Darned Road Alligators

Bob Noel said:
A while back I looked at the NHTSA data on car accidents in the USA but before texting was particularly popular. I looked at the period from before cellphones until cellphones were ubiquitous. The way some people think about cellphone use while driving, you'd expect that the accident rate would have skyrocketed. Nope. Remained flat or dipped slightly.
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My opinion is that is is difficult to correlate phone use with accidents due to other distractions or new technology. Adaptive cruise control, for example, allows people to be distracted as long as they stay in their lane and they can still play with their phone because the car now keeps them from running up on someone.
MauleSkinner said:
Maybe the people prone to cell phone accidents are going to find a way to get into an accident anyway. As @EdFred indicated, distractions from passenger conversations are at least as dangerous.

Of course, wandering back and forth between mid-opposite lane to curb must be safe if there’s no accident. :rolleyes:
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Agree, and with cars with some degree of automation or alarms reduce the possibility of distracted driving accidents. This ranges from Tesla ottopilot (or whatever they call it) to adaptive cruise control, lane alerts, and "stick shakers" if the car thinks you are going to sleep. I once tried a semi-automated rental Nissan and it would use the brakes if you were too close to the car in front of you, and even apply the brakes to a full stop! I was triggered to stop/slow the car if it was too close for the speed I was approaching the vehicle at the stop light.

The only way really to correlate phone/texting to an accident is to get the phone records from the time of the accident and I think that is rarely done.
 
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I was in a pack of vehicles running down the turnpike from OKC to Tulsa back in my college days. GF was in the passenger seat of the Camaro, t-tops off, running 80-85mph with tight traffic spacing on a Friday. Everyone trying to get home. Semi truck about 6 cars up blows a tire, I see the tell-tale smoke but didn't have much room to maneuver while all of the vehicles in both lanes were taking evasive action. I see the slab of semi-truck tire tread sling out from the back of the car ahead of me and I managed to swerve and hit it with my tires. That tread then fired out of the rear of my Camaro and went right into the windshield of the newer Mercedes S-class that was up on my rear bumper. Clearly demolished his windshield and after a mile of him flashing his headlights at me, I pull over to see what he wants. Guy gets out of his Mercedes and starts talking about seeing my insurance . . . which I promptly denied him and told him I'm not responsible for the damage. I get in to leave and he says he's "going to call the highway patrol", so I told him to go ahead and do it. While he's at it he can point to the spot on my tires where the tire tread came from, lol. My GF calls the highway patrol and then hands her phone to the peeved alligator victim and the patrolman proceeds to tell him there's no real recourse for it, better luck next time. He hands the phone back and says the lesson to learn is that we "shouldn't follow so closely" (as if I had control of how close he tucked in behind me).

I lucked out that there was no damage, but had I not been paying attention to the traffic several cars ahead of me, I probably would have hit the tire tread dead-on and made a mess of the F-body nose.
 
Let's see.
Helping a buddy move in some years ago. The moving van had arrived straight from Texas - got to chatting with the driver. He had a helper, but didn't trust him to drive, so he had been driving for 20 some hours straight and when the truck was empty had another 10 or so to get home. But he had a TV in the cab so he could watch to keep from falling asleep.

Last week, OTOH, sitting in the right lane driving the limit, there is a person right on my bumper driving while holding the cell phone up with the right hand so they could see what was happening and read at the same time. I got to my exit, signaled, eased over into the exit lane, the car behind followed. Then, at the last second, the car swerved back into the right lane. Apparently the "just tailgate the car in front of you while reading / texting" strategy has it's drawbacks.
 
kyleb said:
Hands free is a thing. ;-)

We have laws here about holding your phone while driving. I follow 'em.
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With respect, maybe you should have followed the science, which says and hands-free or not is irrelevant. Then that 'gator might not have surprised you. Any driving while talking on the phone has been experimentally shown to be similar to driving drunk in terms of its effects on safety. When I get a call with my wife in the car I have her answer it. If I have to talk I pull over.

The fiction that hands-free matters is a product of the cell phone industry's lobbyists.
 
Be sure to drive something STRONG. My Jeep Wrangler has been in two accidents and won both. The first was with a car that turned into my lane on the freeway. I stood on the brakes and leaned on the horn and she kept coming. Just before impact I turned the wheel into her so I would minimize damage to the Jeep. We both pulled over and called the state patrol. No damage was visible on the Jeep and there was about $1000 worth of damage to the sheet metal on her car, which her insurance covered. They sent me a check for about $300 as they said I had damaged my fender. I didn't see any, but had the front end alignment checked to I wouldn't mess up the tires. The second one was when I plowed into the driver's door of a pickup truck that illegally continued around a traffic circle in front of me. I noted that the driver of the truck had an ID lanyard that said she worked for the state department of transportation. She didn't learn how to deal with traffic circles while working there. Her insurance company paid for having some sheet metal damage fixed on my Jeep, although I had no trouble driving it until it went into the shop. Lesson learned, drive a Jeep.

We gave our daughter a used Wrangler when she graduated from college. She got rear ended by a Chevy pickup trick on the freeway when she slowed down for traffic and he didn't. A bunch of damage to the rear of her Jeep, but it was still drivable. The truck needed a tow truck to put it back on its wheels. Jeep 1, Chevy 0.
 
airdale said:
With respect, maybe you should have followed the science, which says and hands-free or not is irrelevant. Then that 'gator might not have surprised you.
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The gator didn't surprise me. I saw it before the pickup in front of me hit it with his left tires. The question was where it would go when he hit it. If it went left, I'd have had a minor adjustment to miss it. It moved right and there was nowhere to go. Atlanta traffic, you see...
 
Sac Arrow said:
When I was a staff engineer at a utility, one of my interns was a ditzy blonde who was driving home on a mountain road late night when she saw a cardboard box on the road. Figuring it was probably a bad idea to swerve to avoid it, she hit it.

The box contained an engine block. Her car was completely totalled.
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Still the best option.
 
airdale said:
With respect, maybe you should have followed the science, which says and hands-free or not is irrelevant. Then that 'gator might not have surprised you. Any driving while talking on the phone has been experimentally shown to be similar to driving drunk in terms of its effects on safety. When I get a call with my wife in the car I have her answer it. If I have to talk I pull over.

The fiction that hands-free matters is a product of the cell phone industry's lobbyists.
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It all depends on the person on the phone. When I'm driving and talking on the phone I will focus on the road and zone out on the phone. I will often ask whoever I'm talking to, to repeat themselves because I will tell them I'm focused on the road. So the science isn't necessarily exact. Some people can't prioritize.
 
I guess it’s too much to expect that truckers maintain their rigs and use quality tires that don’t routinely blow apart.
 
ateamer said:
I guess it’s too much to expect that truckers maintain their rigs and use quality tires that don’t routinely blow apart.
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Not quite that simple. Heavy loads, high temps, road debris will still result in tires blowing up in spectacular fashion. Many tires will show nothing on the exterior when a trucker does the safety walk-around that day. Retreads are a different story, though.
 
SoonerAviator said:
Not quite that simple. Heavy loads, high temps, road debris will still result in tires blowing up in spectacular fashion. Many tires will show nothing on the exterior when a trucker does the safety walk-around that day. Retreads are a different story, though.
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Airlines use retreads as do many GA types. I have no problem with them, but they do love to come apart if you have low tire pressure.
 
ateamer said:
I guess it’s too much to expect that truckers maintain their rigs and use quality tires that don’t routinely blow apart.
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Most truckers, unless their EO, have little control over the equipment they drive, that's up to the corporate bean counters.
 
EdFred said:
It all depends on the person on the phone. When I'm driving and talking on the phone I will focus on the road and zone out on the phone. I will often ask whoever I'm talking to, to repeat themselves because I will tell them I'm focused on the road. So the science isn't necessarily exact. Some people can't prioritize.
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Got it. From that, I would conclude that you are also among the 80% of us who believe that we have above-average driving skills.
 
airdale said:
Got it. From that, I would conclude that you are also among the 80% of us who believe that we have above-average driving skills.
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I have a jump to conclusions mat you can have if you're interested in it.

I can only go by the numbers, and over the past couple decades I have less tickets and accidents than the average driver in my state. I also get more miles out of my tires, more miles out of my brakes, and I get better mileage than the window sticker. Maybe it means I'm better than average, maybe it means I'm smarter than average, or maybe it means absolutely nothing. Sorry I don't fit into your closed minded pigeon hole because I prioritize things differently than you or a lot of other people.

Aviate, Navigate, Communicate.

Sorry that when it comes to driving you have them reversed.
 
EdFred said:
It all depends on the person on the phone. When I'm driving and talking on the phone I will focus on the road and zone out on the phone. I will often ask whoever I'm talking to, to repeat themselves because I will tell them I'm focused on the road. So the science isn't necessarily exact. Some people can't prioritize.
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EdFred said:
I have a jump to conclusions mat you can have if you're interested in it.

I can only go by the numbers, and over the past couple decades I have less tickets and accidents than the average driver in my state. I also get more miles out of my tires, more miles out of my brakes, and I get better mileage than the window sticker. Maybe it means I'm better than average, maybe it means I'm smarter than average, or maybe it means absolutely nothing. Sorry I don't fit into your closed minded pigeon hole because I prioritize things differently than you or a lot of other people.

Aviate, Navigate, Communicate.

Sorry that when it comes to driving you have them reversed.
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We are talking statistics here. We can describe how a population fares with distracted driving, but not so much for an individual. Some people drive better than average, some drive worse than average (however we define "average"), some have good luck, and some have bad luck. Even as someone who can multitask better than most, one still reduces risk by eliminating distractions.
 
EdFred said:
... I can only go by the numbers, and over the past couple decades I have less tickets and accidents than the average driver in my state. I also get more miles out of my tires, more miles out of my brakes, and I get better mileage than the window sticker. Maybe it means I'm better than average, maybe it means I'm smarter than average, or maybe it means absolutely nothing. Sorry I don't fit into your closed minded pigeon hole because I prioritize things differently than you or a lot of other people. ...
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This is not a new thing. As it happens I have been recently re-reading "Against the Gods; The Remarkable Story of Risk" by Peter Bernstein where he quotes 18th century economist Adam Smith's observation of some human delusions: "The overweening conceit which the greater part of men have of their own abilities [and] their absurd presumption in their own good fortune." More recently behavioral economist Richard Thaler and psychologist Daniel Kahneman, both Nobel prize winners, have explained the effect this syndrome has on day-to-day human behavior.

But hey, @EdFred, I get it. Upon self examination you have determined that you are a superior being and anyone who does not recognize your brilliance is "closed minded." Have a nice day.
 
airdale said:
This is not a new thing. As it happens I have been recently re-reading "Against the Gods; The Remarkable Story of Risk" by Peter Bernstein where he quotes 18th century economist Adam Smith's observation of some human delusions: "The overweening conceit which the greater part of men have of their own abilities [and] their absurd presumption in their own good fortune." More recently behavioral economist Richard Thaler and psychologist Daniel Kahneman, both Nobel prize winners, have explained the effect this syndrome has on day-to-day human behavior.

But hey, @EdFred, I get it. Upon self examination you have determined that you are a superior being and anyone who does not recognize your brilliance is "closed minded." Have a nice day.
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I found some words in my mouth that you put there. Either that or you have well below average reading comprehension, or just ignored the part where I said it might mean absolutely nothing. Either way, what you are insinuating is nothing near what I said. But it it makes you sleep better at night you misconstrue what I said, have at it. It says way more about you than it does me.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
My opinion is that is is difficult to correlate phone use with accidents due to other distractions or new technology. Adaptive cruise control, for example, allows people to be distracted as long as they stay in their lane and they can still play with their phone because the car now keeps them from running up on someone.
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valid considerations, except I had looked at the data before such safety features were available (2004)
 
The sorta good news is that the repair shop may have my car done early next week. The other good news is they are replacing both under-bumper fog/driving lights. One is sitting on the side of I-75 somewhere, and the other one is still attached but cracked. It was broken before this little incident, so I'm getting a "free" <ahem> fog light for my $100 deductible. Small victories...
 
Bob Noel said:
valid considerations, except I had looked at the data before such safety features were available (2004)
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I'd suggest there were fewer distractions back then, too. Smart phones weren't so smart, and the network was limited to voice and text for most people. There were fewer options for unlimited voice and text, and limited data. Smart phones only started being popular after 2007 when the iPhone came out. Back then, people weren't chatting so much because those apps didn't yet exist. Limited data meant no chat, no games, and no movies to watch while driving. People talked on the phone less because making and receiving calls was more expensive. People had cell phones, but they were used less often.

Another thing to consider is that distracted drivers do things to allow some extra time to respond, and that makes them very annoying when sharing the road with them. They leave more space in front of them, people move into the empty space, and the distracted driver drives slower, annoying people even more. Or they drive in formation with another car, essentially blocking two lanes- I've seen two accidents from others letting another car do their driving until the lane they were in was stopped, and the other lane wasn't. I agree I'm only a single data point and maybe I have the luck to see these sort of accidents.
 
EdFred said:
I found some words in my mouth that you put there.
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That’s ok, he put words in Bernstein’s and/or Smith’s mouths, too. Unless “the greater part of men” means 100%.

apparently his ability to apply quotations isn’t as good as he thinks it is. :p
 
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MauleSkinner said:
That’s ok, he put words in Bernstein’s and/or Smith’s mouths, too. Unless “the greater part of men” means 100%.

apparently his ability to apply quotations isn’t as good as he thinks it is. :p
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Would you please post the correct quote? Thanks in advance.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Thank you for making the correction.
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Not sure I see the point of this other than to show that being a clerk/typist is not my forte. Which I concede. The idea that we humans have been programmed by evolution to believe we are exceptional and lucky is settled science. In addition to being well known to psychologists, it is also very well known to the marketers of casinos and lotteries. It is also the reason that games of chance appear even in prehistory. Viewed from that angle, I think any form of distracted driving is simply another game of chance where we are programmed to believe we are both exceptional and lucky.
 
MauleSkinner said:
You’re welcome. If you have further questions, please actually read my post.
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I did, and I still couldn't understand it.
airdale said:
Not sure I see the point of this other than to show that being a clerk/typist is not my forte. Which I concede. The idea that we humans have been programmed by evolution to believe we are exceptional and lucky is settled science. In addition to being well known to psychologists, it is also very well known to the marketers of casinos and lotteries. It is also the reason that games of chance appear even in prehistory. Viewed from that angle, I think any form of distracted driving is simply another game of chance where we are programmed to believe we are both exceptional and lucky.
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I think you replied to the wrong person? I wasn't disputing you at all. I wasn't trying to dispute @MauleSkinner either, that is difficult to do when the post didn't seem to show a difference from what you wrote.
 
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