Debonair -- the poor man's Bonanza??

[Irish_Armada]

Basically I'm currently a Cherokee 180 guy who is dreaming about the future upgrade to a real cross country plane that can haul a family around. The Deb's appear much cheaper acquistion-wise compared to the Bo's, but performance is still way up there and impressive. What gives? Is the Debonair a solid alternative for the guy looking to join the Beechcraft family without the Bo acquisition cost? Is upkeep and maintenance about the same between the two (which is obviously much more expensive than a fixed gear cherokee)? Any Deb pitfalls? Feel free to direct me to a previous thread if this has already been discussed ad nauseam.

 

[spiderweb]

Basically I'm currently a Cherokee 180 guy who is dreaming about the future upgrade to a real cross country plane that can haul a family around. The Deb's appear much cheaper acquistion-wise compared to the Bo's, but performance is still way up there and impressive. What gives? Is the Debonair a solid alternative for the guy looking to join the Beechcraft family without the Bo acquisition cost? Is upkeep and maintenance about the same between the two (which is obviously much more expensive than a fixed gear cherokee)? Any Deb pitfalls? Feel free to direct me to a previous thread if this has already been discussed ad nauseam.

I'm not an owner, but I have a few tens of hours in a Deb, and its six-seat siblings.

The Debonair is a lovely plane to fly, as you'd expect. Dainty fuel usage for the speed (expect 160 KTAS), and refined handling. You'll fall in love. But if you really need the six seats, consider the A36 or a Saratoga.

 

[jesse]

These days - Bo's and Debs vary dramatically based on how they're equipped. There are many Deb's that are nicer than many Bo's, etc. If I were buying I would be looking at both on a case-by-case basis.

The Debonair is a sweet flying plane, as is the Bonanza.

Straight Tail, V Tail, Bonanza, Debonair..I think they all fly about the same. Performance varies depending on how each plane is equipped. I don't think any of them in the series feel much different - until you get to the A36 - it's much more truck like than the previous models.

 

[flyingmoose]

Agreed with the last two posts. I have more Debonair time than Bo's but I really like both. I currently have a Deb that we just got finished with restore on that is going to be going on the market soon. I might just fly it some more today

 

[flyingron]

My neighbor had a deb with an IO-520 and a pretty decent IFR GPS panel. You'd not know it as "poor man" compared to a Bonanza of the same vintage without the upgrades.

 

[JOhnH]

Agreed with the last two posts. I have more Debonair time than Bo's but I really like both. I currently have a Deb that we just got finished with restore on that is going to be going on the market soon. I might just fly it some more today

Pics and details please!

 

[JHW]

the "poor" description really only applied the first couple years as beech tried to compete with comanche 180's on price. After that they were all gussied up the same.

 

[jhausch]

Pics and details please!

+1

 

[LDJones]

Basically I'm currently a Cherokee 180 guy who is dreaming about the future upgrade to a real cross country plane that can haul a family around. The Deb's appear much cheaper acquistion-wise compared to the Bo's, but performance is still way up there and impressive. What gives? Is the Debonair a solid alternative for the guy looking to join the Beechcraft family without the Bo acquisition cost? Is upkeep and maintenance about the same between the two (which is obviously much more expensive than a fixed gear cherokee)? Any Deb pitfalls? Feel free to direct me to a previous thread if this has already been discussed ad nauseam.

They're essentially the same airplane, from the same factory using many of the same parts. They are all delightful to fly.

 

[steingar]

The Debonair is not the poor man's Bonanza! Get your facts straight!


The Comanche is the poor man's Bonanza. That is all.

 

[Papa Foxtrot]

Nice and nearly in my back yard.

1964 Bonanza Debonair

 

[Pilawt]

In the earlier years the Debonair had a smaller engine, fixed cowl flaps, smaller side windows, fixed rear passenger windows, older-style wingtips, and more austere upholstery and trim.

In 1966 the Bonanza's 285-hp engine was offered as an option on the 33 series; after 1972 it was the only engine available.

The Bonanza name was applied to the Model 33 series from 1968 (E33/E33A) onward, and gradually standard features and appointments were brought up to the same level as the Model 35.

From 1972 onward the Model 33 (F33A) was identical to the Model 35 (V35B ) in all respects, including price, except for the tailfeathers.

 

[brywd]

the "poor" description really only applied the first couple years as beech tried to compete with comanche 180's on price. After that they were all gussied up the same.

Agree.

The Debs, or all of the 33's for that matter have the best safety record of all of the single retracts. You can search/read about this in the AOPA/AIG study on Bonanzas. I don't know if it is true but I've heard there has never been an inflight breakup of a 33. Originally the Debs were offered as a more affordable option for buyers and Beech wanted it to have a different name as to not anger Bonanza owners. But make no mistake, a Deb is a Bonanza through and through. Early ones were missing the ability to open the passenger side windows on the ground, cowl flaps, and they had a lower horsepower engine. All of this was addressed later however.

As time passed and the V-Tail problems came to light the straight tailed airplanes became more desirable IMO and has been reflected in their price since. For a similarly equipped plane the straight tail will cost more. As mentioned earlier all of the short coupled Bo's have the same Bonanza Boogie in turbulence and is reported to be caused by the flat bottom of the plane. The number of oscillations after hitting a bump that causes the tail to wag is supposed to be the same with both types provided the V-Tail is rigged properly, but in reality I have read many times that the Debs quit in 3 swings, and the V-Tails will in 6. This doesn't match what I experience in my V-Tail, but thought I'd mention it just the same because that seems to be the common theme among folks who have lots of time in both.

The positives of the Debs with small engines is the ability to run Mogas if that is something that you desire and that they are cheaper to purchase because less people want them because of their performance at high density altitude airports, and the lack of ability for them to fly as high as the planes with bigger engines at gross weight. So there is a positive out of a negative; glass half full sort of argument. The bigger engined Debs have nothing to apologize for IMO, with the possible exception that being in CG envelope is more troublesome with the 33's than the 35's. This is true even though it was given a farther aft CG envelope. Later 33's such as the F33 are by far the worst! While they are great airplanes they are more a 3 person airplane than a 35 of the same year.

I guess to cut to the chase I think that if a person couldn't be happy owning a Debonair they just can't be pleased.

 

[MarkZ]

Our flying club has a 1960 Debonair. I see 11.5 gph at 145-150 KTAS on a 65% rate. The aileron trim tabs are a little off, however I have yet to see a more stable IFR platform. Comfortable too, much more in my mind than a mooney.

 

[Sac Arrow]

Debonairs really fly great and are roomy, but they do have some quirks.

1. Throttle quadrant placement (throttle, prop and mixture knobs) are in an odd sequence that takes some getting used to. NBFD after you do. Typical of older Bonanzas.

2. Vernier throttle is a bit funky to operate.

3. Flap system is horrid - no notched increments, and it's easy to bump the knob and raise them all at once.

4. Gear and flap levers look exactly the same and are awkwardly placed. Once you're configured for final, don't touch either until you've pulled off the runway and can think about what you're doing.

 

[poadeleted21]

Nice and nearly in my back yard.

1964 Bonanza Debonair

It's nice, overpriced by at least $20,000 but nice

 

[midlifeflyer]

The Debonair is pretty much what Beech called the earliest straight-tail 33-series 4-seat Bonanzas. That's pretty much it.

I flew a Debonair and an A36 when I was in Colorado. Size and # of seats was the only real operating difference between the two (except the Deb had a 300 HP conversion and was faster than the A36).

I wouldn't use the term "poor man's" with it.

Plane I miss the most since moving away? Yep.

 

[Papa Foxtrot]

It's nice, overpriced by at least $20,000 but nice

Doesn't really fit my mission anyway, but I like pretty birds and window shopping...

"But Honey, I tried to sell it, but they'res just no buyers these days..."

 

[Irish_Armada]

Doesn't really fit my mission anyway, but I like pretty birds and window shopping...

"But Honey, I tried to sell it, but they'res just no buyers these days..."

Thanks everyone for the replies -- very helpful. I still feel like I'm missing something though as it seems like I can get a Deb for the same price as a 60's era Cherokee that's 55 knots slower. See this example:http://m.controller.com/ListingDetail/Index?listingId=1316615&categoryId=6

Should you just expect to need to dump $30-40K into a plane like this after purchase to bring it up snuff and take care of required MX issues? I feel like there must be some ownership cost/MX pitfalls that I'm missing.

 

[bullwinkle]

Thanks everyone for the replies -- very helpful. I still feel like I'm missing something though as it seems like I can get a Deb for the same price as a 60's era Cherokee that's 55 knots slower.

Sure, and you can get a Mig-15 for $60k. The difference is in operating costs.

 

[Papa Foxtrot]

Thanks everyone for the replies -- very helpful. I still feel like I'm missing something though as it seems like I can get a Deb for the same price as a 60's era Cherokee that's 55 knots slower. See this example:http://m.controller.com/ListingDetail/Index?listingId=1316615&categoryId=6

Should you just expect to need to dump $30-40K into a plane like this after purchase to bring it up snuff and take care of required MX issues? I feel like there must be some ownership cost/MX pitfalls that I'm missing.

I'm no authority, but since you quoted me...

I think that, since the collapse of 2008, there's been more of a market for fixed pitch, down and welded aircraft than for complex birds. It's mainly a matter of maintenance costs. It's a buyer's market - problem is finding the right bird.

 

[Irish_Armada]

Sure, and you can get a Mig-15 for $60k. The difference is in operating costs.

Right but 11-12 gph in cruise at 65% is pretty dang good still. And I get the 6-cylinder vs. 4 cost, same for the retract vs. fixed gear cost. Overhauls more expensive too. But beyond that I felt like maybe a bunch of cheaper Deb's on the market we're going to be missing expensive ADs and other items that make them a risky investment when grabbing an older one off the market. I mentioned getting a Deb to our A&P and he basically said "ooooooo, you're gonna be $40k deep in MX before you're even flying." I don't know, he just made them sound like big MX hogs compared to other similarly equipped planes. I'm liking what I'm hearing tho!

 

[Papa Foxtrot]

I mentioned getting a Deb to our A&P and he basically said "ooooooo, you're gonna be $40k deep in MX before you're even flying." I don't know, he just made them sound like big MX hogs compared to other similarly equipped planes.

Compared to a fixed gear, fixed prop four banger - a six cylinder, constant speed retract will be a MX hog. Big question is, how much of that $40k is nice-to-haves vs. airworthiness issues? If you get a good annual for a pre-buy with multiple pages of sqawks and tell the mechanic to "fix it and call me when it's done", then yep - you'll likely eat up that 40 AMU pretty quick.

 

[flyingmoose]

Pics and details please!

+1

Of course.. A couple pics. If you want more detail pics and info on the aircraft specifics send me a message. I don't want to hijack. I will be adding a for sale post soon also.

 

[poadeleted21]

Compared to a fixed gear, fixed prop four banger - a six cylinder, constant speed retract will be a MX hog. Big question is, how much of that $40k is nice-to-haves vs. airworthiness issues? If you get a good annual for a pre-buy with multiple pages of sqawks and tell the mechanic to "fix it and call me when it's done", then yep - you'll likely eat up that 40 AMU pretty quick.

For reference, I tripled my hull value when going from a Cherokee to a Bonanza. The insurance went up $800/year that was with zero complex and zero high performance time and 250 Total hours.

Gear adds a few hours to the annual.

Fuel burn is more, but you get there faster.

I think the cost delta is overblown. My biggest mistake in aviation was buying the Cherokee first. I wasted at least $10K by doing that.

I'm not a buy your last plane first type of guy. But if your last plane is a HP/Complex SEL plane buy it over the fixed gear trainer. If you want a Bo, get a Bo, you'll never be happy with the Cherokee.

I used to window shop all the time. Now I just go to the for sale sites to confirm my decision to buy a Bo was the right one.

Plus, if you buy a Bo, Ed will personally welcome you to the circle jerk (I'm sorry, couldn't resist)

 

[nddons]

These days - Bo's and Debs vary dramatically based on how they're equipped. There are many Deb's that are nicer than many Bo's, etc. If I were buying I would be looking at both on a case-by-case basis.

The Debonair is a sweet flying plane, as is the Bonanza.

Straight Tail, V Tail, Bonanza, Debonair..I think they all fly about the same. Performance varies depending on how each plane is equipped. I don't think any of them in the series feel much different - until you get to the A36 - it's much more truck like than the previous models.

I had a meeting a few weeks ago in an A&P's hangar, and saw a beautiful Deb. She said it was better equipped than any Bonanza that she has ever seen.

 

[LDJones]

Thanks everyone for the replies -- very helpful. I still feel like I'm missing something though as it seems like I can get a Deb for the same price as a 60's era Cherokee that's 55 knots slower. See this example:http://m.controller.com/ListingDetail/Index?listingId=1316615&categoryId=6

Should you just expect to need to dump $30-40K into a plane like this after purchase to bring it up snuff and take care of required MX issues? I feel like there must be some ownership cost/MX pitfalls that I'm missing.

I suspect that price reflects the missing logbooks for that particular plane.

 

[weilke]

Once you get into the late 70s, F33As fetch a slightly higher price than comparable V-tails of the same vintage.

IF you dont need the room of an A36, a nicely upgraded late 80s F33A is a really sweet aircraft.

 

[JHW]

IF you dont need the room of an A36, a nicely upgraded late 80s F33A is a really sweet aircraft.

but annoyingly heavy compared to an S35 and most V35's, and most deb's

as the years went by, beech incoorporated more and more baron parts into the SE line. Good for manufacturing, bad for weight.

 

[weilke]

as the years went by, beech incoorporated more and more baron parts into the SE line. Good for manufacturing, bad for weight.

Using sturdier parts also eliminated things like the spar-web cracking issue.

 

[brywd]

Using sturdier parts also eliminated things like the spar-web cracking issue.

Exactly backwards actually. While there have been a few pre 1966 V-Tails and Debs reported to have a spar web crack, most of the cracks have been found in Barons and A36 Bonanzas. The cracks seem to be related to the higher gross weight, and more Baron parts didn't make the planes less likely to have this problem crop up decades after being built. The Cracks in the 33's and 35's that do randomly show up are in the airframes that have the higher gross weight of 3,400lbs, IE 1966 or later.

Here's a link to a recent thread on Beechtalk where this is being kicked around. On page 3 you will see a response from an American Bonanza Society Rep. stating more or less what I just typed here.

http://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=77274&hilit=spar+web+cracks&start=30

 

[JHW]

Using sturdier parts also eliminated things like the spar-web cracking issue.

exactly the opposite. The short body jobs almost never need the doubler.

the added weight went into gear parts, etc, not into structure

 

[SCCutler]

Perhaps I have been lucky, but none of the "surprise" issues I have encountered have been related to the complex nature of my Bo. Gear? Zero. Cowl flaps? Nada.

Ok, I lied. I had to have the prop resealed after three years with the plane. That would not happen with a fixed-pitch prop.

But, as far as operational cost, it burns less fuel per mile than a 172 (I cruise lean of peak, 161 knots, 12 GPH). Love it.

 

[LDJones]

But, as far as operational cost, it burns less fuel per mile than a 172 (I cruise lean of peak, 161 knots, 12 GPH). Love it.

That's impressive. The A36 I fly needs about 15 gph to do 160 kts LOP.

 

[SCCutler]

That's impressive. The A36 I fly needs about 15 gph to do 160 kts LOP.

520 or 550?

The 36 gives up 5-7 knots to a 35 in exchange for That Awesome Cabin.

I could probably get down to 11.7 or so, but it gets a little rough-feeling for my tastes.

 

[John Collins]

There are well maintained airplanes and pieces of crap in the fleet. There are Bonanza experts who know how to evaluate a prospective aircraft on a pre-buy. The typical mechanic lacks experience with the type and their advice is worse than useless. If you get a pre-buy accomplished by a mechanic that is not a Beechcraft expert, you are taking an enormous chance. Contact the ABS and they can help you locate one that can help.

BTW, IMHO an annual is not a pre-buy.

 

[SCCutler]

There are well maintained airplanes and pieces of crap in the fleet. There are Bonanza experts who know how to evaluate a prospective aircraft on a pre-buy. The typical mechanic lacks experience with the type and their advice is worse than useless. If you get a pre-buy accomplished by a mechanic that is not a Beechcraft expert, you are taking an enormous chance. Contact the ABS and they can help you locate one that can help.

BTW, IMHO an annual is not a pre-buy.

No kidding! Unless you hire it done, in which event you're buying an annual for the seller if you don't buy the plane.

Meanwhile... I trusted the seller's annual as my pre-buy. Completely idiotic (in hindsight), but it all worked out just fine and the plane has treated me well.

 

[j1b3h0]

There is a great deal of good info available to any prospective Debonair or Bonanza owner - through the ABS, Beechtalk, CSOB. Beech built very fine, delightful flying airplanes for which there is a (large) cult following, and maybe the best owners support network in the industry. But one must take the time to properly educate one's self, because buying the wrong example can make yacht ownership seem downright inexpensive in comparison...there are many stories of $10K annuals.
My V35A has a 1256lb useful load (812lbs with 74 gallons useable) and will cruise at a little over 160kts at 12.4gph LOP.

 

[Shepherd]

I love it when someone posts on an aviation site:
"ABC, the poor mans XYZ."
There are no "poor" men or women in the left seat of an airplane.
Maybe someone who is getting poor, hourly.

 

[Irish_Armada]

I love it when someone posts on an aviation site:
"ABC, the poor mans XYZ."
There are no "poor" men or women in the left seat of an airplane.
Maybe someone who is getting poor, hourly.

Hey, it's all relative...