Declaring an emergency

AuntPeggy

AuntPeggy

Final Approach
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Would you declare an emergency?
Would you go back to Runway 29 or opt for the closer Runway 24?
Would you stop next to the waiting fire truck?
Would you park next to another aircraft on the ramp?

Questions added since the original post:
Would you put a camera there?
Would you post the video on You Tube?
Would you simply continue the flight?
Does it make a difference whether the aircraft is high-wing or low-wing?
Does it make a difference that the plane is recent or older vintage?
In declaring an emergency, what would you say?
Would it make a difference if there were passengers?
 
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my only comment is that I'm surprised to see a camera mounted on a balanced control surface
 
I personally would not have declared in that situation.

Having said that, there really is no harm in doing so. I will not second guess the PIC's actions in this situation.
 
JHW said:
my only comment is that I'm surprised to see a camera mounted on a balanced control surface
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Exactly what I was thinking. I don't have a problem with sticking them outside but not on a control surface.
 
Cirrus pilots are spoiled. Cessnas have really leaky doors and we think something is wrong if we don't smell fuel. Then its time to check the cutoff valve! The only time we know how much fuel we have based on the guages is when the tanks are empty, we can't pull a 'chute if we hear a stutter in the engine, and forget about a British woman calling out altitudes for us! So yeah, maybe a bit of an overreaction from the pilot, but I suppose better safe than sorry.

If you read the description, the smell was caused by exhaust fumes entering through the door that had a slightly faulty latch.
 
Would you declare an emergency?
Hard to say, depends!
Would you go back to Runway 29 or opt for the closer Runway 24?
Depends, didn't seem too urgent!
Would you stop next to the waiting fire truck?
No
Would you park next to another aircraft on the ramp?
Sure

Questions added since the original post:
Would you put a camera there?
Looks like it takes nice angle, sure.
Would you post the video on You Tube?
No
Would you simply continue the flight?
Depends. Hard to say without seeing what he seen.
Does it make a difference whether the aircraft is high-wing or low-wing?
No
Does it make a difference that the plane is recent or older vintage?
No
In declaring an emergency, what would you say?
Same as him.
Would it make a difference if there were passengers? ____No______________
 
ebykowsky said:
Cirrus pilots are spoiled. Cessnas have really leaky doors and we think something is wrong if we don't smell fuel. Then its time to check the cutoff valve! The only time we know how much fuel we have based on the guages is when the tanks are empty, we can't pull a 'chute if we hear a stutter in the engine, and forget about a British woman calling out altitudes for us! So yeah, maybe a bit of an overreaction from the pilot, but I suppose better safe than sorry.

If you read the description, the smell was caused by exhaust fumes entering through the door that had a slightly faulty latch.
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Yeah in the rental 172 I've been flying it's normal to catch a whiff of gas between engine startup and the runway. I had always assumed it to be either some leftover residue in the sump cup or unburned fuel in the exhaust from running full rich.
 
If I had left a pin disengaged my gull wing doors would exit the plane at 85-90 kts.

There did not appear to be that much traffic, so giving me priority to return should be no problem without declaring an emergency. I would land without touching any switches other than PTT. This is just one reason why everyone should practice no flap landings. I would immediately open all fresh air intakes. After landing below 10 kts I would open both gull-wing doors 3-4". I would taxi to the ramp, away from other aircraft, fuel trucks and buildings. I would shut down with mixture, close fuel valve, turn off ignition switch and leave everything else alone until my family deplaned. Then exit myself and shut everything else down from outside. I have seen the results of "a fuel smell in the cockpit, selecting flaps up and explosion upon exiting the runway."

The camera is mounted on several Cirri in that same location. As long as the control surface is balanced to mfr specs, it is fine. I do not and will not post on you tube.
 
Would you declare an emergency? No, but would ahve returned
Would you go back to Runway 29 or opt for the closer Runway 24? Neither, would have circled til I was at 2000+feet(i think that is the height for chute deployment) and slowed to chute deployment velocity and pulled the chute. Just kidding. Gone to the active runway 29.
Would you stop next to the waiting fire truck? Not unless I was on fire, then it's time for marshmallows
Would you park next to another aircraft on the ramp? Sure why not.

Questions added since the original post:
Would you put a camera there? No. If there was a investigation and the camera was found, there is too much uncertainty as to what the FAA would do. There is an article in the February 2013 edition of EAA Sport Pilot about this very thing.
Would you post the video on You Tube? No. I do not put any of my videos on You Tube
Would you simply continue the flight? If I felt something was not optimal I would have landed and figured out the issue and then continued the flight.
Does it make a difference whether the aircraft is high-wing or low-wing?I do not know. I cannot think of a reason it should make a difference, except in a low wing I guess you could easily see if you left a cap off.
Does it make a difference that the plane is recent or older vintage? Not sure it would.
In declaring an emergency, what would you say? KXXX tower, this is Plane Whatever N12345 I have a whatever the reason for emergency was and would like to declare an emergency. ( or I would like to declare an emergency because_____)
Would it make a difference if there were passengers? No
 
Would you declare an emergency? Yes.
Would you go back to Runway 29 or opt for the closer Runway 24? 24 unless winds were a serious problem.
Would you stop next to the waiting fire truck? absolutely not. if real fire or explosion, you've just involved the fire truck.
Would you park next to another aircraft on the ramp? Nope. same reason as the fire truck.

Questions added since the original post:
Would you put a camera there? As Jeff Wright pointed out - on a moving & balanced control surface is stupid.
Would you post the video on You Tube? maybe, maybe not.
Would you simply continue the flight? no.
Does it make a difference whether the aircraft is high-wing or low-wing? no.
Does it make a difference that the plane is recent or older vintage? no.
In declaring an emergency, what would you say? mayday mayday mayday, Nxxx declaring emergency.
Would it make a difference if there were passengers? no
 
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I'm surprised he didn't pull the chute...


Edit: And no...I certainly would not have declared for that.
 
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I see nothing wrong with this pilot's response to an unusual situation.

As others have pointed out, the smell of fuel in the cockpit isn't abnormal for Cezzna/Pipers. Of course, what we don't know is how STRONG the smell was. If it smelled like an open bucket of 100LL, well, yeah, that's an emergency. If it was a "whiff", well, he probably over-reacted.

As for the comment about the pilot's poor communication skills, I blame the controller for not listening. You shouldn't be made to declare an emergency three times.

Uploading this to YouTube seems sketchy, especially given the camera placement.
 
Would you declare an emergency? Depends on how strong the smell is. For a strong smell of fuel, yes.

Would you go back to Runway 29 or opt for the closer Runway 24? If I were concerned enough to declare an emergency, I would want to get on the ground and would consider RWY 11 if long enough considering any tailwind.

Would you stop next to the waiting fire truck? No. I would clear the active then stop, shut it down, and get out of the airplane. Is there an emergency here or isn't there? If there is enough concern to declare an emergency, I am not driving the airplane around.

Would you park next to another aircraft on the ramp? See above.
 
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This isn't an "I'm on fire and need to be on the ground in seconds" emergency, I'd come around for the wind preferential runway rather than taking a downwind or crosswind landing just because it was closer.

Absent flames, or fuel pouring out, I see nothing wrong with getting it off the movement area.

I do agree, if I were to make a dubious modification like sticking a gopro to a control surface like this, I'd not call it to the FAA's attention by putting it on youtube.

I picked up my plane after the appalachian-american mechanics had worked on the alternator. Shortly after takeoff (500 feet or so) I see a wisp of smoke and have the smell of electrical burning. I tell the tower I'm coming back into land and shutting the master off. This was a MRB and by the time I'd made it to downwind, the entire ANG CFR detachment is blasting down the taxiway to the approach end of the runway. I land and roll out and they chase me down to the first turn off I can make.

At this point I call the tower and tell them I really don't need the assistance. The tower suggests I just shutdown there and let them check me out. I was just afraid they'd get all gung ho and drown me in AFFF.

It was pretty much a non-event. I learned later when I was doing some FF training with the BWI fire crew, that in order to be effective in a fire on a landing/crashed jet, the crews need to respond within 30 seconds. I no longer worry about them jumping the gun to try to make sure they make that sort of response time.

I was IFR (on top) when my engine developed a miss. We were right over LYH so I told approach I wanted to go there. They cleared me and told me I could stay high as long as I want. I broke out to find LYH's equipment waiting for me. I let them know that it wasn't going to be needed.

The only times I've ever had an "emergency" to declare, there hasn't been anyone to declare it to. I had a double mag failure at FDK (decades ago before the tower) and I blew a cylinder at OKV.
 
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flyingron said:
Absent flames, or fuel pouring out, I see nothing wrong with getting it off the movement area.
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You do not know this until you get out and look. I have had at least two vehicles catch on fire while I was driving them, one from a fuel leak and one from an ATF line failure. If I smell fuel strongly, then I am stopping. I am not waiting for it to light up.
 
I won't second guess the pilot, I don't know what he smelled. A possible fuel leak is certainly worthy of declaring an emergency. I won't second guess runway selection either, it appears it was gusty and right down 29. No need for a downwind landing with a functional engine.

I think his communications could have been more clear, but communication has low priority in a high task-saturated environment.

I'll assume his camera installation was approved and legal unless I have proof otherwise. I'm not an FAA inspector, I'm not a cirrus expert--I'll let someone else worry about that.
 
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Checklist..

Everyone lived? Check.
Plane landed safely? Check.
No damage to aircraft? Check.
No rules/laws apparently broken? Check.
Nobody apparently costed $ or time? Check.

Seems like his decisions and actions were good then.
 
I am not taking this exercise at a critique of what that pilot did. We do not know all the variables there anyway. I am simply taking it a survey of what I would do if I smelled fuel in the cockpit.
 
alfadog said:
I am not taking this exercise at a critique of what that pilot did. We do not know all the variables there anyway. I am simply taking it a survey of what I would do if I smelled fuel in the cockpit.
Click to expand...

If it was out of the ordinary I would simply turn back, if my fuel pressure or gauges were effected then I would declare a situation.

If I felt that I was in imminent danger I would declare an emergency.
 
AuntPeggy said:
Would you declare an emergency?
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No... maybe a Pan-Pan, although explaining it in common English would have probably been enough. But the PIC explained it clearly, and erring on the side of caution was not uncalled-for here.

Would you go back to Runway 29 or opt for the closer Runway 24?
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Whatever's closest, but forget the wind- if fire or smoke is waiting in the wings, I just want a runway in front of me.

Would you stop next to the waiting fire truck?
Click to expand...
Absolutely.
Would you park next to another aircraft on the ramp?
Click to expand...
I would try to avoid that, unless the fire truck was right there.

Would you put a camera there?
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No way. I'm sure it's tiny and properly mounted, but it is a balanced control surface, and a pretty critical one. How many ounces at what station is enough to induce flutter with that airplane at such-and-such speed? I don't know, but if I never stick something on a control surface that is critically balanced, I'll never have to find out.

Would you post the video on You Tube?
Click to expand...
Given the previous question: No! Messing with balanced control surfaces is not only stupid, it's against regs. The FAA has more to say about camera mounts in general, but this one is pretty obvious. If there is possibly an STC for this setup, though, I apologize.
Would you simply continue the flight?
Click to expand...
I don't know these airplanes, but if it was unusually fumey, I would come back for a precautionary landing.
I've only made one precautionary call as PIC. I didn't even say "Pan-Pan", because it was pretty silly... stuck pitot cover flap on a Champ on takeoff... I was able to chop and drop it right back on the runway, climb out on the taxiway while idling, and flick it free. I could have done just fine without the ASI that day, but I was new to the type and I didn't want to continue without it. If it had happened while I was out and about, I'd have just carried on, and enjoyed the challenge. But an inop ASI in a Champ is not critical, really.

Does it make a difference whether the aircraft is high-wing or low-wing?
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No. Gravity or pump-fed, there should be a shutoff (which you should immediately shut off if you suspect fuel is leaking). If there is an electric pump, you should shut it off.
Come to think of it, unless you can see that it's a leak prior to the valve (like a missing tank cap or wing tank leak, etc), away from the engine, you should secure the engine. that means an engine-out landing, but hey, at least you won't be burning while doing it. And if a wing is on fire, well, the question is maybe "wood spar or metal spar?" Aluminum burns quite nicely, but usually slower than wood. Especially old dry wood.

Does it make a difference that the plane is recent or older vintage?
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I don't think so. If you are making the call to land immediately, your decision depends only on what seems abnormal to you for that aircraft.

In declaring an emergency, what would you say?
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Assuming I'm officially declaring and I'm the PIC in this Cirrus, I'd say "Maydaymaydaymayday N-number fuel malfunction returning immediately to land." Or something like that. :D


Would it make a difference if there were passengers?
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For me, it would just be a psychological factor that I would just have to set aside so I could think clearly. But an abort is an abort... I'm a "women and children first" kinda guy, but in a light airplane crash, that doesn't matter much.
 
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I think declaring was the right choice, especially if fire/rescue was available or there was any other traffic in the area that might have delayed the Cirrus's landing. Way better to be on the ground with fire trucks rolling without a fire than the other way around.
 
Brad Z said:
I won't second guess the pilot, I don't know what he smelled.
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If it was a smell that didn't exist before YES it bears looking into. It's one thing to fly an old clapped out trainer than has stunk of 100LL for the past 20 years. It's another when a smell develops in a couple of year old airplane that didn't exist before.

Perhaps he just forgot and left the fuel sampler in his pocket. Perhaps the fuel selector sprung a leak. You don't know.

Many years ago, I pulled the plane out of the maintenance hangar after annual. I hopped in and flew it around for about twenty minutes and landed. I opened up the cowling and we gave it a quick inspection looking for leaks. Nothing found.

The next morning we departed VKX for Oshkosh. Margy was flying and she's negotiating with IAD for flight following and the class B transition. I'm staring at the fuel gauge which is no longer reading full. I was fairly sure I filled the tanks (though on the Navion it is possible to appear to top them when they are not but I've not made that mistake since right after I bought the thing). I tell the PIC and say I'll keep an eye on it.

IAD had just cleared us in when I decided, yes the fuel guage is noticably going down. We divert to Leesburg and roll out on the ramp. Now we had had the boost pump changed during annual so we figure that's got to be what the issue is. I run off to find a mechanic. By the time I got one and head back to the plane Margy has disassembled the bottom cowl (this is how you get to it). The mechanic asks how I got her to do that. I told him she just finished doing the annual. We kick the boost pump on and fuel starts spraying not from the boost pump itself but one of the fuel line fittings on the engine driven pump. Turns out the line was only on finger tight. We snug it up and the leak is gone. I top of the tanks and away we go (watching for further abnormal fuel consumption).

We went through 20 gallons in 20 minutes of flying. The 60 GPH fuel burn with 3/4 of that being sprayed around the cowl and blowing out around the exhaust pipes was a scary prospect in retrospect.
 
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rottydaddy said:
N
No way. I'm sure it's tiny and properly mounted, but it is a balanced control surface, and a pretty critical one. How many ounces at what station is enough to induce flutter with that airplane at such-and-such speed? I don't know, but if I never stick something on a control surface that is critically balanced, I'll never have to find out.
Click to expand...

You can't even PAINT a balanced surface without taking precautions. A go pro weighs about 3 oz for the camera and about another 3 ounces for the case and more depending on what the mount was. It's aerodynamically a brick as well.
 
AuntPeggy said:
Would you declare an emergency?
Would you go back to Runway 29 or opt for the closer Runway 24?
Would you stop next to the waiting fire truck?
Would you park next to another aircraft on the ramp?

Questions added since the original post:
Would you put a camera there?
Would you post the video on You Tube?
Would you simply continue the flight?
Does it make a difference whether the aircraft is high-wing or low-wing?
Does it make a difference that the plane is recent or older vintage?
In declaring an emergency, what would you say?
Would it make a difference if there were passengers?
Click to expand...

Heavy fuel odor in the cockpit? Yup, declaring an emergency and landing as soon as possible. Something is obliviously wrong and better to be on the ground then in the air. Closest runway and would taxi away from anything that could catch on fire. I am not worried about the fire truck as it will douse the plane with foam or hundreds of gallons of water.

Not where I would have mounted the camera and no, it would not be on youtube

Xyz tower, n12345 declaring an emergency. Heavy odor of fuel in the cockpit.

Wing location, type or pass aboard have no bearing on declaring an emergency.
 
gismo said:
I think declaring was the right choice, especially if fire/rescue was available or there was any other traffic in the area that might have delayed the Cirrus's landing. Way better to be on the ground with fire trucks rolling without a fire than the other way around.
Click to expand...

But then taxi up between other airplanes close to a building?? That's what I don't get?! :dunno: I'd shutdown well away from anything else with fuel or people in it so the fire truck had easy, complete access.
 
Would you declare an emergency?
Yes
Would you go back to Runway 29 or opt for the closer Runway 24?
Depends, situational. 29 was over water, might be nice if I'm on fire.
Would you stop next to the waiting fire truck?
Kind of, I would make sure I was within his spray radius, but not too close.
Would you park next to another aircraft on the ramp?
No, nowhere near the ramp.

Questions added since the original post:
Would you put a camera there?
No
Would you post the video on You Tube?
Don't care
Would you simply continue the flight?
No
Does it make a difference whether the aircraft is high-wing or low-wing?
No
Does it make a difference that the plane is recent or older vintage?
No
In declaring an emergency, what would you say?
Mayday, Bonanza xxxxx is returning to field, roll trucks, potential fuel leak in cabin.
Would it make a difference if there were passengers?
No
 
Emergency for fuel smell? No. I've had smoke in the cockpit and didn't declare. Fuel smell is most likey due to a leaking fuel selector valve - that measures about a 0 on scale of 1-10 for an emergency.
 
Alex is a good pilot - he did what he thought was right and I wouldn't hesitate to fly with him.
 
His camera mount he also got approved by his local FSDO. Basically he made a fairing to put on top of the rudder.
 
rottydaddy said:
No way. I'm sure it's tiny and properly mounted, but it is a balanced control surface, and a pretty critical one. How many ounces at what station is enough to induce flutter with that airplane at such-and-such speed? I don't know, but if I never stick something on a control surface that is critically balanced, I'll never have to find out.
Click to expand...

Is it an actual balanced control surface? Not all control surfaces in every plane are balanced. I honestly don't know about the SR22. I do know that the top of the rudder seems to be a common mounting spot for GoPros on Cirrus airplanes. The guy is not the only one on YouTube to mount it there.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
It's never wrong to declare an emergency. Fuel smell in the cockpit can turn into a full blown fire in the cockpit in less than a minute. Every (3) emergency brief I've seen about fires in cockpits, the pilots talked about how quickly it happened. The decision to put the airplane on the ground immediately was the difference.

Emergency - yes
Which R/W - the closest one, probably the reverse of the one I just took off from. Depends on conditions.
Stop on the taxiway - no. Once on the ground it becomes different. You CAN bail now if you have to.
Park next to another airplane - sure. I'm shutting down and there's a firetruck right behind me.

Camera on the tail? No, I don't like it there.
Post the video? Maybe, I'm not much of a poster.
Continue the flight? Nope.
Low/high wing? Nope, no difference.
Age? Nope, no difference.
Emergency text - N1234 is declaring an emergency, we are returning immediately. I'd be ready to add a strong fuel smell in the cockpit and intentions.
Passengers - no difference.
 
Thanks to all for this interesting discussion. I asked because of wanting to learn something from you all.

I think that I would not have turned around or declared an emergency unless the smell was very strong. I don't know how strong the smell was in this case. But, in retrospect, it probably is not something that should be ignored, so I have learned something from this exercise.

That said, I did not think that there was such urgency that a different runway should be requested. There is a lot to be said for continuing with the familiar. Along those lines, I noticed that the pilot was talking out loud to himself. I think that is a good thing. He was counting, which sounded like something he does routinely. Dropping into his familiar routine lets me know that he was following the rule, "Aviate, navigate, communicate."

I have declared an emergency to tower at this airport in the past, and felt that they took a couple of tries to accept that an emergency was being declared at that time, too. But, once accepted, tower got the proper people responding correctly.

There have been a number of discussions about mounting a camera and posting you tube videos. Looks like the discussion is still open, with no hard decision either way from this pool of people. I have never posted on You Tube, so it isn't an issue for me yet, but someday I hope to figure it out.

Since he parked next to my old parking place, I asked about leaving his potentially flaming star next to mine. I did make sure to run the video again to assure myself that my plane was no longer in the vicinity. :yes:

Hubby mentioned that with our high-wing plane, it is harder to see if the gas cap is missing than it is on a low-wing plane. I am assuming that the pilot in this case was working his way through whatever mental checklist he had to determine the cause before he declared an emergency. That would (in his case) include looking for the gas caps.

Another person mentioned the possibility of turning off the fuel to prevent a fire. That would never have occurred to me.

As I said, thanks for the opportunity for a learning experience. I just don't have the time to make all the mistakes myself.
 
Several have mentioned the strength of the fuel smell in determining if they would take any action. Just want to point out that the VOC content of avgas is much lower than auto fuel. Some have complained that using auto fuel in planes is a smelly, messy process. I'm pretty sure that avgas also has a lower RVP, although that changes with seasons.

Anyway, despite the empirical unkowns, I would say that if you can smell fuel in the cabin, and you aren't burning auto fuel(Cirrus isn't rated for it, but stranger things have happened) there could be a significant source.

The other issue that comes into play is that this is a fuel injected engine. Compared to a gravity fed, or low pressure carb setup, the FI setup has a much higher operating pressure, combined with more components and lines. All of which can play a part in a potential failure mode.

I guess these two factors weighed in my decision to declare.
 
First, I wouldn't second guess a pilot who didn't bend any metal (or break any plastic). What I would do is utterly immaterial. What he did is what's important, and what he did was the right thing, since it all turned out well.

I am never attaching any kind of camera to any part of my airplane. If anything happens in my aircraft that's actually worth watching there isn't going to be any bloody evidence.
 
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