DB Cooper a Boeing engineer on SST?

I thought they investigated a possible Boeing connection long ago, not too long after it happened.
 
mscard88 said:
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I thought so too, but ignoring the media links and going to directly to the source, they found some interesting metal chips embedded in the tie.

http://www.citizensleuths.com/titaniumparticles.html

And not only did their conclusions not name Boeing, they specifically excluded the aviation industry.

Fact: In 1971, titanium was a strategic metal primarily used in military aircraft, some civilian aircraft and highly corrosive industrial plants. Metallic titanium was not found in consumer products at that time.

Fact: All titanium used in aircraft is alloyed and the Cooper material was pure titanium.
Interpretation: Due to the lack of alloyed titanium, Cooper did not work in the aircraft industry.

Fact: Spiral chips of aluminum and other exotic metals like bismuth and stainless steel were found on the tie.
Fact: Spiral aluminum chips of the type found on the tie are made in metal fabrication plants that use lathes and drill presses.
Interpretation: Cooper worked in or had access to, an exotic metal fabrication facility that contained titanium, aluminum and other specialty metals​



Spiral_sml.jpg

Fig. 6 Sprial aluminum chip. One of two found on the tie. (Length = 1.6mm)

tipart01_sml.jpg

Fig. 5 Titanium piece with embedded stainless steel particle at top. The color coding is green for titanium and red for iron. (Length = 0.43mm)

tibar_sml.jpg

Fig. 1 Microscopic bar of titanium metal found on Cooper's tie. Inset shows elemental signature via x-ray spectroscopy. (Length = 60 microns)
 
If that's what his tie looked like, imagine what his lungs looked like.
 
Who is dumb enough to wear a tie in a machine shop? Find that one person and you've got DB. easy-peasy
 
Clark1961 said:
Who is dumb enough to wear a tie in a machine shop? Find that one person and you've got DB. easy-peasy
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Supervisors and engineers were REQUIRED to wear button up shirts with ties on the shop floor in the day in many companies. I was still doing so as late as the early 90s. For safety reasons, it had to be stuffed down your shirt, or be clip on, however. Glad those days are over.
 
Who says pure Ti isn't used in aircraft? Its used for heat shields all the time. CP or commercially pure Ti is an excellent material for that as it is easily formed and worked and handles vibration and heat well. We used it on indycars as well having gotten the idea from the aircraft industry......
most of these heat shields had holes drilled in them for attachment.

Frank
 
ElPaso Pilot said:
Supervisors and engineers were REQUIRED to wear button up shirts with ties on the shop floor in the day in many companies. I was still doing so as late as the early 90s. For safety reasons, it had to be stuffed down your shirt, or be clip on, however. Glad those days are over.
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Love it, required to be stupid. I assure you I was an engineer and a supervisor in the 90s. Never wore jewelry or a tie near industrial equipment.

I was taught the no jewelry, no hair, no loose clothing that could be caught back in the 70s.
 
Or the tie was stolen.

My dad taught a machine shop operations class in the 60s. He wore a tie but had a machinist/welders apron that covered most of the tie.
 
designrs said:
He was definitely very familiar with that plane and aviation, however he was lacking as a skydiver.
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Lacking?? Seems like he had mad skills to me. Anyone who can bail from a 727 in dark night, rainy weather over dense terrain and never leave behind any evidence of a parachute, nor be seen again is far from lacking as a skydiver.
 
I know the prevailing theory is he didn't survive the jump but man... this is just such a great story I kinda hope that some old man on his deathbed sends a letter to a major news outlet someday and we find out he's been living comfortably on a tropical island somewhere for all these years.
 
Clark1961 said:
Love it, required to be stupid. I assure you I was an engineer and a supervisor in the 90s. Never wore jewelry or a tie near industrial equipment.

I was taught the no jewelry, no hair, no loose clothing that could be caught back in the 70s.
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Stupid it was.

The "no jewelry" comment is funny.

Had a supervisor lose his position over that one in the same plant. Went out on a bender one night; came to work the next morning with a single stud in his ear. The super pulled him off the floor and demoted him on the spot.

He made it clear that there would be no men working for him who would even think about wearing an earring.

And this was at one of the automotive big three.
 
Ryanb said:
Lacking?? Seems like he had mad skills to me. Anyone who can bail from a 727 in dark night, rainy weather over dense terrain and never leave behind any evidence of a parachute, nor be seen again is far from lacking as a skydiver.
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The other point to consider is who, in their right mind, would pick those conditions for their very first jump? Without knowledge of the parachute and harness, without considering how to land without getting hurt, even in nominal conditions?

Seems to me that Cooper had some level of experience.

Strangely enough, the non-alloyed titanium may have excluded him from the aviation industry, but NOT the space industry. The Kent Space Center, just a few miles from Sea-Tac airport, was heavily into Apollo, Skylab, various satellites, and the Minuteman program back then. I started there ten years later...maybe *I* knew the guy.

Ron Wanttaja
 
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cowman said:
I know the prevailing theory is he didn't survive the jump but man... this is just such a great story I kinda hope that some old man on his deathbed sends a letter to a major news outlet someday and we find out he's been living comfortably on a tropical island somewhere for all these years.
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Apparently there has been several death bed confessions from people confessing to being Dan Cooper.
 
BiffJ said:
Who says pure Ti isn't used in aircraft? Its used for heat shields all the time. CP or commercially pure Ti is an excellent material for that as it is easily formed and worked and handles vibration and heat well. We used it on indycars as well having gotten the idea from the aircraft industry......
most of these heat shields had holes drilled in them for attachment.

Frank
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I was going to reply to state the same. Compure Ti would not be typically used for structural purposes, but it is commonly used for non-structural, highly contoured parts including fairings and heat shields... I could spit out dozens of current production part numbers which are made using CP Ti. It is all over the place in current engine installations.

Titanium was widely used in commercial aircraft engine installations back then as well - here is an article from Flight Global in 1973 discussing various titanium honeycomb structures and their application in commercial aircraft, including the 747, DC-10, and Concorde.

"Also evolved from Astech's all welded honeycomb products is Stresskin diffusion-bonded titanium honeycomb, developed within ten months in 1968 for America's SST programme."

https://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1973/1973 - 1729.PDF

Interesting, all 3 companies they mention, Astech, Rohr, and Aeronca (yes, that Aeronca) are still in the business of making titanium honeycomb parts for aircraft. Astech is now a division of GKN, Rohr was bought by Goodrich, who then was sold to United Technologies, and Aeronca was folded into Magellan Aerospace. I've been to the Astech and Rohr facilities, never been to Aeronca, but have worked a few programs where they supplied parts.
 
wanttaja said:
The other point to consider is who, in their right mind, would pick those conditions for their very first jump? Without knowledge of the parachute and harness, without considering how to land without getting hurt, even in nominal conditions?

Seems to me that Cooper had some level of experience.

Strangely enough, the non-allowed titanium may have excluded him from the aviation industry, but NOT the space industry. The Kent Space Center, just a few miles from Sea-Tac airport, was heavily into Apollo, Skylab, various satellites, and the Minuteman program back then. I started there ten years later...maybe *I* knew the guy.

Ron Wanttaja
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I agree Ron. He definitely had experience with both the aviation side of things as well as the parachute jumping. I've read about one of the many possibilities as to who Cooper was and one of the potential suspects was said to have extensive skydiving experience after being a paratrooper in the Army. I'd say that's certainly a possibility, but to say that he "was lacking as a skydiver" is complete nonsense. The man was skilled, in more ways than one...I'll give him that.
 
The one thing that has always bothered me a little bit was that he didn't bring his own chute. Would you really trust the FBI supplied chutes to be operational?
 
Sac Arrow said:
The one thing that has always bothered me a little bit was that he didn't bring his own chute. Would you really trust the FBI supplied chutes to be operational?
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Another argument for an experienced jumper. He had time to inspect, or even re-pack at least one of the chutes. Besides, even in the '70s, having a parachute as your carry-on luggage might have attracted some attention.

If they guy HADN'T jumped before, you have to admire him. The vast majority of folks wouldn't even consider it, and this guy would have done it with no experience and probably limited knowledge. He probably died because the chute couldn't support both him and his very big pair of brass appendages.....

Ron Wanttaja
 
Sac Arrow said:
The one thing that has always bothered me a little bit was that he didn't bring his own chute. Would you really trust the FBI supplied chutes to be operational?
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I can't find a reference at the moment, but I thought one of the FBI chutes was a dummy reserve and incapable of being used?
 
Of course, being stupid (or crazy) enough to jump in those conditions could reasonably be seen as evidence he didn't know anything about skydiving.
 
Dana said:
Of course, being stupid (or crazy) enough to jump in those conditions could reasonably be seen as evidence he didn't know anything about skydiving.
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If that was the case Dana, there would have been evidence found. It would be very difficult to bail out in those conditions over that terrain and not leave any evidence post-jump if he didn't know anything out the sport. He was certainly being stupid and crazy, but he was skilled.
 
Maybe Obama should have pardoned Cooper rather than that weird Manning traitor dude. Then maybe Cooper would come forward if still alive. If he could prove who he was, there could be a book/movie deal in it for him.
 
Sac Arrow said:
The one thing that has always bothered me a little bit was that he didn't bring his own chute. Would you really trust the FBI supplied chutes to be operational?
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He asked for more than one chute which meant there was the possibility he would force a crewmember or passenger to jump with any of the parachutes supplied. I don't think the FBI would risk supplying a bad chute(s) and being responsible for the death of an innocent passenger even though chances are the innocent person would be killed jumping even with a good chute.
 
Ryanb said:
If that was the case Dana, there would have been evidence found. It would be very difficult to bail out in those conditions over that terrain and not leave any evidence post-jump if he didn't know anything out the sport. He was certainly being stupid and crazy, but he was skilled.
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I believe some of the marked money was recovered in the forest but no trace of DB. Mountainous, forested terrain could easily conceal a dead DB Cooper that won't be found for a hundred years, if ever. I tend to believe he knew about skydiving but I also believe he didn't survive his last jump.
 
wanttaja said:
Another argument for an experienced jumper. He had time to inspect, or even re-pack at least one of the chutes. Besides, even in the '70s, having a parachute as your carry-on luggage might have attracted some attention.

If they guy HADN'T jumped before, you have to admire him. The vast majority of folks wouldn't even consider it, and this guy would have done it with no experience and probably limited knowledge. He probably died because the chute couldn't support both him and his very big pair of brass appendages.....

Ron Wanttaja
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I'm not sure how one would repack a chute in the aisle of a 727 without
Witmo said:
I believe some of the marked money was recovered in the forest but no trace of DB. Mountainous, forested terrain could easily conceal a dead DB Cooper that won't be found for a hundred years, if ever. I tend to believe he knew about skydiving but I also believe he didn't survive his last jump.
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I suspect the same. If he in fact augured it in, no chute say, the animals would probably take care of his remains before searchers would be able to reach him.

The plan was solid. I've sat near the tail of a C141 during an air drop when the rear ramp was lowered. You could have lit a match. Stepping off the rear stairs of an airplane doesn't get prettier from the aspect of the jumper. But you wouldn't have found some of the cash if he had made it to the ground in one piece.
 
Witmo said:
I believe some of the marked money was recovered in the forest but no trace of DB. Mountainous, forested terrain could easily conceal a dead DB Cooper that won't be found for a hundred years, if ever. I tend to believe he knew about skydiving but I also believe he didn't survive his last jump.
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Most likely, especially as some of the money was found... though it's not impossible that he was ignorant of the danger but very lucky.
 
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