Defective alternator cost

Dave Siciliano

Dave Siciliano

Final Approach
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Dave Siciliano
Just got our P Baron through the annual; during it, we replaced an alternator on a prophylactic basis (for the benefit of one of the guys from OK--replaced before it broke) <g>.

The mechanic installed the new alternator and it shorted out. Burned out the voltage regulator. The mechanic sent it back to the vendor who paid shipping and replaced the defective part. Said it must have occurred during shipping.

So, we get a bill for $706.21. Just over $400 for the labor for removal and replacement, of the new voltage regulator part and 2.5 hours labor to remove the defective alternator and replace it with the new one.

IMO, the mechanic did the work and should get paid, but the vendor refuses to do anything more than replace the part. Even though the defective part burned out the voltage regulator and caused the additional labor to be required and the vendor's rep admitted it would have burned out the voltage regulator with the defect he saw after we returned it.

So, how would y'all approach this issue? At this point, we have disputed the additional charges and withheld payment.

Best,

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
So, how would y'all approach this issue? At this point, we have disputed the additional charges and withheld payment.
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Contact an attorney and ask them to draft a nice letter for you to send to the vendor outlining what will happen if you do not at receive adequate satisfaction for their defective part.
 
And the lesson here boys and girls is "If it ain't broke...." :D
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Just got our P Baron through the annual; during it, we replaced an alternator on a prophylactic basis (for the benefit of one of the guys from OK--replaced before it broke) <g>.

The mechanic installed the new alternator and it shorted out. Burned out the voltage regulator. The mechanic sent it back to the vendor who paid shipping and replaced the defective part. Said it must have occurred during shipping.

So, we get a bill for $706.21. Just over $400 for the labor for removal and replacement, of the new voltage regulator part and 2.5 hours labor to remove the defective alternator and replace it with the new one.

IMO, the mechanic did the work and should get paid, but the vendor refuses to do anything more than replace the part. Even though the defective part burned out the voltage regulator and caused the additional labor to be required and the vendor's rep admitted it would have burned out the voltage regulator with the defect he saw after we returned it.

So, how would y'all approach this issue? At this point, we have disputed the additional charges and withheld payment.

Best,

Dave
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If it's Kelly Aerospace, you're just screwed. And if you don't pay, you screw the FBO.

Sigh.
 
bbchien said:
If it's Kelly Aerospace, you're just screwed. And if you don't pay, you screw the FBO.

Sigh.
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I was about to say "Sounds like Kelly".

You buy an alternator from somebody that makes a PMA replacement.
 
It wasn't Kelly guys. It was a shop that rebuilds them in OK. Anyway, I've gotten quite a bit of feed back on the Beechlist and Avsig. The theme through all of it is my shop shouldn't be billing me for this. Some say help the shop, but the shop actually marked up the voltage regular and alternator to me; I should at least have them write off labor and the mark up. Most folks feel the error is completely theirs unless I provided the parts or specified the vendor. As a matter of fact, we previously agreed upon another vendor (after some bad experiences on my A-36). That vendor didn't have it; so, the shop went to another one without checking with me.

Best,

Dave
 
Someone posted a more reputable source for aircraft alternators on one of the boards, but I forget which.
 
smigaldi said:
Ain't that the truth. But I do hate waiting until something does fail to fix it. If I know it is going bad I try to stay proactive and replace it before the failure.
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Mike Busch's latest article on AvWeb has a good strategy for this sort of thing. I can't find a link right now tho because AvWeb seems to be down.

Alternator on a single: Replace before it goes, unless you really want to potentially be in IMC with no electrical power when it does go.

Alternators on a twin (assuming both sides have 'em): Wait 'til they fail, as long as you have the ability to tell when one has failed.

Edit: AvWeb back up. The article on Reliability-Centered Maintenance is here: http://www.avweb.com/news/savvyavia...ity-centered_maintenance_part_1_195709-1.html
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Mike Busch's latest article on AvWeb has a good strategy for this sort of thing. I can't find a link right now tho because AvWeb seems to be down.

Alternator on a single: Replace before it goes, unless you really want to potentially be in IMC with no electrical power when it does go.

Alternators on a twin (assuming both sides have 'em): Wait 'til they fail, as long as you have the ability to tell when one has failed.

Edit: AvWeb back up. The article on Reliability-Centered Maintenance is here: http://www.avweb.com/news/savvyavia...ity-centered_maintenance_part_1_195709-1.html
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I hate to say I don't always agree with Mike, but I don't! Depends a lot on your mission and how much you want the plane dispatchable. In my plane, the vacuum pump must be replaced before it fails (specified hour limit) to keep the K-ice cert. You saw where my recent trip took me with three teenage nieces. I don't want to be replacing an alternator on a trip to the Bahamas even if I could get a just a bit more out of it. Having parts ferried there while we miss our reservations in other places just doesn't work for me. And, I can control the quality of the repair at home; not there. In this case, a defective alternator was dispatched; where would I be if I was stuck on Treasure Cay and this happened? I flew four instrument approaches on this trip to near minimums; flew through icing conditions on three occasions. Bottom line, I want it to work and I want back up systems working.

If I was flying short local flights, and was home each night, I'd feel differently. And, it's just my luck when one failed, the back up would have an issue. Anyway, we repair before it breaks. ABS strongly recommends it and it is required to keep certain certifications like the K-ice in my plane. Last thing I want on vacation with my nieces in another country is to break down at a facility with poor facilities.

Best,

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
I hate to say I don't always agree with Mike, but I don't! Depends a lot on your mission and how much you want the plane dispatchable. In my plane, the vacuum pump must be replaced before it fails (specified hour limit) to keep the K-ice
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Dave,

Interesting. Btw, my example was not a quote from the article. The article is about coming up with a maintenance program that works for you and your plane.

Good point on the foreign mx too. I've never had the opportunity to worry about such things. ;)
 
Dave Siciliano said:
It wasn't Kelly guys. It was a shop that rebuilds them in OK. Anyway, I've gotten quite a bit of feed back on the Beechlist and Avsig. The theme through all of it is my shop shouldn't be billing me for this. Some say help the shop, but the shop actually marked up the voltage regular and alternator to me; I should at least have them write off labor and the mark up. Most folks feel the error is completely theirs unless I provided the parts or specified the vendor. As a matter of fact, we previously agreed upon another vendor (after some bad experiences on my A-36). That vendor didn't have it; so, the shop went to another one without checking with me.

Best,

Dave
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Based on your comments in this post I'd demand that the entire cost of the second install, regulator, and any repairs necessitated by the failure of the first alternator. The shop can negotiate with their vendor WRT their portion of the damages. While it's true that most of the blame should be laid at the feet of the rebuilder of the first alternator, your shop chose them and therefore must live with the consequences. And they could have tested the alternator before installation and prevented the whole mess.
 
Dave:

Not a high-altitude pilot, but have a little legal training. (grin)

As I understand it, entire transaction was through this shop, i.e., you hired the work done and bought all parts through the shop, correct.

Assuming this, it is their nut... and I would expect them to want to handle it.

OBTW, do I know this shop?
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Dave,

Interesting. Btw, my example was not a quote from the article. The article is about coming up with a maintenance program that works for you and your plane.

Good point on the foreign mx too. I've never had the opportunity to worry about such things. ;)
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Kent:

I went back and re read Mike's article and must apologize for blurting off a quick reply to your previous post. I appreciate you posting it. Chalk my previous response up to trying to get on here in the middle of the business day with some demanding bus. stuff in process.

In general, I really like Mike's stuff and follow a lot of it. Then, there is specific stuff that is unique to my situation. That's where I sometimes disagree.

In the instant case, I knew I was heading to places where I didn't want any down time if it could be reasonably avoided for reasons previously discussed. In general, I do agree with Mike's proposal and do follow it. That's why I'm replacing some critical items at specific time points. In the case of an alternator, 500 hours is the target. We don't take the plane off line at that time, but note it and the next time any significant maintenance is performed, the alternator is replaced. In this case, the existing one had near 700 hours on it. The vacuum pumps are a bit different. There is an advisory on it that specifies the number of hours that can be on those to maintain the K-ice cert. on my plane. Since K-ice is a big reason I went to the P-Baron, I like to have that cert. in place; especially on my big annual trip where I really do use all the capabilities of this wonderful plane.

Thanks again for posting the link. I see you were supporting the approach we take and appreciate the imput.

BTW, my niece Lindsay says she has finally linked up with Kate for a flight with her! Look forward to seeing y'all again. I'll try to keep the KS in my tail number clear for you <g>

Best,

Dave
 
SCCutler said:
Dave:

Not a high-altitude pilot, but have a little legal training. (grin)

As I understand it, entire transaction was through this shop, i.e., you hired the work done and bought all parts through the shop, correct.

Assuming this, it is their nut... and I would expect them to want to handle it.

OBTW, do I know this shop?
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Thanks Spike! I appreciate the legal insight. I'm disappointed he billed it in the manner he did. We've had a discussion since then and he is backing up a bit. As you know, besides the legal side, there is the relationship and it's management. We are writing a letter stating our position and have withheld payment. We hope he can go back to the vendor and get more relief. We're talking to some other folks in the bus whose opinions we'll consider.

Best,

Dave
 
lancefisher said:
Based on your comments in this post I'd demand that the entire cost of the second install, regulator, and any repairs necessitated by the failure of the first alternator. The shop can negotiate with their vendor WRT their portion of the damages. While it's true that most of the blame should be laid at the feet of the rebuilder of the first alternator, your shop chose them and therefore must live with the consequences. And they could have tested the alternator before installation and prevented the whole mess.
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Thanks Lance! That's what we're thinking.

Best,

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Thanks Lance! That's what we're thinking.

Best,

Dave
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Similiar experience with a rebuild of a DG. In the end the shop offered to split the extra costs with me. Technically it was all their issue with their vendor however, I wanted to keep a good relationship with this shop. In the past I had gotten free stuff from them and there was no reason to see this stopping in the future unless I decided to push the issue. Then I am sure I would have been fairly charged each and every time I needed something and in the end I would have paid more than had I just given them half the extra cost. Which BTW was only $60. That is something to consider too.
 
lancefisher said:
Based on your comments in this post I'd demand that the entire cost of the second install, regulator, and any repairs necessitated by the failure of the first alternator. The shop can negotiate with their vendor WRT their portion of the damages. While it's true that most of the blame should be laid at the feet of the rebuilder of the first alternator, your shop chose them and therefore must live with the consequences. And they could have tested the alternator before installation and prevented the whole mess.
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I agree with Lance on this one. Just like any other repair - air conditioner, car, whatever - where the shop installs a defective part, there is an implied warranty. Why aviation tries not to work this way, I don't know, but I'd lay it on the feet of the shop for the labor. In the worst case, they ought to seriously discount the labor.
 
Re: Defective alternator cost, my 2 cents worth

If I bring something (Car, Boat, Motorcycle, radio, sewing machine, whatever) to a professional (ie, this is the business I'm in) service place, and something else gets broke during their service, it's their problem, not mine. Don't charge ME to fix YOUR mistakes ... not even the labor.

If it's something wrong with the part YOU supplied to service MY machine that caused the problem, then it's double YOUR problem, not mine. If you have to "recover" from costs from somebody thats fine, so long as that somebody isn't me.
 
Collateral damage during maintenance/repairs/mods

and something else gets broke during their service, it's their problem, not mine.
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For the most part this is reasonable and I agree with it.

The only time I would disagree with it is in an older plane, or one that has not been 'kept up'. I have worked on some planes that I was afraid to touch anything because the wires/scat/hoses were so old and decrepit. Ie you go in to change an oil filter and brush against a 45 yr old scat tube and it disintegrates to powder.....is that really my fault? I say that scat tube is well beyond its service life at that age, and should have been replaced earlier. A normal scat tube should be able to tolerate a gentle brushing of a hand. Or, you are changing the plugs, and simply flexing the plug lead out of the way results in the insulation cracking/falling apart; you know now it hasn't been changed in a dog's age. Is that really the mech's fault, does he owe you a new harness to replace this pitifully aged one?? Alternator wires is another one in older airplanes; often very little strength left in the wires or the terminal crimp, a slight bump and next flight the owner is complaining the mech caused him an electrical failure over an oil filter change. Not the whole story in my book, if that part of the airplane is aged and/or neglected. Panel wiring is another. Think its easy to get behind some of those panels, work around 30yrs of rats' nest (loosely described as a wiring harness) from dozens of modifications often unapproved, without disturbing one of those faulty crimped unions or connections?
Sometimes the mech is doing you a favor by finding and replacing stuff that you or the previous mech has let go. Should you place the blame on him.... or thank him for finding this stuff?


Kind of a thread drift from the original problem, sorry Dave.
 
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I had the engine overhaul done on my Warrior. At the time and since the plane was going to be down for some time, the mech couldn't come up with a date (going back 1500 hours in the engine log) for the last alternator which he says is a 500 hour service. So we replaced what had been a perfectly fine piece of equipment. On the flight test of the new engine (plus alt, plus prop), with but 15 miles to go, I suffered my first, albeit minor, inflight failure... yup, ALTERNATOR.
Sometimes it just doesn't pay to do what's right.
 
Re: Collateral damage during maintenance/repairs/mods

Dave,

I agree with your points below.

However, if you ever worked on anything I owned you would understand very quickly that none of that would be a problem. I have made it a point to buy quality equipment, and then take care of it. As a result, I don't buy "major" things all that often.

Case in point ... the 1972 Honda CB-500/4 I rode from 1978 to 1998 (150K+ miles), the 1989 Ford Probe GT (Turbocharged) that I just recently gave away, with 244K miles on it, still on the orig clutch, the HeathKit Receiver I built in HS in 1972, which is still right here in my office ... etc, etc.

Let'sgoflying! said:
For the most part this is reasonable and I agree with it.

The only time I would disagree with it is in an older plane, or one that has not been 'kept up'. I have worked on some planes that I was afraid to touch anything because the wires/scat/hoses were so old and decrepit. Ie you go in to change an oil filter and brush against a 45 yr old scat tube and it disintegrates to powder.....is that really my fault? I say that scat tube is well beyond its service life at that age, and should have been replaced earlier. A normal scat tube should be able to tolerate a gentle brushing of a hand. Or, you are changing the plugs, and simply flexing the plug lead out of the way results in the insulation cracking/falling apart; you know now it hasn't been changed in a dog's age. Is that really the mech's fault, does he owe you a new harness to replace this pitifully aged one?? Alternator wires is another one in older airplanes; often very little strength left in the wires or the terminal crimp, a slight bump and next flight the owner is complaining the mech caused him an electrical failure over an oil filter change. Not the whole story in my book, if that part of the airplane is aged and/or neglected. Panel wiring is another. Think its easy to get behind some of those panels, work around 30yrs of rats' nest (loosely described as a wiring harness) from dozens of modifications often unapproved, without disturbing one of those faulty crimped unions or connections?
Sometimes the mech is doing you a favor by finding and replacing stuff that you or the previous mech has let go. Should you place the blame on him.... or thank him for finding this stuff?


Kind of a thread drift from the original problem, sorry Dave.
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Re: Collateral damage during maintenance/repairs/mods

Just for clarification, Brett - my post was not a counter to yours: I did want to add that one exception to your very good rule, however. I am sure your stuff is excellent. Probably better than my own!

mgkdrgn said:
Dave,
I agree with your points below.
However, if you ever worked on anything I owned you would understand very quickly that none of that would be a problem.
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