Debit Card Fraud Case Solved

[RJM62]

My friendly deputy sheriff called me a little while ago and informed me that with the help of the State Police and the U.S. Secret Service, they've positively identified a local supermarket (affiliated with Food Town) as the source of the compromise I mentioned (and incorrectly blamed on Target) in a previous thread.

The compromise did not occur in the store, but farther up in the card processing system. That's what triggered the federal involvement. Pretty much everyone in town has already received or will shortly receive replacement cards. The local bank in town has also replaced literally every card that has ever been used in that store.

So I'm glad I reported it. Maybe the damage was mitigated somewhat as a result.

-Rich

 

[Maxmosbey]

My friendly deputy sheriff called me a little while ago and informed me that with the help of the State Police and the U.S. Secret Service, they've positively identified a local supermarket (affiliated with Food Town) as the source of the compromise I mentioned (and incorrectly blamed on Target) in a previous thread.

The compromise did not occur in the store, but farther up in the card processing system. That's what triggered the federal involvement. Pretty much everyone in town has already received or will shortly receive replacement cards. The local bank in town has also replaced literally every card that has ever been used in that store.

So I'm glad I reported it. Maybe the damage was mitigated somewhat as a result.

-Rich

When I was a police officer I found that a lot of people did not report thefts and minor crimes, because they always thought that the cops couldn't do anything anyway. The thing is, that is true on an individual basis, but the more times a crime gets reported, the more pieces the cops have to work with. If enough people report it, something can be done. Gotta look at the big picture. Glad you reported it.

 

[RJM62]

When I was a police officer I found that a lot of people did not report thefts and minor crimes, because they always thought that the cops couldn't do anything anyway. The thing is, that is true on an individual basis, but the more times a crime gets reported, the more pieces the cops have to work with. If enough people report it, something can be done. Gotta look at the big picture. Glad you reported it.

Thanks. I feel pretty good about it, actually. I'm also once again impressed with my little rural county's sheriff's department. They really followed through on this one.

-Rich

 

[Henning]

When I was a police officer I found that a lot of people did not report thefts and minor crimes, because they always thought that the cops couldn't do anything anyway. The thing is, that is true on an individual basis, but the more times a crime gets reported, the more pieces the cops have to work with. If enough people report it, something can be done. Gotta look at the big picture. Glad you reported it.

Around here if you report a car stolen the police won't even come out unless you need a report for the insurance.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

Around here if you report a car stolen the police won't even come out unless you need a report for the insurance.

Vallejo, Calif (google that if you need more background) is so bad, they have an online system to log your routine theft police report...personal experience there...

 

[RJM62]

Our Sheriff is elected here. That may be part of the difference.

-Rich

 

[Henning]

Our Sheriff is elected here. That may be part of the difference.

-Rich

Everywhere I've lived the sheriff has been an elected position.

 

[N801BH]

When I was a police officer I found that a lot of people did not report thefts and minor crimes, because they always thought that the cops couldn't do anything anyway. The thing is, that is true on an individual basis, but the more times a crime gets reported, the more pieces the cops have to work with. If enough people report it, something can be done. Gotta look at the big picture. Glad you reported it.

Hell,, why even have a police force then... ........

 

[kyleb]

Hell,, why even have a police force then... ........

To issue speeding tickets and bring in money to pay for the police force.

 

[kgruber]

In Seattle if you steal a car all you get is a traffic ticket.

 

[denverpilot]

Around here if you report a car stolen the police won't even come out unless you need a report for the insurance.

Most suburbs around here you can fill out the police report yourself online.

Officer or some clerk somewhere looks it over and they sign it and mail you a copy.

It's completely self-serve unless damages are above a certain dollar value.

The online form asks, and you still full it out, but they'll have you come talk to an "investigating" officer or they might roll up to your house and knock on the door depending on the jurisdiction.

Basically they take your tax money and require that you do the typing. It's annoying to think you're paying them to be their data entry person.

 

[flyingriki]

Hell,, why even have a police force then... ........

Good point, it's not like they deter crime...or even solve that many unless somebody rats out the perpetrator or he leaves his card....!

But they sure can write parking tickets and 5 mph over....

Glad they have $15,000 worth of computer equipment in each car plus a couple radios and cell phones to accomplish so much

 

[Geico266]

Hell,, why even have a police force then... ........

We need them to fight the war on drugs.

 

[RJM62]

Good point, it's not like they deter crime...or even solve that many unless somebody rats out the perpetrator or he leaves his card....!

But they sure can write parking tickets and 5 mph over....

Glad they have $15,000 worth of computer equipment in each car plus a couple radios and cell phones to accomplish so much

Consider for a moment that the village where I live has a lot of old folks. The median age is about 47 -- more than ten years above the national average. A lot of these people live on their pensions or investments, and those accounts are often linked to debit cards. Some of these accounts contain a lifetime's worth of retirement savings. If not detected and stopped, the compromise at this store could have been devastating for these old folks -- even more so because many of them might not be as obsessive-compulsive about monitoring their card activity as I am.

We also have some poor people, struggling farmers, disabled or unemployed people, and so forth whose benefits are distributed through debit cards that may have both register and ATM functionality, depending on the benefits they receive. These accounts rarely contain very much money, but what they do contain is survival money for these people. The loss of even a couple of hundred bucks could affect their ability to eat for a while.

The efforts of the sheriff and the other agencies involved in investigating this compromise resulted in the source of the breach being identified in less than 10 days. In addition to making the breach known so it can be fixed, knowing the source also led to hundreds of known-compromised payment cards being reissued, local residents being warned to monitor their account activity, and the sheriff's department making itself available to help people who are uncertain determine their risk and take action to protect themselves.

In addition, knowing the source of the breach is a definitive finding by law enforcement that will make it much easier for those who were victimized to quickly get their money back, make it possible for those who suffer unreimbursed losses to file file claims against any insurance they may have to cover those losses (most homeowners policies, for example, include at least some coverage for this sort of thing), and make it possible for financial institutions who took it on the chin to pursue reimbursement.

Whether the bad guys who were behind this breach will ever be identified and prosecuted is hit or miss. It depends on how sophisticated they were in covering their tracks. My understanding is that most of them are never caught. But if you look at the job of law enforcement as more than simply finding and incarcerating a bad guy, and rather extend it to mitigating harm, then any resolution of a case that results in the source of a breach being identified is a success.

-Rich

 

[airguy]

But if you look at the job of law enforcement as more than simply finding and incarcerating a bad guy, and rather extend it to mitigating harm, then any resolution of a case that results in the source of a breach being identified is a success.

-Rich

But law enforcement didn't do that - insurance and the banks did that.

 

[comanchepilot]

Around here if you report a car stolen the police won't even come out unless you need a report for the insurance.

rape takes a week, murder they'll get to it by tomorrow.

 

[comanchepilot]

whats with old people and debit cards? They love the stupid things - they come in the office and I ask them if they have all their bank accounts linked up - why of course they do. Then I ask them if their debit card in compromised whose money gets stolen when that happens? They look at me confused for about 2 seconds and then - whammo - the look of horror crosses their face. I then ask them why they don't use their credit cards . . . 'well, i pay my bill every month so it seemed silly to use the credit card and have to spend money on a stamp to pay my bill.' Paying their bill with a check and a stamp? WTF?

Debit cards are theft just waiting to happen. Ever tried to prove to a bank that you did not do something that obviously happened?

 

[Luvrv8]

We had a theft of a artificial horizon stolen out of a airplane at KCMA. It happend to be owned by a 94 year old WWII vet that I take flying when I can. I called the local police department here, we contract to the Sheriff. They came out and took the report. A detective called me the next day and wanted the AI that they left in the plane. I gave it to him. To my surprise the deceive drove to Van Nuys to the company who rebuilt the gyro last, or at least had his sticker on it to see who paid for the repair a few years ago. They wouldn't give him any info. The deceive called the FBI and the FAA and both wouldn't help a bit. He asked for me to get the owner to the airport, he showed up and went through everything he did and tried. He apologized that he came up with a dead end and couldn't get help from the Feds. I was more then happy for what he did.

 

[Skip Miller]

Thanks. I feel pretty good about it, actually. I'm also once again impressed with my little rural county's sheriff's department. They really followed through on this one.

-Rich

Sounds like they earned a box of donuts!!!

-Skip

 

[denverpilot]

whats with old people and debit cards? They love the stupid things - they come in the office and I ask them if they have all their bank accounts linked up - why of course they do. Then I ask them if their debit card in compromised whose money gets stolen when that happens? They look at me confused for about 2 seconds and then - whammo - the look of horror crosses their face. I then ask them why they don't use their credit cards . . . 'well, i pay my bill every month so it seemed silly to use the credit card and have to spend money on a stamp to pay my bill.' Paying their bill with a check and a stamp? WTF?

Debit cards are theft just waiting to happen. Ever tried to prove to a bank that you did not do something that obviously happened?

A number of vendors are back lashing against card fees. Most notably, gas stations.

If you watch carefully, at many stations now, by using a debit card with PIN, you'll get $0.10 off per gallon. Debit + PIN gets the "cash" price, credit gets the credit price.

Not that the typical person gets this concept nor pays that much attention.

 

[SCCutler]

Gas station charges more for credit, I don't buy their gas. I don't use debit cards, ever.

 

[eetrojan]

Gas station charges more for credit, I don't buy their gas. I don't use debit cards, ever.

Exactly. And, to stop from stupidly pulling into ARCO stations only to find out I still couldn't use my credit card, I dubbed them with the acronym meaning of "A Ripoff, Cash Only."

 

[denverpilot]

Gas station charges more for credit, I don't buy their gas. I don't use debit cards, ever.

Fair enough. Most of our gas pumps at grocery stores do it around here, and mixed with their grocery discounts, it can make a significant difference if you play their games.

We gave a number of gift cards to folks for Christmas, bought at grocery stores who were pushing the things. Double gas points on 'em.

That plus the debit card meant I filled the fleet of vehicles for a month for $1.10 off per gallon. Not a big deal if you're driving a Prius, but nice when filling the Dodge 3500 with diesel.

Sure they're making it up on some of their groceries if you're doing it via food purchases. But in this case I know it was a loss-leader for them. I love loss-leaders.

Debit cards are just a tool. Link them to an account all by themselves with no access to other accounts at separate institutions if you "need" to use one. Brain dead easy.

But hey, Barclay's sent me "real" credit card number five for internal fraud this week, and they still can't figure it out. They've got to be the worst organization I've seen yet for having to replace their cards all the time.

 

[gismo]

Hell,, why even have a police force then... ........

Somebody's got to bring the guns and dogs when the TSA or CBP need to stop an airplane they've declared "suspicious" because it landed in Colorado and was heading east without a flight plan.

 

[Doggtyred]

Gas station charges more for credit, I don't buy their gas. I don't use debit cards, ever.

thats your choice...

They choose not to eat 3% or more cost for credit card processing fees and pass it along to the consumer who is using the credit feature for convenience.

With gas margins as tight as they are, if they are trying to be competitive, why SHOULD they eat the cost, if they are successfully making the customer own and pay for his credit card use behavior..

 

[SCCutler]

Their choice, always. It is not as if it is a zero-sum game, of course; the record of data security for these places is not what we'd call stellar, and dealing with debit card issues can (especially for people of limited means) be much more difficult than credit.

 

[RJM62]

Fair enough. Most of our gas pumps at grocery stores do it around here, and mixed with their grocery discounts, it can make a significant difference if you play their games.

We gave a number of gift cards to folks for Christmas, bought at grocery stores who were pushing the things. Double gas points on 'em.

That plus the debit card meant I filled the fleet of vehicles for a month for $1.10 off per gallon. Not a big deal if you're driving a Prius, but nice when filling the Dodge 3500 with diesel.

Sure they're making it up on some of their groceries if you're doing it via food purchases. But in this case I know it was a loss-leader for them. I love loss-leaders.

Debit cards are just a tool. Link them to an account all by themselves with no access to other accounts at separate institutions if you "need" to use one. Brain dead easy.

But hey, Barclay's sent me "real" credit card number five for internal fraud this week, and they still can't figure it out. They've got to be the worst organization I've seen yet for having to replace their cards all the time.

That's really not a bad idea at all. Price Chopper (which happens to be one of the better supermarket chains around here) has a fuel discount arrangement with Sunoco (which happens to be the dominant gas brand around here). I should check whether Price Shopper sell Sunoco gift cards. If they do, Maybe I'll buy one, load it with a few hundred bucks, and take the double gas points. I've considered getting a Sunoco credit card, but I don't care very much for Citibank, for reasons that would get this thread tossed into SZ.

For Exxon and Mobil, I have an AAMCO credit card with a zero balance and a credit limit that exceeds the book value of either of my "mature" cars. It's also never been used at AAMCO. But it works at Exxon and Mobil stations and some other car-related companies (Discount Tires Direct, Pep Boys, I think Midas, and various others); so I use it at those places once in a while just to keep the account open and get the various rebates and discounts they offer. The last time I bought new tires for my Saturn, a set of General Altimax RT's cost me, I think, $43.00 / each -- including shipping -- by the time the rebates and discounts were factored in.

They're good tires, by the way. I was surprised how well they handled the snow this past winter the few times I took the Saturn out or got caught in it. (I usually drive my Kia Sportage in the snow.)

Anyway, back to the topic, I've started to acquire single-retailer or limited-use credit cards without the MasterCard / Visa / Discover / Amex logos. I think those would be less attractive to thieves, which I think makes them a bit safer than the big logo cards. I've already picked up a Wal-Mart card, a Care Credit card for medical / dental bills (both underwritten by G.E., as is the AAMCO card); Firestone, and some others. I also have an existing account with Gettington, which is an online retailer owned by the same outfit as Fingerhut, but with surprisingly good prices and service.

I used to shy away from these sorts of limited-use cards, but I've become persuaded that they're safer than the big logo cards. The interest rates tend to be high, but that doesn't matter if you don't carry a balance; there are no annual fees; they usually offer x-number of months interest-free financing on big-ticket items; and they also offer some special discounts and deals once in a while -- undoubtedly in the hope of getting you to carry a balance. But as long as you don't take the bait, these accounts are not a bad deal at all.

-Rich

 

[onwards]

I used to shy away from these sorts of limited-use cards, but I've become persuaded that they're safer than the big logo cards

Define safe.

Non-logo cards are not subject to PCI rules. Therefore, they do not require any of the protections on retailer back-end systems that PCI does. And I know of a few cases where indeed, these cards are treated differently, including basic stuff (like their account numbers not being encrypted).

 

[JoseCuervo]

T.)

Anyway, back to the topic, I've started to acquire single-retailer or limited-use credit cards without the MasterCard / Visa / Discover / Amex logos. I think those would be less attractive to thieves, which I think makes them a bit safer than the big logo cards. I've already picked up a Wal-Mart card, a Care Credit card for medical / dental bills (both underwritten by G.E., as is the AAMCO card); Firestone, and some others. I also have an existing account with Gettington, which is an online retailer owned by the same outfit as Fingerhut, but with surprisingly good prices and service.

I used to shy away from these sorts of limited-use cards, but I've become persuaded that they're safer than the big logo cards. The interest rates tend to be high, but that doesn't matter if you don't carry a balance; there are no annual fees; they usually offer x-number of months interest-free financing on big-ticket items; and they also offer some special discounts and deals once in a while -- undoubtedly in the hope of getting you to carry a balance. But as long as you don't take the bait, these accounts are not a bad deal at all.

-Rich

What kind of Visa credit card do you have that doesn't indemnify you for fraud?

 

[denverpilot]

Define safe.



Non-logo cards are not subject to PCI rules. Therefore, they do not require any of the protections on retailer back-end systems that PCI does. And I know of a few cases where indeed, these cards are treated differently, including basic stuff (like their account numbers not being encrypted).

PCI is a sad joke, anyway. You have to love the irony of an industry that imposes security restrictions on shopkeepers of tiny shops, that they themselves can't even be bothered to keep. Not a single card issuer claims nor has any interest in claiming their own internal systems meet the PCI requirements they made up out of thin air.

Ever seen any peer-reviewed papers or data on the effectiveness or appropriateness of anything in PCI?

And you won't... The reason is, PCI *auditing* makes the very people who would normally flame-broil the giant holes in PCI, a crap-ton of cash.

The whole computer "security" industry is one place scratching the other's back while the root causes are never fixed.

It'll never self-regulate into anything truly better.

 

[RJM62]

Define safe.

Non-logo cards are not subject to PCI rules. Therefore, they do not require any of the protections on retailer back-end systems that PCI does. And I know of a few cases where indeed, these cards are treated differently, including basic stuff (like their account numbers not being encrypted).

In terms of being less valuable to thieves. A major logo card can be used at more places.

-Rich

 

[RJM62]

What kind of Visa credit card do you have that doesn't indemnify you for fraud?

As far as I know, they all do. Once their investigation is done, anyway. And if it's a credit card (as opposed to a debit card), you shouldn't have to pay on the disputed balances during that time. But they're still more attractive to thieves than limited-use, non-logo cards.

-Rich

 

[JohnWF]

I am one of those seniors mentioned above. I keep a balance, never over $1K in a debit account, so I could never get ripped off more than that. In another bank, I keep my major checking account with a "lock" on it that prevents electronic withdrawals of any sort.

I keep the two accounts separate because two accounts in one bank under one name is asking for trouble.

Keeping the debit account low...used only for gas purchases, and now and then for groceries if I don't have enough cash in my picket at the time..limits my exposure to whatever amount I allow the debit account to grow to..usually around $500, but never over $1K. Only once in 25-years was there a fraudulent charge on the debit account.. $6-7 dollars only, bank made it good. Master Charge card.

FWIW

 

[us AAirways]

I have a separate bank account for Paypal, a separate account for my debit card/direct deposit/checking, and a separate savings account. All at different banks. I only keep enough in my checking to pay my bills, and a small amount in my PayPal bank account. I use cash/credit cards at stores/gas/resturants. Usually cash. NEVER a debit card.

I have a debit card, but don't have it with me unless I am out of town. Then only for cash from an atm if for some reason my credit card didn't work. If I had to use it, I would tell the bank I 'lost' it and ask for a new one with new numbers when I returned home.

I have friends that use debit cards for everything, even McDonald's.

 

[Bill]

I have friends that use debit cards for everything, even McDonald's.

When we first got married, my wife used debit cards and carried her checkbook and paid many things by check as well. NO and NO.

She's since come around. Everything goes thru credit cards that pay miles.

 

[Dr. O]

Actually, IMO your wife is the smart one by using a check. There are advantages.
No cash being flashed on the counter to tempt the grab and run artist - or be dropped when distracted.
She can get the cash price - usually 3% or so.
No one can scam her card - even if you are protected you have to notice it in time and report it in time - a time and hassle factor.
And:
Having to write the check short circuits a lot of the impulse purchases.
And I find that having cash in my pocket is even more of a curb on impulse purchasing - but hey, that's me.. ymmv
Now having said that, I also use cards.
The card is better for vacations, etc. where an out of town check is a hassle and swiping at the pump makes gas and go faster. And internet purchases almost require a card - but there is PayPal who can add a layer of card protection. I used to hate them, but like Stockholm Syndrome I have come to love them.

One card is for my businesses so that I don't have to save receipts and all that crap. And I have some secondary warranty protection for defective products and some theft insurance.
And a personal card for the larger and expensive purchases, that also gives me those secondary benefits.
And the benefits are paid for by the merchant as I use a card with no annual fee and no other charges if paid on time every month - I never carry a balance.
Once I screwed up and missed a month. Cost me $30 in interest charges. I'm still in therapy for that

 

[N801BH]

Actually, IMO your wife is the smart one by using a check. There are advantages.
No cash being flashed on the counter to tempt the grab and run artist - or be dropped when distracted.
She can get the cash price - usually 3% or so.
No one can scam her card - even if you are protected you have to notice it in time and report it in time - a time and hassle factor.
And:
Having to write the check short circuits a lot of the impulse purchases.
And I find that having cash in my pocket is even more of a curb on impulse purchasing - but hey, that's me.. ymmv
Now having said that, I also use cards.
The card is better for vacations, etc. where an out of town check is a hassle and swiping at the pump makes gas and go faster. And internet purchases almost require a card - but there is PayPal who can add a layer of card protection. I used to hate them, but like Stockholm Syndrome I have come to love them.

One card is for my businesses so that I don't have to save receipts and all that crap. And I have some secondary warranty protection for defective products and some theft insurance.
And a personal card for the larger and expensive purchases, that also gives me those secondary benefits.
And the benefits are paid for by the merchant as I use a card with no annual fee and no other charges if paid on time every month - I never carry a balance.
Once I screwed up and missed a month. Cost me $30 in interest charges. I'm still in therapy for that

I run my life the exact same way and with the same outcome....

ps.. I did screw up too.. once.... And it took 35 years of intense therapy to recover.......

 

[kontiki]

A lot of this thread reads like a great reason to protect the right to carry firearms.

So many people, particularly liberals in large cities, seem to believe someone is able to watch over their safety; to the extent they might be rescued like on TV.

Just about no mater where you are, if something bad is going to happen to you, it's up to you to take immediate actions that might preserve your safety.

 

[denverpilot]

A lot of this thread reads like a great reason to protect the right to carry firearms.

So many people, particularly liberals in large cities, seem to believe someone is able to watch over their safety; to the extent they might be rescued like on TV.

Just about no mater where you are, if something bad is going to happen to you, it's up to you to take immediate actions that might preserve your safety.

Shoot the credit card bankers?

 

[Palmpilot]

...So many people, particularly liberals in large cities, seem to believe someone is able to watch over their safety; to the extent they might be rescued like on TV...

Nobody ever talks about the foibles of conservatives in these threads. I wonder why?