Delta pilot caught boozing the preflight

Ed Haywood said:
Showing up hung over or still drunk and "sweating it out" during morning PT used to be a time honored Army and Marine tradition. Maybe the airlines should institute a formation run, followed by showers and breakfast, for aircrew departing Scotland?
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We did that in Thailand one morning. One guy only got out “C-130 rolling down the strip…” next think I know, he drops and spews chunks. Very few finished that run.
 
Sluggo63 said:
Now, since the statute of limitations is probably over, I will say that back in my young Air Force days, there were times that I (and many others) probably broke the 12-hour rule. I'm not going to throw any current military guys under the bus, and I'm sure the culture has changed for the better these days, and military pilots adhere to the 12-hour rule. But, you get a bunch of 20-somethings in charge of other 20-somethings (and younger), put them in England (or Vegas, or Germany) at a pub, and things tend to get carried away. The next day's flight was always a "who's feeling the best? It's your leg then" kinda thing. I'm not proud of it, but it happened.
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*TL;DR warning*
*disclaimer to .civ-only readers, .mil acronym heavy, I'll try to remember to [translate]*


It has got slightly better, a bit milder compared to when I was in their shoes. And I still work with said 20-somethings, so I'm plugged in as a career AETC [training command] critter. I do envy them, I wish I was 25 again, large paycut and all. The specter of this last promotion really hit home for me on that front. Digressing.

In fairness, they're (FAIPS, students et al) [first assignment instructor pilot] less aggressive about it than the MWS [major weapon system] guys, since they still want to get their "fighter", and they know of people burned for messing up during their FAIP tour and derailing their follow-on assignment prospects. Not that there's any guarantee their career will suffer from bad timing on its own anyways, ask me how I know type of thing. The MAF [mobility air force] guys tend to be more rowdy, they feel they have less to lose. This is all anecdotal of course, I don't have statistics on the number of article 15s [type of non-judicial punishment] as a breakdown of fighter vs heavy, nor for all the AETC bases.

Now, the MWS guys for sure still push it up way more on TDY[temporary duty, travel usually]. Hell, when my statute of limitation comes up, I'll tell you how I met my current wife. As to not being proud of being young, well that goes both ways. Here's a story of a tanker 'boy scout,' who I met after the fact when he came to my squadron at the time, while I was still instructing in T6s:

Stationed in Kadena at the time, they go booze it up in that almost-tropical paradise, go inside the 12 hour threshold for their scheduled TO time. What does/would everyone do on the regular? Well according to you and my past experience, they "push through it". Bad right? Well, this young aircraft commander decides to do right by the regulation, and out of an abundance of caution call up and delay his step to the legitimate 12 hour mark of his last consumption, in order to be legal.... Sq/cc Q3s him for-cause. I'm sure the self-important richard probably thought he was saving the war effort by hanging some young O-3.....wait, what war!? It was PACAF [Air Forces Pacific] in the late 00s. I would know, I was ordered there to wither on the vine a little southeast of where our tanker boy scout was; proud lack of cOmBaT time and $3.50 a day joke per diem in a de facto Japanese tourist trap I can vouch for the fact there was the square root of eff all going on. As I've said gentlemen, Tumon Bay was my Vietnam....:fingerwag:

At any rate, for the non-military in the crowd, Q3s are the equivalent of being failed on an FAA checkride or 121 evaluation....except in this case the sq/cc decides to mark the persons FEF [flight evaluation folder, FAA eval record equivalent] with one of these things over a non-flying event not even involving training or flight duties other than not being able to report for the original takeoff time. Almost the equivalent of a DPE sitting on the lobby pink slipping you for illegally parking at the FBO and rush inside because you were late to a non-evaluation training flight with your CFI. Something clearly "worse" than say, attempt to operate the flight hung over inside of 12 hours? Latter which we know does occur, by stipulation.

At any rate, ridiculousness of an action which was meant to be civilian-career-punitive in the first place, when simply NJP [non-judicial punishment] would suffice (LOA, LOR, or even article 15 if the sq/cc was that much of a self-important tightwad), without marking the guy's livelihood for life after the .mil.

So no, it doesn't pay to have integrity; not when your adjudicators are on a political ladder-climbing race. So then, people "push through", and we all lie to our flight doctors....until it's time to collect that VA rating that is. Some safety culture eh? Turns out "rules for thee, not for me" is not an adequate inducement for people to do "the right thing", even in the military. Shocker. Aaaand digressing.

Good news for our tanker guy, today he is a DEN NB CA (has been one for a couple years now) for that airline that just can't get off the news's radar this spring. He even left a military (reserve) retirement on the table by separating early (didn't have to, but was done emotionally with the .mil concept of justice, don't blame him) to move back to CO and start his new life. A big flex, I still think he was being impulsive, but I don't blame him, lord knows he'll live and die a much richer man than me. I'm sure he still laughs at the time when the AF tried to sink him for doing the right thing wrt reporting requirements, over behavior "everyone" was guilty of when they were a young O-2/O-3.

My point being that stories like his are common as day in the military, especially in the heavy command where Q3s are doled out like candy. A culture of Peter principle run amok and toxic leadership, but I'm steering away from the original topic so I'll digress again.

In closing, am I condoning a culture of operating under the influence? Hell no. My criticism of the dynamic is more macro, specifically the command influence double standards, and how it corrupts down the line from a strictly occupational safety angle, which is what I am ultimately interested in. Ditto for archaic fraternization rules, and all matters of admin ancestor worship we incur in the military for ZERO added-value to our combat projection capability or overall readiness. But I'm showing my rebellious Billy Mitchell old man side now, and we know that guy wouldn't have made it past the rank of O-2 in today's military, so digressing for the third time. *mumbles '3 more, just 3 more years....' *. Now get off my lawn. :rofl:
 
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hindsight2020 said:
*TL;DR warning*
*disclaimer to .civ-only readers, .mil acronym heavy, I'll try to remember to [translate]*
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You did well.

I was stationed at CCK, Taichung, Taiwan from late 71-early 73, with a lot of TDY in Vietnam.

At the O-club, beer was ten cents and mixed drinks 25 cents during Happy Hour, after which many of us continued the lubrication at the bars downtown.

D'ya think anyone flew less than 12 hours later?
 
hindsight2020 said:
Tumon Bay was my Vietnam....:fingerwag:
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I mean, if getting strapped to a ship's wheel and being beaten until there's welts on your back doesn't equate to 7 years in the Hanoi Hilton, I don't know what does.

IYKYK

#vikingclubsurvivor
 
Sluggo63 said:
I mean, if getting strapped to a ship's wheel and being beaten until there's welts on your back doesn't equate to 7 years in the Hanoi Hilton, I don't know what does.

IYKYK

#vikingclubsurvivor
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Hafa Adai fellow survivor! We didn't ask, we merely answered the call, and we all returned with Honor..ish....sorta. :biggrin:
 
hindsight2020 said:
*…The MAF [mobility air force] guys tend to be more rowdy..
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To wit, I’ve never heard of a fighter pilot or WSO flying a sortie bare *** naked. Seems like an every other year event in the tanker/transport community though.
 
There’s a reason for that. Have you ever donned speed jeans… uh… my phone’s ringing. I gotta go… never mind.
 
hindsight2020 said:
My point being that stories like his are common as day in the military, especially in the heavy command where Q3s are doled out like candy. A culture of Peter principle run amok and toxic leadership, but I'm steering away from the original topic so I'll digress again.
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And they wonder why so many of us decide to leave. I Survived the Tailhook witch hunt and having worked a TDY as a recorder on a statutory (promotion) and non-statuary (reserve squadron OIC) board and seeing the sausage being made convinced me that what I needed to do was use the Navy as much as it was using me. I managed to stay in the cockpit for 20 years (87-07) and yea, the reserve paycheck I just started getting would have (possibly) been nicer had I stayed after flying but the bureaucracy killed my soul.
 
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TCABM said:
To wit, I’ve never heard of a fighter pilot or WSO flying a sortie bare *** naked. Seems like an every other year event in the tanker/transport community though.
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When someone spills hot coffee on themselves, the only thing they can do is strip down naked. And in the name of crew integrity, everyone else strips down naked so that one crewman/woman doesn't feel awkward being the only naked person in the jet.

It's not weird at all. Trust me. Perfectly normal. Nothing to see here (literally).
 
Sluggo63 said:
When someone spills hot coffee on themselves, the only thing they can do is strip down naked. And in the name of crew integrity, everyone else strips down naked so that one crewman/woman doesn't feel awkward being the only naked person in the jet.

It's not weird at all. Trust me. Perfectly normal. Nothing to see here (literally).
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Those poor souls in the troop seats.
 
I had a ground instructor who flew right seat in Constellations back in the day. He did a lot of flights into Mexico and central America. He would tell us stories, like the time a captain showed up still drunk and had a little Mexican...uh, let's call her a cutie, with him. She claimed to be his wife and wanted to return to Los Angeles with him. Since the rest of the flight crew knew he was already married, they refused her request. Then they promptly tied the captain to his seat so he would not fall out of it.
 
I guess I don't understand the FAA. Here is a professional pilot with a history of alcohol issues, flying, presumably without any on going testing or anything. Meanwhile some guy with a history of a DUI 5 years prior has to go through the whole HIMS workup, go to daily AA meetings, and prove total abstinence with frequent testing for years just to get a 3rd class medical.
 
Stevea621j said:
I guess I don't understand the FAA. Here is a professional pilot with a history of alcohol issues, flying, presumably without any on going testing or anything.…
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I wouldn’t make that presumption considering the pilot in question would have been monitored thru HIMS and his airline OR the pilot had lied on all his previous medical, since he had a history of alcohol related incidents.
 
TCABM said:
I wouldn’t make that presumption considering the pilot in question would have been monitored thru HIMS and his airline OR the pilot had lied on all his previous medical, since he had a history of alcohol related incidents.
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True, but if he was going through random testing he would have to be pretty lucky to keep drinking and not come up positive at some point over the past year.
 
I don’t know if randoms are all that effective. 12 years I’ve had only two. Last one I came in for last minute shift on my day off. Kick in the nuts there. Really for some guys they just need to do reasonable suspicion drug tests on a regular basis.
 
Velocity173 said:
I don’t know if randoms are all that effective. 12 years I’ve had only two. Last one I came in for last minute shift on my day off. Kick in the nuts there. Really for some guys they just need to do reasonable suspicion drug tests on a regular basis.
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You must not work at my shop; I've had 2 this year alone. So much for random. This make-work self-licking ice cream cone we call DoD contracting. Keeps the San Antonio area critters fat and overpaid. I finally understood what they meant by 'thank you for your service'....at least with onlyFans I'd be getting paid for the non-consensual nudity. Digressing. :biggrin:
 
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TCABM said:
I wouldn’t make that presumption considering the pilot in question would have been monitored thru HIMS and his airline OR the pilot had lied on all his previous medical, since he had a history of alcohol related incidents.
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Then it doesn't seem to work.
 
Lindberg said:
Then it doesn't seem to work.
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Or the pilot, like most other addicts relapsed. The program is effective, but not absolutely effective. Something better than 80% effective, iirc.

But the only way to he totally effective is to summarily execute pilots at their first alcohol related incident. Then they won’t have to worry about a relapse.
 
TCABM said:
But the only way to he totally effective is to summarily execute pilots at their first alcohol related incident. Then they won’t have to worry about a relapse.
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Have you suggested that to OKC?
 
Velocity173 said:
I don’t know if randoms are all that effective. 12 years I’ve had only two.
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I can't count the number of randoms I have had.

Real fun times doing a random in BF Alaska...a pilot needs to jumpseat to Anchorage, pee in a cup, then jumpseat back. Pretty much an all day ordeal, especially since I would do a little shopping, ship some groceries (alcohol included) back to myself and then a trip to my favorite steak house. And by then, wouldn't you know it, the last flight to BF Alaska is full, darn it, so I would have to spend the night in ANC...
 
StraightnLevel said:
Are these randoms driven by your employer or the FAA?
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They’re part of the testing requirements set forth by the FAA, but the program is administered by the company. They’re theoretically set up to randomly check a certain percentage every year, but with small operators it can get pretty skewed.
 
StraightnLevel said:
Are these randoms driven by your employer or the FAA?
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Employer. Now in the military I had annual “randoms.” I don’t think any of those were actually kept secret though. Only way you’re gonna catch your abusers is to have regular truly no notice tests.
 
Are we still talking about alcohol? I’ve never heard of random testing for that. Urine wouldn’t be useful, so is there such a thing as a random breathalyzer? A random blood draw? Seems the union would balk at blood draws.

If you want to catch narcotic abusers, skip the urine and go straight to hair.
 
OneCharlieTango said:
Are we still talking about alcohol? I’ve never heard of random testing for that. Urine wouldn’t be useful, so is there such a thing as a random breathalyzer? A random blood draw? Seems the union would balk at blood draws.

If you want to catch narcotic abusers, skip the urine and go straight to hair.
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Randoms for us are urinalysis and a breathalyzer.
 
Yes, there are random breathalyzers administered under 14cfr120, which states the faa will follow 49cfr40, which is a program for “safety sensitive” positions.

Now….

49cfr40 is reasonably robust, and contains leverage for an employer should you violate this, and protections for the employee, both come in the form of medical review, proper administration of the program and tests, and reasonably well studied and reliable tests.

Ironically, already identified pilots, those in HIMS, don’t comply with 49cfr40 or 14cfr120. They are subjected to junk tests that confirm neither compliance or non-compliance.

This delta guy was most likely an “old school” hims guy not monitored by hims protocol at the time. The safety sensitive monitoring allows for “just cause” tests, meaning suspicion, and that test follows the 49cfr40 protocol. Trained technicians, calibrated instruments, chain of custody, vetted assay, etc.

Someone saw something, just cause test, the rest is history.
 
OneCharlieTango said:
Are we still talking about alcohol? I’ve never heard of random testing for that. Urine wouldn’t be useful, so is there such a thing as a random breathalyzer? A random blood draw? Seems the union would balk at blood draws.

If you want to catch narcotic abusers, skip the urine and go straight to hair.
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Blood draw is done after an accident. Randoms are just breathalyzer and urine.
 
OneCharlieTango said:
Are we still talking about alcohol? I’ve never heard of random testing for that. Urine wouldn’t be useful, so is there such a thing as a random breathalyzer? A random blood draw? Seems the union would balk at blood draws.

If you want to catch narcotic abusers, skip the urine and go straight to hair.
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Part of the HIMS program is usually random urine testing approximately monthly which is different than just the random testing done by an employer on everybody. They test for metabolytes of alcohol that will be present for days after alcohol has been ingested. They are not concerned with a BAC since a HIMS program usually requires complete abstinence. To me he would have to be pretty lucky not to get caught. Thats why I questioned whether he was forced to undergo the usual regiment imposed on the typical HIMS participant trying to get a 3rd class medical.
 
Tools said:
This delta guy was most likely an “old school” hims guy not monitored by hims protocol at the time. The safety sensitive monitoring allows for “just cause” tests, meaning suspicion, and that test follows the 49cfr40 protocol. Trained technicians, calibrated instruments, chain of custody, vetted assay, etc.

Someone saw something, just cause test, the rest is history.
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Bear in mind he was busted in Edinburgh. US laws and FAA regs and processes have nothing to do with this particular bust.
 
Hims required that random testing for 3 years typically for the first 40 years, then it went to 7 years.

Cheating that testing would be easy if you can control your drinking. If you can’t, you WILL be caught. It’s a “random” thing. 12 kt submarines walk away from 300 kt jets EVERY TIME using random.

He likely was past those HIMS requirements. The irony is that the USA wouldn’t test him until AFTER the flight, so would never be caught.
 
ateamer said:
Well, if ATF is involved you can bet they’ll f it up, and in spectacular fashion.
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Probably. I believe their process for aviation-related matters is to kick the door in at sunrise and shoot people.
 
Half Fast said:
Probably. I believe their process for aviation-related matters is to kick the door in at sunrise and shoot people.
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To be fair, that’s their standard process when serving warrants. Everything else is an exception.

For example, if a dog is present, shoot dog, then shoot people.
 
TCABM said:
To be fair, that’s their standard process when serving warrants. Everything else is an exception.

For example, if a dog is present, shoot dog, then shoot people.
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To be even fairer, I don’t think they shoot kittens. Those they stomp to death.
 
Sluggo63 said:
Now, since the statute of limitations is probably over, I will say that back in my young Air Force days, there were times that I (and many others) probably broke the 12-hour rule. I'm not going to throw any current military guys under the bus, and I'm sure the culture has changed for the better these days, and military pilots adhere to the 12-hour rule. But, you get a bunch of 20-somethings in charge of other 20-somethings (and younger), put them in England (or Vegas, or Germany) at a pub, and things tend to get carried away. The next day's flight was always a "who's feeling the best? It's your leg then" kinda thing. I'm not proud of it, but it happened.
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I never busted the time limit. But did once or twice chug the rest of a drink with 10 seconds to go.


Gilbert Buettner said:
You did well.

I was stationed at CCK, Taichung, Taiwan from late 71-early 73, with a lot of TDY in Vietnam.

At the O-club, beer was ten cents and mixed drinks 25 cents during Happy Hour, after which many of us continued the lubrication at the bars downtown.

D'ya think anyone flew less than 12 hours later?
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I beseech every deity there is to NEVER allow caffeine to be a banned, heck controlled, substance! It’s literally my only vice. If you measured it on the same scale as alcohol, yes I realize it isn’t, .24 would be just hitting functional for me. I have a coffee pot next to the bed timed to be ready when the alarm goes off, drink half a pot before clearing the door, hit the first coffee spot on the way to work, and of course have ready access to it all day.

At least I can say other than occasionally frustrating me a bit with touch screens in the plane, it hasn’t been an issue. Don’t have to worry about falling asleep in flight either! Not giving Drunky McPilot a pass. Anyone who would do that is a huge bag of suck!
 
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