Dale Snodgrass crash in Idaho

Could very well be a lapse in awareness. Not that Dale was forgetful or had a history of poor ADM but he did land gear up in an F-86 back in 2006 at an air show. Forgot to put the gear down. It happens to the best of them.
 
Juan Brown is thinking runaway elevator trim could be an issue.
 
Juan Brown is thinking runaway elevator trim could be an issue.
 
PaulS said:
Juan Brown is thinking runaway elevator trim could be an issue.
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I just don’t see ANY attitude adjustment at all. Nose goes up, doesn’t ever appear to go down. I’d think if it was runaway trim you’d at least have SOME chance of pushing it over.
 
eman1200 said:
I just don’t see ANY attitude adjustment at all. Nose goes up, doesn’t ever appear to go down. I’d think if it was runaway trim you’d at least have SOME chance of pushing it over.
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His theory was due to the turbine engine, the trim is more powerful and might not have been able to be overcome.

 
I’ve flown all manner of runaway trim emergencies in a dozen simulators... not sure a plane can be certified if a runaway trim can’t be overcome.

of course we have not considered the highly likely scenario that it is a combination. Indeed all mishaps are a chain of events, where if any link is broken, the mishap does NOT occur.

consider an aft, but legal CG, combined with runaway trim aggravated by a seat unlocking and sliding even a bit, coupled with wanting to demonstrate a short takeoff... this is where any three of the four can be overcome, at some point you have an unmanageable situation.
 
I don't buy the runaway trim theory. Why would he be using trim immediately after liftoff? Improperly set trim maybe but not runaway trim. Electric trims aren't that fast to begin with so I would have expected to see some bobbing of the nose if he was fighting the trim. I also can't imagine he was loaded all that heavy. I realize it's a powerful airplane but it got off really quickly and climbed like crazy. I would also think if he were that heavy he would lift the tail and let it run on the mains to gain speed. There just seemed to be absolutely no control movement at all.
 
Velocity173 said:
Could very well be a lapse in awareness. Not that Dale was forgetful or had a history of poor ADM but he did land gear up in an F-86 back in 2006 at an air show. Forgot to put the gear down. It happens to the best of them.
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Well there ya go. Without watching the video again, I think Juan Brown pointed out that the audio is NOT in sync with the video, IOW the point where he says, “Ah **** ****!” might not be exactly when he said it in real time. It would be telling if he had said it much earlier than depicted. “Much” is relative of course. If the gust lock was in place I would think you’d realize it (seconds) sooner than if something shifted or jammed the controls just after takeoff. In any case I don’t think there’s any way to differentially interpret his expletive as meaning “I screwed up” as opposed to “Something broke” from just the sound of it. Trying to interpret it from timing might be marginally enlightening, if still speculative.
 
Rushie said:
Well there ya go. Without watching the video again, I think Juan Brown pointed out that the audio is NOT in sync with the video, IOW the point where he says, “Ah **** ****!” might not be exactly when he said it in real time. It would be telling if he had said it much earlier than depicted. “Much” is relative of course. If the gust lock was in place I would think you’d realize it (seconds) sooner than if something shifted or jammed the controls just after takeoff. In any case I don’t think there’s any way to differentially interpret his expletive as meaning “I screwed up” as opposed to “Something broke” from just the sound of it. Trying to interpret it from timing might be marginally enlightening, if still speculative.
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I actually think the Ah **** **** was right after liftoff. This is sad, I hope they are able to find out what happened.
 
Rushie said:
Well there ya go. Without watching the video again, I think Juan Brown pointed out that the audio is NOT in sync with the video, IOW the point where he says, “Ah **** ****!” might not be exactly when he said it in real time. It would be telling if he had said it much earlier than depicted. “Much” is relative of course. If the gust lock was in place I would think you’d realize it (seconds) sooner than if something shifted or jammed the controls just after takeoff. In any case I don’t think there’s any way to differentially interpret his expletive as meaning “I screwed up” as opposed to “Something broke” from just the sound of it. Trying to interpret it from timing might be marginally enlightening, if still speculative.
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My guess is that he noticed a problem and was keying the mic to tell Tower and immediately realized he was losing control, hence the words that were broadcast. I’d estimate the transmission occurred right about the time the left wing was dropping.
 
After looking at some video a question: The pilot side wing kinda looks like there is something angled down. An aileron would make sense. But could that also be flaps left out?
 
The video is not all that clear. It's probably 4k but the aircraft is pretty far away so what we are looking at is a digitally zoomed image. Regardless, I've mentioned that if you freeze it around the 0:58 time mark and look at where the pilot's head is at in the side window, it's not right. His head is way back and low, not in the back seat but back where the rear seat panel is located. Watch other videos of these as well as Bird Dogs and you'll see the pilot sits really high and forward, it's an observation aircraft. The seat frame collapsing onto the control sticks torque tube would answer a lot of riddles such as him being unable to move either elevator or ailerons.
 
Sinistar said:
After looking at some video a question: The pilot side wing kinda looks like there is something angled down. An aileron would make sense. But could that also be flaps left out?
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That was my question as well. But my friend (who owns the same model) said the flap settings were OK. (see my previous post).
 
Just saw on FB that his wife wants the YT vid removed. I feel for her but that’s not gonna happen. Unfortunately we live in a world where everything is recorded and displayed for all to see.
 
Someone posted a comment on one of these videos that he has hours in the marchetti 1019 stated that when landing it requires lot of trim. If that Trim was not reset during take off with flaps down he stated 30 Degrees but that seems like a lot for take off the nose would climb straight up it due to the trim being left up. He said it had happened to him due to the 400 HP engine it has. Have no clue if that is possible wondering what you guys thought about this. If you pause the video at 0:57 you can see the flaps are down not sure how much. Unable to see what the trim position is video not high enough resolution due to someone using video zoom and panning it. I'm assuming this video came from a security camera that just had a wide angle of view.

Totally understand the wife hearing your husbands last words on YouTube. I understand why people want to figure this out, at the same time I can't imagine what his wife is going though. I wonder how they got the video from the airport security camera someone must have leaked it.
 
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Velocity173 said:
Just saw on FB that his wife wants the YT vid removed. I feel for her but that’s not gonna happen. Unfortunately we live in a world where everything is recorded and displayed for all to see.
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Understandable from her viewpoint .... but the world is full of all types of fatal crashes caught on tape.

I have a super high-definition picture of the last moment of life of stunt-wing-walker Jane Wicker .... she was sitting on the inverted wing during a low level pass when the pilot made an error and hit the ground .... her flesh is ripping .... goggles torn off ... and the expression on her face is absolutely tragic .... I will never publish it .... some news media did show that photo in low resolution but at the time did not realize she was visible in the cloud of dirt.

.
 
kell490 said:
Totally understand the wife hearing your husbands last words on YouTube. I understand why people want to figure this out, at the same time I can't imagine what his wife is going though. I wonder how they got the video from the airport security camera someone must have leaked it.
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I understand both sides too. But the value of pilots watching the crash itself is incalculable. Just in this thread, analysis of the video has resulted in discussion of numerous possible scenarios, possibly preventing another tragedy, even if they never determine the cause. Things we probably would never know without the video such as the three point takeoff, the angle of climb, etc.

On the other hand, not only do I feel for the widow, I feel for the bystanders on the tarmac, some personally identifiable, who have been excoriated by keyboard warriors for not immediately running to the crash and pulling the pilot out of the burning wreckage. Innocent people caught incidentally on video are targets of vicious attack on social media by idiots who don’t know what the hell they’re talking about. That bothers me a lot, but there is no putting the genie back in the bottle.

I had heard the airport “released” the video, don’t know if that was official or an unauthorized leak.
 
A pal had a runway trim incident in a Mooney. It took everything from the pilot and the passenger to keep the nose down, but they did it and made a safe landing. Safe for them, the airplane didn't fear too well.

She's a little old lady, by the way. I can't believe a fire-breathing fighter jet pilot could be undone by trim.
 
steingar said:
A pal had a runway trim incident in a Mooney. It took everything from the pilot and the passenger to keep the nose down, but they did it and made a safe landing. Safe for them, the airplane didn't fear too well.

She's a little old lady, by the way. I can't believe a fire-breathing fighter jet pilot could be undone by trim.
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No matter how strong you are, if the trim can overcome the authority of the elevator, there’d be nothing you could do, but as someone else in this thread suggested, it’s hard to believe they would have designed it so that could be a possibility.
 
Rushie said:
No matter how strong you are, if the trim can overcome the authority of the elevator, there’d be nothing you could do, but as someone else in this thread suggested, it’s hard to believe they would have designed it so that could be a possibility.
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They didn't. I have one fo the most trim-happy aircraft imaginable and I can overpower the trim. And I'm a tiny little fat old guy.
 
Rushie said:
No matter how strong you are, if the trim can overcome the authority of the elevator, there’d be nothing you could do, but as someone else in this thread suggested, it’s hard to believe they would have designed it so that could be a possibility.
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I thought that was a certification requirement, at least for transport category airplanes. Not sure about smaller ones.

I have done runaway trim and control surface jammed scenarios in jet simulators. One time I was quick enough to get my knee up on the yoke and pushed so hard that I broke the sim. At least I thought I broke it. Seems as if it slipped its clutch and therefore came off motion. The instructor said that he had never seen anyone do that before.
 
A Martin said:
Understandable from her viewpoint .... but the world is full of all types of fatal crashes caught on tape.

I have a super high-definition picture of the last moment of life of stunt-wing-walker Jane Wicker .... she was sitting on the inverted wing during a low level pass when the pilot made an error and hit the ground .... her flesh is ripping .... goggles torn off ... and the expression on her face is absolutely tragic .... I will never publish it .... some news media did show that photo in low resolution but at the time did not realize she was visible in the cloud of dirt.

.
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Could’ve made your point without the description.
 
Everskyward said:
Rushie said:
No matter how strong you are, if the trim can overcome the authority of the elevator, there’d be nothing you could do, but as someone else in this thread suggested, it’s hard to believe they would have designed it so that could be a possibility.
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I thought that was a certification requirement, at least for transport category airplanes. Not sure about smaller ones.
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Foreign military aircraft (licensed Experimental Exhibition in the US), hard to say what the original specifications were. Don't know how close of an L-19 clone it was.

However the trim worked, it would have been less effective at lower airspeeds and easier to countermand. From what I can tell from the video, this aircraft broke ground out of control. I'm leaning more toward the "cargo shift" hypothesis.

Ron Wanttaja
 
steingar said:
They didn't. I have one fo the most trim-happy aircraft imaginable and I can overpower the trim. And I'm a tiny little fat old guy.
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Not in your friend’s Mooney but like Paul said in post #85, this plane having a turbine engine, it might have been the case.
 
I won't watch the video again. Once was too many times.
I sort of met the man once...really just listened to him give a little talk to our small group. I'm very sad about this thing.

I had a seat failure once and I can surely imagine how that could be a cause. Mine wasn't a slide back failure though, more of a tip. Cessna 172N, The front to legs were off the track, I suppose sitting on top of it or next to it. Somehow I took off and flew the pattern ok but when flaring for landing the seat tipped back as if it were going all the way back. I only had hold of the yoke but I was young enough to have quick reflexes and grabbed the glareshield with my left hand...which is wobbly and not much of a hand hold, but it was enough for me to balance partially reclined and make a very sloppy but safe landing.
Had I been a milisecond slower, or if that glare shield wasn't grabbable, or if I had power in, etc....
Anyway, when I landed and got out, both front legs were completely loose.
 
Rushie said:
No matter how strong you are, if the trim can overcome the authority of the elevator, there’d be nothing you could do, but as someone else in this thread suggested, it’s hard to believe they would have designed it so that could be a possibility.
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It's a servo-tab trim just like a 172 except it has a tab on both sides rather than just one. So, as such it is not possible for it to overcome the authority of the elevator. In fact, the more nose up trim is dialed in the more nose down authority the elevator has because the trim tab is angled down effectively increasing the camber and the amount of lift the stab and elevator can produce. It's just like a flap except that in full nose down trim it would do the opposite. Also the control stick is enormous and looks to be about a meter long. Lots of leverage on that thing.

In regards to seat failure the locks letting the seat roll back in the tracks is not the only failure mode. The rollers and guides can come completely off the tracks or the seat frame support tubes can break. The Cessna AD has you inspect all of that.

I keep going back to the 0:58 point of the crash video and tried to find a picture with a comparable perspective. Look at how high and forward the pilot sits then look at where Dales head appears to be in the video. It's way too low and far back.

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snort.jpg
 
Silvaire said:
It's a servo-tab trim just like a 172 except it has a tab on both sides rather than just one. So, as such it is not possible for it to overcome the authority of the elevator. In fact, the more nose up trim is dialed in the more nose down authority the elevator has because the trim tab is angled down effectively increasing the camber and the amount of lift the stab and elevator can produce. It's just like a flap except that in full nose down trim it would do the opposite. Also the control stick is enormous and looks to be about a meter long. Lots of leverage on that thing.

In regards to seat failure the locks letting the seat roll back in the tracks is not the only failure mode. The rollers and guides can come completely off the tracks or the seat frame support tubes can break. The Cessna AD has you inspect all of that.

I keep going back to the 0:58 point of the crash video and tried to find a picture with a comparable perspective. Look at how high and forward the pilot sits then look at where Dales head appears to be in the video. It's way too low and far back.

d1afe8eca05ff57744554dc4e605a7c4f9cffcfb


View attachment 99072
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I was noticing that too and froze a frame perhaps slightly later than yours that seems to show no one at all. (I am not at that machine right now to post it.) It made me wonder if he was bending down to try to unjam something on the floor.
 
Have nothing to add other than my condolences to his wife and family. I read this column to remind myself there are many ways Ernie Gann’s ‘fate is the hunter’ can apply in our lives. Despite our best efforts to reduce risks, whether flying, driving, sitting on our couch, walking the dog, etc. unfortunate things happen. Age 72, deeply involved in building a new home, moving cross country, involved in managing a large business, flying multiple planes, let’s say distractions can be affect even the best of us.
 
Guess I will be doing more inspections of my Cessna seat. Maybe even buying the extra seat rail stops.
 
Matthew Rogers said:
Guess I will be doing more inspections of my Cessna seat. Maybe even buying the extra seat rail stops.
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To set my adjustment I was always in the habit of running the seat forward to the stops, then back I forget how many clicks. After my indecent I flew that 172 and many others quite a lot. I always gave a double check to make sure it was securely down. Looking back in time though, it's chilling... and I never really gave it the inspections it really deserves.
 
Met a Tomcat pilot at the Oshkosh HOPS party that had personal interaction with Snort. I know the vast majority of folks seeing this are saddened and affected in some way, but to interact with someone who had a direct, personal, professional connection with Snort... he was clearly moved in a much different way than most. (Coincidentally found out he was on my boat, Ike, for my last cruise, which was pretty cool.)

I hope that somehow investigators are able to determine what happened here, and with that knowledge, we can avoid tragedies like this in the future.
 
Saw on Snort’s FB page an air show safety inspector requesting the vids be taken down on YT again.

Kinda conflicted about this. Yes, in a perfect world these types of accidents shouldn’t be shown in a public forum like YT. It has no place on a non aviation site. Saw many aviation accident vids in the Army. Some get leaked, others fortunately for the sake of the families haven’t. I tend to agree that while sometimes graphic, these things can be an invaluable learning tool for other pilots. Even speculation if done with respect to the deceased, can be beneficial.

So the dilemma arises on what should be released and what shouldn’t. Personally, I think footage obtained from security cameras should be safe guarded and sent to the NTSB. To release it to some random dude who has a YT page is in poor taste. The other day I was recorded by a TN state road cam landing on I-75 and some YT dude put it on his channel. If I had balled it up, it would be there for all the world to see. It would be nice if there was some way of safeguarding that type of accident footage for the appropriate audience. Unfortunately with the laws that are in place, I seriously doubt that’ll happen.
 
I feel like if he hadn't broadcast those last 2 words it would be different. Hearing his reaction is a much bigger gut punch IMO.
You always wonder what goes through someone's mind. Pretty clear he shed some light on that for us. I can watch a plane crash video
but hearing the last words is sickening sometimes.
 
Well it's like I said in my first post. You crash and die in your car on the interstate and nobody hears about it but if you crash an Ercoupe into a bean field you'll be all over the news, they'll do a full autopsy and everyone will know if you took antihistamine's before your flight.
 
It's tough to watch that video, but in the end it's a public camera filming a public area. The audio is not part of the video so maybe that could be removed. I can't imagine what the family is going through.
 
PaulS said:
It's tough to watch that video, but in the end it's a public camera filming a public area. The audio is not part of the video so maybe that could be removed. I can't imagine what the family is going through.
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I kinda agree, it's public stuff, audio included. I understand the family's wishes but I totally understand how this stuff get out to the public.
 
Velocity173 said:
So the dilemma arises on what should be released and what shouldn’t. Personally, I think footage obtained from security cameras should be safe guarded and sent to the NTSB. To release it to some random dude who has a YT page is in poor taste. The other day I was recorded by a TN state road cam landing on I-75 and some YT dude put it on his channel. If I had balled it up, it would be there for all the world to see. It would be nice if there was some way of safeguarding that type of accident footage for the appropriate audience. Unfortunately with the laws that are in place, I seriously doubt that’ll happen.
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I can tell you from having to deal with a similar situation.

The camera at the airport is more than likely owned by a public entity. Open record laws vary from state to state, but CCTV video is usually considered a public record and must be released when requested. Again depending on the laws involved, there is little to prevent an individual from acquiring and sharing said video. You'll note the YT page in particular has a lot of video captured by airport CCTV.

Unfortunately decorum has gone right out the window.
 
Doc Holliday said:
Never heard of him.
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I don’t know why this gets under my skin - if you don’t know him, walk silently by. If you are a serious aviator and you never heard of Snort, it says more about your clueless than anything about him. If you have nothing to contribute…show some respect and don’t.
 
Dusty4315 said:
I don’t know why this gets under my skin - if you don’t know him, walk silently by. If you are a serious aviator and you never heard of Snort, it says more about your clueless than anything about him. If you have nothing to contribute…show some respect and don’t.
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Never heard of you either. ;)
 
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