Declared Emergency today - first flight with family

It sounds to me more like it was starving for air than starving for fuel, and may well have been something clogging the air filter / airway. That would explain the immediate improvement when you went to carb heat, without needing time to melt ice. Carb heat bypasses the air filter.
 
Matthew Rogers said:
This was the 5th flight since annual. Nope, sixth because it was ferried back from then APs airport back home after annual. And it had flown three flights in the past 24 hours with no problems including the outbound leg in the morning.

If nothing is discovered by MX (worst case), we will most likely install a carb temp probe. Anyone know if they work and can actually diagnose or help prevent icing in the O-200. By prevent, I mean allow me to look at it and proactively decide to add carb heat.
Click to expand...

My Cessna 140 with O 200A has had a Carb temp gauge on the panel all the time I’ve owned it. Early on I developed the habit of watching it, especially when beginning and during my descent. If it’s in the yellow she gets carb heat. When I got my first Mooney which was carbureted, it had the very same gauge, so the habit I had developed served me well.

I wouldn’t want to fly a carbureted aircraft without the carb temp gauge.

Hope this helps.
 
Just a note about how great aviation is.

Saw this post on a Piper group from a JetBlue pilot that heard your mayday.

8653001a0db80ff4636c1e7cae36b89c.jpg
 
Good job.
I was flying in the Berkshires today (10-14) and within minutes after getting off the ground I had to pull the carb heat.
Did a quick check on my phone and the humidity had skyrocketed.
Left the carb heat partially on for the rest of the flight.
 
Heftiger said:
Just a note about how great aviation is.

Saw this post on a Piper group from a JetBlue pilot that heard your mayday.
Click to expand...
Yeah, and I didn't even get a "You're on GUARRRRRRRD". Center responded in a few seconds. I changed to the NY APP freq that they told me, but it was so busy I could not get a word in and then my PTT switch may have decided that it was too scared and decided not to work that exact moment. So I just went to Danbury Tower and used the Co Pilot PTT. One less thing to think about. I am still assuming that Danbury Tower contacted NY APP after I landed. Or at least the paperwork trail cleared it up quickly. Obviously, I wasn't on FF this flight. I do use it most of the time and guess that will be going from most to all the time.
 
Kritchlow said:
It’s a NASTY airport. Hills right next to runways. Final between mountains.

I grew up near there. Very familiar with this airport. It’s not for the faint of heart.
Click to expand...

Although I trained at Bridgeport (KBDR), I took my PPL practical test at KDXR. Note that runway 17-35 is closed at night, 35 is the runway with the approach through the mountains (hills above your altitude on both sides on short final). Runway 26 has a hill with obstruction clearance lighting on it (making it easy to see - and miss) after which you need to dive a bit to the runway, but it is plenty long for a 150. For a new-ish pilot it does require a lot of work, but the tower personnel are great. I was approaching from the south for my PPL practical, and I couldn't find the airport ('cause it is in a valley) so I called the tower to discontinue my approach and withdraw towards the Carmel (CMK) VOR and then follow a radial in to DXR. The controller just had me push the ident button on the transponder and then he vectored me in. I wouldn't be afraid of the airport.

=Skip
 
Skip Miller said:
Although I trained at Bridgeport (KBDR), I took my PPL practical test at KDXR. Note that runway 17-35 is closed at night, 35 is the runway with the approach through the mountains (hills above your altitude on both sides on short final). Runway 26 has a hill with obstruction clearance lighting on it (making it easy to see - and miss) after which you need to dive a bit to the runway, but it is plenty long for a 150. For a new-ish pilot it does require a lot of work, but the tower personnel are great. I was approaching from the south for my PPL practical, and I couldn't find the airport ('cause it is in a valley) so I called the tower to discontinue my approach and withdraw towards the Carmel (CMK) VOR and then follow a radial in to DXR. The controller just had me push the ident button on the transponder and then he vectored me in. I wouldn't be afraid of the airport.

=Skip
Click to expand...
Well that’s another good point.... it’s hard to find the airport due to the terrain.

Personally I’d rather land at Aspen.
 
Kritchlow said:
Well that’s another good point.... it’s hard to find the airport due to the terrain.

Personally I’d rather land at Aspen.
Click to expand...
It was easily seen from the north luckily. I had it in sight for at least 5-8 miles and only at 2000 AGL.
 
Congratulations, you had an emergency and you got everybody on the ground safely.
Now you're second guessing yourself. We all do that. Use it to learn what to do in the future, should you have another emergency.

As far as the emergency process itself, tower probably filed a report with the local FSDO and you might get a phone call to follow up. Last one I got, it seemed they didn't care about my well-being or offering any financial aid in fixing the problem, the inspector was pretty much trying to figure out whether I'll fly the airplane or fix the airplane. He was happy with my answer that a mechanic already diagnosed it and is fixing it and it will be airworthy within a week.

Btw, did you have a lump in your throat when you declared? (on guard and then later with Danbury tower) Just curious. I know I did. I sounded a little off. :)
 
I talked very fast. Luckily 121.5 came right to mind without hesitation. Mayday mayday mayday took less than a second. I may have been more nervous if the family was not on board. With them there it was all hands on deck in my brain. Get the kids seatbelt tightened, land the plane. No funny flying and spin into the ground. I was already planning on a straight ahead approach into the trees at minimum speed if necessary during the part of the emergency when there were no other landing options. Just fly the plane.
 
Mechanic apparently did not go over yesterday, but plans to go tomorrow and fly the plane home himself. I sure would rather him fly it home than me. In a way, just a few days out of a big annual ($5500, yeah I know... for a 150) it is kinda on him to know that the plane is good to fly.
 
Matthew Rogers said:
Mechanic apparently did not go over yesterday, but plans to go tomorrow and fly the plane home himself. I sure would rather him fly it home than me. In a way, just a few days out of a big annual ($5500, yeah I know... for a 150) it is kinda on him to know that the plane is good to fly.
Click to expand...
I do not know many mechanics who are willing to fly in an airplane they just worked on.
Fortunately, my mechanic trusts not only his skills but also mine so he doesn't mind doing a test flight with me after maintenance.

Let us know what you find!
 
This guy will often fly the plane back to my airstrip and then I get in and fly him back to his home airport after MX. It makes picking it up very easy with no car shuffling. He flies it first, then is willing to make the second flight home, only after that do i have to fly it alone back home. We are only talking 15 minutes each way, but at least you know all the control surfaces are in order.
 
Keep us posted and yes on our small continentals use that carb heat... I fly a c85, I hit it every 10-15 mins in cruise and if not in dusty spot it is on full all through run up...

Great job!
 
A rental 150 puked on my instructor and me about 50 feet up on takeoff; we just landed on the remaining runway. Good emergency training! It felt just like a throttle pull. Turned out that a load of water, that did not show up on sumping, showed up at an inopportune moment. That event was the impetus to buy my own airplane.
 
So my wife asked to take lessons with our local CFI, who just so happens to be a young woman her age. She wants to be better able to help the next time there is an emergency. I guess that means she will fly again.
 
Nice work man! And good job not panicking and getting it on the ground safe
 
Matthew Rogers said:
So my wife asked to take lessons with our local CFI, who just so happens to be a young woman her age. She wants to be better able to help the next time there is an emergency. I guess that means she will fly again.
Click to expand...
serious fist pump!
 
So I finally got the plane back at home. Mechanic and other co-owner went to Danbury and the mechanic flew it back to his airport, Ellenville. Apparently, all he looked at was the aforementioned flap tracks (no damage or issues from slight overspeed), took off the carb bowl and gascolator (no contamination or water), checked the air filter (intact and new). An uneventful flight back and that was it.

Fast forward to today and I drove the co-owner over to Ellenville to ferry it the 10 miles back home. I was still a bit skeptical because there was no apparent answer and I am still reluctant to call it carb ice. The mechanic recounted a time when he was flying some people in a 172 and they were over the airport when the engine just instantly throttled back to idle without warning. He glided down for a daed stick landing and rolled over to the fuel pumps so nobody was the wiser, told them that he needed to get some gas, and then went back up with only himself after giving the plane a good looking over. Never found any cause for that either and never had an issue with the plane again.

But then I asked about the fuel vent and went about investigating that avenue. I took off the fuel cap and had the other owner blow into the fuel vent. He thought that it was blocked. I went over and tried to blow into it and could not get any air in through the vent tube at all, with the fuel cap totally off. We have vented fuel caps from Cap, Inc (Wichita, KS). Looks just like this one https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/cessnaparts8.php. I just replaced the fuel cap gaskets, and I was a rock climber, so I may be able to tighten the caps more than others. This could mean that the caps were venting enough through the seal at other times and this flight I tightened them fully and blocked the air from leaking past the new gaskets.

So perhaps the caps are not venting the tank at all (will take them apart tomorrow) and the stock fuel vent is completely blocked. A blocked fuel vent issue could certainly cause engine surging and lack of fuel flow at cruise 20 minutes after takeoff, right? TheSo off to clean out that fuel vent tube and caps. Any way to do a good test of the fuel venting system after the vent is clear and the caps are taken apart and overhauled?
 
You did a great job.
Danbury can be a problem because of terrain but by far the best approach with lowest terrain is straight in to 17.

In one memorable event with carb ice in my PA28-181, after practicing approaches at lower power, I got an immediate increase in power after a slight stumble once I put in carb heat. I made the mistake of not leaving it in for a long time in that occasion. So when I landed, I did another run up which was uneventful. However when I took the runway and put full power, I got some engine stumbling and aborted the takeoff. Taxied back and put the airplane away. Next day, the airplane functioned normally.

When conditions are right, and not necessarily when there is a close dewpoint spread, consider you have carb ice; and just as had been mentioned, it’s a good idea to use full carb heat for a bit every 15 minutes in cruise but especially when cruising or descending at low power when preparing to land. I use several seconds even in my Lycoming prior to short final.
 
Did you ever turn on the electric fuel pump during the emergency? Years ago I had taken off from a small airport in Utah and was en route to Durango Colorado in a Piper Cherokee. I had been climbing for about 10 minutes or so in the Rockies when all of the sudden I lost power at about 7500 ft. I immediately turned on the electric fuel pump. Power resumed almost immediately. I flew for a little bit, continuing my climb trying to figure out what to do. I remember that there weren't any airports withing gliding distance, so I continued flying east and climbing. I got up to about 11500 ft and turned off the electric fuel pump. Everything seemed fine. I decided to continue on, and eventually reached Durango. I landed and called my mechanic. He quickly surmised that I probably had a blocked fuel vent, and the electric fuel pump gave me just enough more pumping power that it overcame the blockage, or possible sucked air through the cap or something and gave me full power again. I checked the vent on the tank I had been drawing off of, and it seemed clear. With your story, however, it does seem a little odd that carb heat would fix the problem, unless (maybe not very likely) it just happened to coincide with the vent clearing in some way. All I know with me was that it never happened again in my plane and I flew it hundreds of hours after that without issue.
 
No fuel pump, Cessna 150.

Today I snaked the fuel vent and it was completely blocked with crud, dirt, etc. I used a few tiny bottle brushes daisy chained together. 0.040 tie wire was too stiff and sharp on the end to get past the second bend. The tiny bottle brush wire could make the two 90 degree turns. 24” into the tube and after shaking it as best I could and watching stuff fall out, I blew into the tube and with little pressure got air flow into the tank.

I used a boroscope in the tank and saw that the internal check valve looks good and new, not much to see on the outside of the valve. Next step is to fill the tank to the brim and have someone watch for bubbles as I gently blow into the vent tube just to be sure that air can easily enter for certain.

I also took apart the caps and have a question about them. Is there any adjustment of those caps? Do you adjust the tension of the hex head screw? Can they be tightened too much that that the venting does not work well? There was not much I could see that was wrong. The silicone one way flapper on the inside looked good and flexible.

So how many people actually check their fuel vent lines as part of preflight? I looked at it each time and only saw a vent that was covered in screen. But obviously that check was not sufficient.
 
Somedudeintn said:
Don’t think any 150’s have electric fuel pumps.
Click to expand...

Sorry for my ignorance. I have never been in one. My first flight instructor discouraged me from looking for a 150. His words were that you don't fly a 150, you wear it. I thought that was a little harsh, but I digress. I do still wonder though, if the fuel vent issue may be a possibility.
 
Yeah, I know it flies for at least 20 minutes, as it has done that twice since the emergency. Now that I have an answer (that the mechanic may have missed), I will takeoff, fly the pattern until enough altitude to transit over SWF airspace within glide range and then spend an hour burning gas at max rate over top of their 11,000’ runway with full crash equipment. I am pretty sure I can put the bird down on that runway without feeling stressed if the problem repeats itself.

Am I correct in that pulling carb heat results in lower fuel flow demand? Less volume/mass of air would result in less fuel flow through the carb? Or to put it another way, if only so much fuel can flow, pulling carb heat would result in a better/richer mixture that can now burn smoothly. Maybe just enough that some air leaked past the blocked vent and reduced the vacuum over the 4 mins of surging and then the reduction in power with carb heat reduced the flow enough that the fuel flow equaled air and the engine ran more smoothly.
 
Carb heat makes the fuel mixture more rich. I suppose that if the fuel you were introducing into the carburetor, was too little because of the vent blockage reducing fuel flow, and you enrichen the mixture by reducing the volume of air (because it was hotter and less dense) then I would suppose that would produce a better fuel burn producing more horse power. I wouldn't think you would be producing full power though. Just more power than you were because of a better fuel air mixture. Someone much smarter than me should weigh in on this theory though. Do you remember feeling like you were at normal power for your throttle position, or did it feel like you had power more equal to 3/4 throttle?
 
Matthew Rogers said:
No fuel pump, Cessna 150.

Today I snaked the fuel vent and it was completely blocked with crud, dirt, etc. I used a few tiny bottle brushes daisy chained together. 0.040 tie wire was too stiff and sharp on the end to get past the second bend. The tiny bottle brush wire could make the two 90 degree turns. 24” into the tube and after shaking it as best I could and watching stuff fall out, I blew into the tube and with little pressure got air flow into the tank.

I used a boroscope in the tank and saw that the internal check valve looks good and new, not much to see on the outside of the valve. Next step is to fill the tank to the brim and have someone watch for bubbles as I gently blow into the vent tube just to be sure that air can easily enter for certain.

I also took apart the caps and have a question about them. Is there any adjustment of those caps? Do you adjust the tension of the hex head screw? Can they be tightened too much that that the venting does not work well? There was not much I could see that was wrong. The silicone one way flapper on the inside looked good and flexible.

So how many people actually check their fuel vent lines as part of preflight? I looked at it each time and only saw a vent that was covered in screen. But obviously that check was not sufficient.
Click to expand...

It’s good that you got the under wing vent cleaned out. One thing though - what screen are you talking about? There isn’t supposed to be a screen covering that vent at all. Also there is a specific placement of that underwing vent which needs to be checked by a mechanic as it can be moved up and down which might affect the ram air which hits it in flight.

Do you even see fuel leaking from it when you totally fill the tanks? I know my 150 leaks quite a bit if I start taxiing around right after I fill up. If you see fuel coming out the debris in the line might not have been the issue even though it seems bad.
 
If you have ever had an emergency with your family aboard, you probably realize that my memory will not be perfect. At the time, any steady power was great and since I was enroute to an airport and did not need to climb, I have no idea if it was full power or still partial. It would be untrue to say that I am certain either way.

To prevent the constant blockage of these tubes by the ever present mud dauber wasps, a small piece of aluminum screen was placed over the vent and has been there for probably 10 years at least. Long before I owned the airplane.

I did look up the vent info and have a chart of the proper placement of the vent tube. I will check it today to see if it moved during the cleaning. I read a good article detailing the many issues that cessnas have with fuel venting, vented cap failures, and blocked vents.

We never had fuel leakage when the tanks were full. Since it is my only and first airplane, I just assumed it was normal. I have topped off the tanks several times up to the brim and never noticed fuel coming out. The blockage was complete and could certainly stop fuel as it stopped any air from getting past when I put my mouth on that dirty pipe and blew into it.
 
150’s love carb ice. If you think it might have been carb ice... it was probably carb ice.
 
Piper18O said:
you enrichen the mixture by reducing the volume of air (because it was hotter and less dense)
Click to expand...
Picking a nit - you reduce the mass of air flowing through the carburetor, not the volume. But, yea, the net result is richer - the suction across the fuel metering jets is about the same giving the same mass of fuel, but the mass of air is reduced.


Go ahead and call me pedantic if it makes you feel better. Won't be the first time. :)
 
Matthew Rogers said:
No fuel pump, Cessna 150.

Today I snaked the fuel vent and it was completely blocked with crud, dirt, etc. I used a few tiny bottle brushes daisy chained together. 0.040 tie wire was too stiff and sharp on the end to get past the second bend. [snip]
Click to expand...

Just for future reference, if you bend a tiny loop in the end of the wire it'll do much better going around bends. (Former electrician who had to snake wires into all sorts of hard places.)
 
Just curious, no direct knowledge, is there any issue cleaning it that way and blowing in it sending the newly loosened contamination into the fuel??? Just a wonder not a critique...
 
I learned something! That tip about bending the tip of the wire back is great. I wonder what type of wire is the most flexible. I actually have a bunch of both 1/16” and 1/8” stainless aircraft cable. That would probably be best. Didn’t think about that. I can even put a drop of weld on the end and grind that
Into a smooth ball.

I knew that it was not a great idea to blow crud up into the tank. So I didn’t just take compressed air and blast it up the tube. I tried to use compressed air and suck it out of the tube like a Venturi, but that didn’t really work. The tiny bottle brushes broke up the dirt and I tapped the tube to shake and bounce the dirt down and out.

I have a boroscope from amazon to look in the tank and did not see anything go through. But a tiny amount of dirt is no more than you find in lots of old airplane tanks. I’ll check the sumps well next time.

today I just topped off the tanks to the brim and tipped the plane to the left. Thankfully fuel started dripping out of the vent. I let it drip for a while to clear out the rest of the dust and dirt. Then I put a length of plastic tubing on the vent and went up to the tank. Blowing very gently resulted in a dramatic increase in the level in the tank. Telling me that the vent is now free and clear and connected to the tank.

Our plane never dropped fuel before when filled up. That was great for keeping the fuel in, but obviously bad for getting the fuel to come out!

Everyone might want to take their fuel caps off and use a piece of tubing to gently blow into their fuel vents to make sure that they are not blocked. We may have gone 3 months or three years with a blocked vent before everything lined up to cause a problem. I looked at the vent every preflight, but looking was not sufficient. I will be keeping a short piece of tubing with me to check the fuel vent by blowing and the Piece of aircraft cable in my flight bag to swab the vent every month.

Someone mentioned that the vent should not have a piece of screen over it. Does anyone else have some screen over their fuel vent? Even with the screen, bugs slipped past and clogged the vent. Without it, I am certain that in the spring it will have a mason bee nesting in it, in the summer it will be filled with a mud dauber wasp, and in the fall some other creature. If screen is actually bad, then the only other choice is a fabric cover.
 
Last edited:
Just wanted to say well done!

Well done!!

(Funny how folks preface like that, isn't it?)
 
Matthew Rogers said:
I learned something! That tip about bending the tip of the wire back is great. I wonder what type of wire is the most flexible. I actually have a bunch of both 1/16” and 1/8” stainless aircraft cable. That would probably be best. Didn’t think about that. I can even put a drop of weld on the end and grind that
Into a smooth ball.

I knew that it was not a great idea to blow crud up into the tank. So I didn’t just take compressed air and blast it up the tube. I tried to use compressed air and suck it out of the tube like a Venturi, but that didn’t really work. The tiny bottle brushes broke up the dirt and I tapped the tube to shake and bounce the dirt down and out.

I have a boroscope from amazon to look in the tank and did not see anything go through. But a tiny amount of dirt is no more than you find in lots of old airplane tanks. I’ll check the sumps well next time.

today I just topped off the tanks to the brim and tipped the plane to the left. Thankfully fuel started dripping out of the vent. I let it drip for a while to clear out the rest of the dust and dirt. Then I put a length of plastic tubing on the vent and went up to the tank. Blowing very gently resulted in a dramatic increase in the level in the tank. Telling me that the vent is now free and clear and connected to the tank.

Our plane never dropped fuel before when filled up. That was great for keeping the fuel in, but obviously bad for getting the fuel to come out!

Everyone might want to take their fuel caps off and use a piece of tubing to gently blow into their fuel vents to make sure that they are not blocked. We may have gone 3 months or three years with a blocked vent before everything lined up to cause a problem. I looked at the vent every preflight, but looking was not sufficient. I will be keeping a short piece of tubing with me to check the fuel vent by blowing and the Piece of aircraft cable in my flight bag to swab the vent every month.

Someone mentioned that the vent should not have a piece of screen over it. Does anyone else have some screen over their fuel vent? Even with the screen, bugs slipped past and clogged the vent. Without it, I am certain that in the spring it will have a mason bee nesting in it, in the summer it will be filled with a mud dauber wasp, and in the fall some other creature. If screen is actually bad, then the only other choice is a fabric cover.
Click to expand...

Are there covers for them like the pitot tubes? Though missing it could cause a safety issue I guess too...
 
Huckster79 said:
Are there covers for them like the pitot tubes? Though missing it could cause a safety issue I guess too...
Click to expand...
I have one that I made for my pitot tube during winter (had one instance of water freezing inside and no airspeed on takeoff - actually discovered it while taxiing when the airspeed was reading 70 while stopped). I put it on the vent tube today because there are still bugs flying around.

What I will do is make another tube cover and attach the two together with a length of bright reflective tape, maybe even attach those to my cowl plugs with another long length of bright reflective webbing. That way there is a super obvious chain of covers all linked together and all on the pilots side of the plane. Would be painfully obvious from the pilots window. Can’t take off just one and forget the others.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top