Debonair...what am I missing

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Tmpendergrass

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Tmpendergrass
I've had my eyes on M20Cs, 201s, and if I could find a good partner, an older Cirrus or diamond.
Never paid much attention the the beech stuff.

The other day I decided to browse through debonair son TaP and was surprised to find many early models listed in the 30k-40k range. That seems like a steal for an aircraft than can carry 4 people and still cruise at 150kts at 11gph.

I'm starting to seriously consider debonairs since I could get an a33 for 30 grand and have enough left over to slowly modernize the panel and interior, repaint it, and maybe even add a few mods like tip tanks.

Is there a glaring issue on these planes I should look out for. Or am I on the right track?


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Spar cracks, fuel bladders, wing bolts, rudder brackets, gear bushings.... The usual stuff. Any time you are looking at older aircraft there are a great number of variables that can make what sounds like a steal into a real dog. Not that you can't find a good deal but you have to go in with your eyes wide open. A quick scan of TAP focusing on asking price only isn't going to provide the whole picture.
 
I would probably take a Deb over a C model, but it's about fair trade at the E model. The costs on the latter are likely to be lower in the long term. Of course, once things have been reengined, all the bets are off unless you know exactly the configuration.
 
denverpilot said:
Underpowered at high DA, but so are the M20C's.
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Perhaps you are thinking of the Sundowner?

The Debonairs had 225-300 HP depending on the model and an STC or so. That's a bit better than the 180 HP M20C and pretty decent for high DA.

I flew one pretty regularly before I left Denver and didn't have too much trouble traveling better than 165 TAS at 11 GPH through the Rockies.
 
Cost of maintenance can get expensive if the airplane wasn't properly maintained.
 
I'd take a debonair over a Mooney. I wouldn't take a Mooney over an old debonair unless it were an ovation or acclaim. Yes, I would take a Debonair over a J model. I've flown all of them.

Why? Because as Matthew McConaughey would say: "I've been flying Debonairs since long before anyone paid me to fly Debonairs. I didn't do it to be cool, I didn't do it to make a statement, I just liked it."
 
Tmpendergrass said:
I've had my eyes on M20Cs, 201s, and if I could find a good partner, an older Cirrus or diamond.
Never paid much attention the the beech stuff.

The other day I decided to browse through debonair son TaP and was surprised to find many early models listed in the 30k-40k range. That seems like a steal for an aircraft than can carry 4 people and still cruise at 150kts at 11gph.

I'm starting to seriously consider debonairs since I could get an a33 for 30 grand and have enough left over to slowly modernize the panel and interior, repaint it, and maybe even add a few mods like tip tanks.

Is there a glaring issue on these planes I should look out for. Or am I on the right track?


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So you're looking at the 225hp Debs, nice thing there is MoGas STC is available. The main variable is condition, at that price there is nothing of value in the panel most likely. The first question for an old plane purchase, "has it always been hangared?" This is by far the most accurate tell for a superior quality airframe I have found. Even 2 years out on the ramp can have a marked effect.

As for Mooney vs Deb, go sit in them both for 20 minutes and take your significant other. Figure out which you are most comfortable in, then buy the one they like. In the end of it all, how much the people in your life enjoy being in the plane will have a much greater impact on your enjoyment/$$$ than what plane it is you're flying.
 
The 225 hp Deb is a wonderful plane. Don't know what you get for $30k though. The spar cracks are predominantly in the long body Bonanzas and Barons. I flew my Deb into Gunnison, Montrose, and Meeker, all over 7000', in the summer with two guys and sons aboard. Just read the POH and use good high DA technique.
 
Henning said:
So you're looking at the 225hp Debs, nice thing there is MoGas STC is available. The main variable is condition, at that price there is nothing of value in the panel most likely. The first question for an old plane purchase, "has it always been hangared?" This is by far the most accurate tell for a superior quality airframe I have found. Even 2 years out on the ramp can have a marked effect.



As for Mooney vs Deb, go sit in them both for 20 minutes and take your significant other. Figure out which you are most comfortable in, then buy the one they like. In the end of it all, how much the people in your life enjoy being in the plane will have a much greater impact on your enjoyment/$$$ than what plane it is you're flying.
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I know an always hangared plane will look better but how much will it effect the mechanical soundness of the airframe.

I would probably modernize the panel with a 6pack and state of the art garmin stack and electric standby gyros.

I would also modernize the interior and repaint eventually so I honestly care less about how it looks, mainly just need to find a solid airframe at a good price.


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Tmpendergrass said:
I know an always hangared plane will look better but how much will it effect the mechanical soundness of the airframe.

I would probably modernize the panel with a 6pack and state of the art garmin stack and electric standby gyros.

I would also modernize the interior and repaint eventually so I honestly care less about how it looks, mainly just need to find a solid airframe at a good price.


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The difference in levels of corrosion I see is large.

I wouldn't bother with a six pack, just bite the bullet and go glass if you are buying your 'keeper'. SVT buys you a ****load of information.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Perhaps you are thinking of the Sundowner?

The Debonairs had 225-300 HP depending on the model and an STC or so. That's a bit better than the 180 HP M20C and pretty decent for high DA.

I flew one pretty regularly before I left Denver and didn't have too much trouble traveling better than 165 TAS at 11 GPH through the Rockies.
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I said underpowered, not unflyable. ;)

There's days around here I think my 182 is underpowered.

Especially at max gross.
 
I've never seen 165 out of a 225 hp debonair. In addition I agree they're a bit under powered at high density altitudes. But not worse than a M20C would be.
 
jesse said:
155 to 159 or so is a pretty typical KTAS in them.
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That's better than the one I was flying would do, but this one was old and tired lol. It would do over 150 if I pushed for it, but I didn't.
 
denverpilot said:
I said underpowered, not unflyable. ;)

There's days around here I think my 182 is underpowered.

Especially at max gross.
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Around there, most anything is underpowered some days :), although I found the Deb to be among the top 2 or 3 in terms of comfort, performance, and efficiency of the two dozen or so make/model singles I've flown. The other two in that group are the Turbo 182RG and SR22.
 
Henning said:
MPH maybe, that's about 145 kts which is what I've known 225hp Debs to do.
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jesse said:
155 to 159 or so is a pretty typical KTAS in them.
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I'd expect a consistent 155-159 KTAS in a BE33 or 35 airframe with a 250 or 260 hp engine at normal cruise. With 225 hp I'd look for a little less.
 
If I sell my FG plane and go to a retractable, a 225HP Deb would be high on my list of candidates because of the MOGAS option. As to "what's going on," it's not about Deb or not Deb--the question to ask is "what is the condition of this particular plane?" Don't think you can jump into a 30K Deb and fly off into the distance without a steep annual (although who knows, you might get lucky).

When you're looking at a plane to buy, condition is more important than the make or model.
 
Yep, airframe condition is the most important thing. Airframe repairs are expensive and time consuming, and when completed still will generally serve as a value deduct for the plane. Unless you are an A&P, or have a special relationship with one, taking on a project plane that needs airframe repairs becomes quickly unworkable. Engines have a great pro rate upgrade value, avionics don't pay back squat in cash, but pay for themselves in service received; but airframe repairs pay back is just continued use and loss of resale, not to mention loss of use in what is often more than a year of down time.
 
I'm a bit biased since I own a 225hp Debonair. I also looked at the mooneys, when I was looking around 4 years ago I could buy a somewhat newer Mooney for the same price as a Deb that was similarly equipped. I paid $50k and spent another 10k right off the bat adding shoulder harnesses, engine monitor, gammi injectors, and a fuel totalizer.

The main thing is comparing like planes. I wanted a plane that looked good, not new, but nice. And something I could fly for a while with hopefully no big expenses right away.

My avionic could use an upgrade, but everything works and I've flow many cross country's. I admit I don't fly into high elevations though, I live at sea level and family and friends all live east of the rockys.

And being able to use mogas has saved me a few dollars as well, it's just under $3.00 the last I bought.
 
Also I general cruise around 145-150knots true@ 11-12 gph. I can do 160 knots true below 7000 or so, but that's all I can get and that's ROP, more gas that I want to burn. The 260 hp and up will do better.
 
That is part of the reason I'm drawn to this plane as a "keeper". It's fast as is but can be made even faster and better high altitude come overhaul time.


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Tmpendergrass said:
That is part of the reason I'm drawn to this plane as a "keeper". It's fast as is but can be made even faster and better high altitude come overhaul time.


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Especially with a turbo normalized package that's available if you keep your eyes on the salvage yards and put in a request.
 
A comanche is a performance clone for the deb afaic. Worth considering as well since they're interchangeable. More airplanes to look at, more possibilities to find one worth buying. Good luck.
 
hindsight2020 said:
A comanche is a performance clone for the deb afaic. Worth considering as well since they're interchangeable. More airplanes to look at, more possibilities to find one worth buying. Good luck.
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Unfortunately, it's more difficult to find a Comanche in premium condition than a Bo or Deb. Back before the last market collapse set in and knocked the bottom out of the Bonanza/Deb market, the Comanche was called and considered, "a poor man's Bonanza", and the level of care and attention they received over their lives was representative.
 
Deb underpowered at high DA? Wow. I've taken Debonairs up to KTVL in July (10,000+ DA) and never had a problem pointing it straight at the pass and clearing it. In contrast, I normally had to make a circle or two to clear the pass in the Turbo Arrow.

There are annoying things about the Debonair that I don't like. Funky throttle quadrant layout. Vernier throttle. Flap lever resembling the gear lever. Horrid, awful flap system. But if you can put those aside, it is one of the sweetest handling planes you could fly, and land like a pro. And it's decently fast. And it's solidly built. And comfy.

I wouldn't rule it out.
 
Sac Arrow said:
Deb underpowered at high DA? Wow. I've taken Debonairs up to KTVL in July (10,000+ DA) and never had a problem pointing it straight at the pass and clearing it. In contrast, I normally had to make a circle or two to clear the pass in the Turbo Arrow.



There are annoying things about the Debonair that I don't like. Funky throttle quadrant layout. Vernier throttle. Flap lever resembling the gear lever. Horrid, awful flap system. But if you can put those aside, it is one of the sweetest handling planes you could fly, and land like a pro. And it's decently fast. And it's solidly built. And comfy.



I wouldn't rule it out.
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I'm aware of those drawbacks but for the price, I'm happy to look past them. The panel layout sucks but I would completely redo that.

What price would I expect to pay for a corotion free airframe and mid time engine with no other bells and whistles? $40k?


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Tmpendergrass said:
I'm aware of those drawbacks but for the price, I'm happy to look past them. The panel layout sucks but I would completely redo that.

What price would I expect to pay for a corotion free airframe and mid time engine with no other bells and whistles? $40k?


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Couldn't tell you although maybe others might be able to. I would just search through aso.com and trade a plane, and other similar sites and do a lot of comparisons.
 
Debbies are a premium over V-tails.....and I'd think a late 60's model would run you high 70's to mid 80'sK for a nice one.
 
Henning said:
Unfortunately, it's more difficult to find a Comanche in premium condition than a Bo or Deb. Back before the last market collapse set in and knocked the bottom out of the Bonanza/Deb market, the Comanche was called and considered, "a poor man's Bonanza", and the level of care and attention they received over their lives was representative.
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The degree to which the relative maintenance practices of the bo versus comanche are a function of the socioeconomics of who operated them in their prime (70s and 80s) are unknown to me; Im not informed enough on that front to say I disagree with you. I still find it hard to believe a magnesium laden airframe would hold up better than a all-Al variant after 50 years.
 
Usually, as in the case with any airplane, especially older ones, engine time plays a huge factor in the value.
 
If you are not already a member, join Beechtalk.com. Great folks, tons of information on the entire Beechcraft lineup.
 
JazzBass said:
If you are not already a member, join Beechtalk.com. Great folks, tons of information on the entire Beechcraft lineup.
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+1

And since I have to post more... Have an extra $10k in cash for the first year for MX. Hopefully you will not need it, but...

The MOGAS option sure is nice. With a 33, you have some nice engine upgrade options though...
 
hindsight2020 said:
The degree to which the relative maintenance practices of the bo versus comanche are a function of the socioeconomics of who operated them in their prime (70s and 80s) are unknown to me; Im not informed enough on that front to say I disagree with you. I still find it hard to believe a magnesium laden airframe would hold up better than a all-Al variant after 50 years.
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The first major socio-economic difference that has the greatest effect on the quality of the plane is hangar vs ramp storage. Even a couple of years on the ramp makes a big difference.
 
JazzBass said:
If you are not already a member, join Beechtalk.com. Great folks, tons of information on the entire Beechcraft lineup.
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Just joined beech talk! Lots of great info on there


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