Dad advice needed. Question 1

[SoonerAviator]

I should probably mention the point of the karate was never to solve a sort of fighting a bullying problem. We want both of our kids to be doing things that are athletic so that exercise is always a part of their life. My son tried lots of sports but nothing really stuck. the karate seems like a good idea because in addition to being healthy we also wanted confidence. He is like a duck on water with karate and oftentimes he goes up and actually teaches the class so it build some confidence as far as public speaking and having to carry himself in a manner where he is in somewhat of a leadership role at times and it's working very well. I agree 100% the karate class really isn't going to prepare him to fight and anyway. All they do is kick while wearing lots of pads. They don't teach the children how to throw punches or wrestle or anything that you might need an actual fight.

The administrator of the program I spoke to yesterday was supposed to call me first thing this morning it's 10:30 and I've heard nothing. She's about to get her ass ripped.

That's sort of been my problem with the "Karate" programs, as an outsider. They are a great activity to keep kids active, but it always appears that they go through the motions without any real focus on the real-world application. Hence my earlier suggestion that maybe wrestling or other program which shares some of the traits of Karate (like being highly technical), but with real physical contact using all of your strength so that he won't have any fear of using force on another kid. I'm not a big advocate of fighting, because outside of a few minor scuffles in elementary school, the only real fight I was ever in was a team brawl at a soccer match, lol. My parents always told me "you don't have our permission to start a fight, but you have our permission to end it without any repercussions".

The biggest thing, outside of your actions in bringing it to the schools attention, is to see if you can convince your son to hang around with a decent group of friends that will serve as protection (note: this isn't permission to join the Bloods/Crips ). I guarantee that if any of my friends was getting picked on unnecessarily while 1 or 2 of us were standing around them, the bully would have been verbally chastised (I'm generally quick-witted/silver-tongued) and if they still persisted in getting physical, it wouldn't have ended well for them.

 

[MAKG1]

I should probably mention the point of the karate was never to solve a sort of fighting a bullying problem. We want both of our kids to be doing things that are athletic so that exercise is always a part of their life. My son tried lots of sports but nothing really stuck. the karate seems like a good idea because in addition to being healthy we also wanted confidence. He is like a duck on water with karate and oftentimes he goes up and actually teaches the class so it build some confidence as far as public speaking and having to carry himself in a manner where he is in somewhat of a leadership role at times and it's working very well. I agree 100% the karate class really isn't going to prepare him to fight and anyway. All they do is kick while wearing lots of pads. They don't teach the children how to throw punches or wrestle or anything that you might need an actual fight.

The administrator of the program I spoke to yesterday was supposed to call me first thing this morning it's 10:30 and I've heard nothing. She's about to get her ass ripped.

You're doing it all right. School administrators do respond to ass rippings. BTDT. Be a pain in the ass. It's how you get things done in a bureaucracy; the squeaky wheel gets the grease. No, a private school isn't going to help. BTDT; there is just a whole lot less opportunity for the kid to find a good group with 10 kids of the same age rather than 100.

My kid went through something like that at about the same age. Except it was emotional abuse. A group of kids decided to give my son the silent treatment, to see how far they could take it -- and they took it much too far. We had a number of talks about him not needing "friends" like that, and how their opinions of him didn't matter. It ultimately resolved when he found another group to hang out with, in his case, in the theater. He's also gravitated to somewhat older kids very much on his own.

Kids that age are looking for acceptance, to a fault. It's important to find some place where they can. It need not be at school, but it's best if it is as that is where he spends the most time. Perhaps a club or an after school activity can help. Maybe the karate, if it's something he enjoys.

Living in a small town as I do now, there is a subset of kids that show up everywhere. There is always one theater kid in each class, for instance. In a larger suburban environment, like the one I grew up in, it may be different. But there are still sub-communities. I hung out with the band kids, and many of them participated in just about every music activity around town, even if the city had 140,000 people in it, and the county 5 million at the time.

From my own experience, standing up to a bully is vital, or else the bullying succeeds and gets reinforced. But it doesn't take much to break it. Violence may be necessary for such a young kid, but it is not the only tool.

 

[jesse]

Honestly I'm not sure what the right thing to do is anymore in this PC but not PC and mostly pretend PC world.

The first real fight I ever got into was when I was in 5th grade. I was walking to the bus stop and saw a much larger kid (8th grade) throwing kindergartners in the snow bank, over and over. The second they got up he tossed them face first back in again. They were all crying.

I ran up and made mistake #1. I verbally told him to knock that **** off. He did and a few seconds later out of nowhere I caught a right hook to the head and was on the ground seeing stars. I got back up (the world still spinning a bit) and walked away from the matter.

Once I got to school I had a huge black eye and was immediately sent to the principals office. I gave my side of the story and was sent home. My mom picked me up and told me that I was suspended and the other kid wasn't because of who knows why. Maybe they had connections with the school. Maybe he was a better liar then I was a truth teller. Not sure.

My dad wasn't around much but at some point he heard about this and sat down and talked to me. He said something like:

"son, i'm not disappointed that you were in a fight, or that you lost, i'm disappointed that you didn't leave a mark on that other kid for him to remember you by"
"The only person in this world that you can count to stand up for yourself is you. You are the only person you know you will always have on your side."
"A guy like that - he doesn't want a fight. He just wants to beat up on people who won't fight. Give him a fight, and he won't know what to do, it doesn't matter if you win or not, make damn sure you leave a bruise on him for him to remember you by."
"I don't want you starting fights. I want you ENDING them if they do start. I don't care if you end up losing. Just make sure you give that guy some pain."

That really stuck with me. It made sense to me as a kid. It doesn't matter if I'm going to lose just give them a bigger fight they they expected and make damn sure I leave a mark on them. That's a much easier goal.

The bully from above is in prison now.

I didn't get into a lot of fights growing up. We moved a lot. I switched schools in each grade at least once, sometimes twice. As a result I never really built up any friends and I was always the new kid that people wanted to pick on. This meant about two or three fights everytime I switched schools. I wasn't aggressive, nor was I mean, I just wanted to be left alone. If someone came up and pushed me, or punched me, or whatever, it didn't matter how big they were anymore, I responded with all the force I had with one goal "leave a mark on them that they can remember me by".

This attitude completely stopped people from picking on me. I'd switch schools, some scuffle would start, and it'd end in half a second once I returned fire. They always backed down.

At some point my mom started dating a guy who had two sons. They went to another school but were both incredibly talented wrestlers. Won state all the time. Competed on the national level. I'd spend much of my summers messing around wrestling with my step brothers. I knew there was no chance I could ever BEAT them...they were bigger and solid muscle...however I had one goal. I wanted to get to the point to where they absolutely could not pin me period. I didn't care about what the rules of wrestling were. I just wanted to know that someone who was bigger than me, and an incredibly talented wrestler, wouldn't be able to pin me. It took a summer or two of this before I had that down.

Wrestling is hard to beat when it comes to giving a kid a way to defend themselves.

Once I got into highschool the types of fights were by far more aggressive then my younger years. However I had my new tool. The way pretty much any of these idiots would start a fight would first be verbal abuse, followed by pushing you some. The moment someone pushed me was the moment they were going to find themselves on their ass before they knew what happened. I learned a lot from my step brothers about how to take someone to the ground, how to use your body as leverage once you had them there, etc. This stuff was never very violent. Push. Aggressor on their ass. Game over. None of these aggressors ever have any heart.

The last real "fight" I've been in was in 10th grade. We were in welding class and everyone was waiting in line to use a welding booth. I waited in line and eventually it was my turn. The moment I started welding, a bully came up behind me and told me to get the **** out he wants to use the booth. I responded "no" and went back to welding. A couple seconds later he hit me in the back of the head with some object and once again I was seeing stars.

This guy was a giant. A senior, 6'5" or so, and 275 lbs. I was 5'6" and 160 lbs.

I stumbled out of the booth trying to recover from the strike to the head, getting pushed around by this bully, I remember looking at the teacher and making eye contact. The teacher was the wrestling coach of the school. He gave me a nod. I picked up the biggest chunk of steel I saw and hit the guy in the knees. He fell to the ground with a spectacular thud. His face filled full of anger and he started to get up. At that point all the wrestling stuff I had learned from my step brothers came into play. It took a couple seconds before I had him in a head lock. I held him in that until he quit fighting and went unconscious. I then got back up and went back to welding. Never had a problem with that kid again. He's in prison now.

So I have no idea what you should tell a kid in this PC world. However that one talk my dad gave me (which many people would frown up) served me well and prevented school from beating my self confidence completely into the ground. I don't think I'd be who I am today had my dad not gave me that advice.

I would suggest you consider putting him into wrestling. It's pretty practical stuff and can end a fight quickly without injuries to either side.

 

[paflyer]

Not if you make it self defense. If the kids are this way, so are the dads.

Give them the chance to start it and you can finish it

Better idea is to force a sitdown with the school administrator and the bully's parent(s)... and your attorney, who will list the consequences for both groups if it continues.

 

[paflyer]

I would suggest you consider putting him into wrestling. It's pretty practical stuff and can end a fight quickly without injuries to either side.

Krav maga.

 

[tawood]

Better idea is to force a sitdown with the school administrator and the bully's parent(s)... and your attorney, who will list the consequences for both groups if it continues.

This is a good idea...Legal problems scare the crap out of school districts. We once had a problem where a 19 year old kept showing up at the high school to see my 15 year old daughter. A school administrator gave me a response of, "What would you like us to do about it?" I politely hung up, called a good friend who is a prominent attorney, who called them back on my behalf. Next, I got great pleasure in ignoring this administrator's non-stop phone calls for about 30 minutes, and when I did answer, I got a completely different attitude.

 

[Bill]

Mental note: Don't fight Jesse or you'll end up in jail.

 

[forsonsinc]

Go fly your cirrus and "slip" your anger away

 

[paflyer]

This is a good idea...Legal problems scare the crap out of school districts. We once had a problem where a 19 year old kept showing up at the high school to see my 15 year old daughter. A school administrator gave me a response of, "What would you like us to do about it?" I politely hung up, called a good friend who is a prominent attorney, who called them back on my behalf. Next, I got great pleasure in ignoring this administrator's non-stop phone calls for about 30 minutes, and when I did answer, I got a completely different attitude.

I would just show up with my shark, no advance notice.

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

She just flippin emailed me.
Get a backbone woman.....


Probably worth noting, last year there was a list and you had to get on the list to be in the program and there were a limited number of spots.
This year, everyone is welcome. No more list this year. ($400/ month got their wheels spinning) So a LOT more kids and the same number of adults "supervising"


Anyway, I'll share our email exchange:

From Her:
Good Morning,
I wanted to get back with you about the concerns that you brought to my attention yesterday involving the ESD program. I did speak with Ms. X and Mr. Y about these concerns last night. It is my understanding that all three of the other children have been spoken with and also discipline reports have been written. I want to assure you that we want your children to feel safe in ESD and when they are coming to Ms. X or Mr. Y and are voicing their concerns that they are being heard. I will be contacting the other children parents to set a parent meeting to discuss their children behavior and to set a plan in motion that everyone understands what goals we will be working toward that everyone feels safe and successful. If you have any other questions or concerns please feel free to call me or email. I am in the office usually until about 6:15.

My Response:
Please follow up with me and my wife (copied on this email) after the meeting.
I will be curious to hear the results.

After discussing our call with my wife yesterday, we were quite surprised that you didn't recall the incident with Mr. X offering my daughter money to keep a secret (that he accidentally cussed). I wasn't aware during our call but she mentioned that it was you to which she spoke about the incident and also included this incident in a survey she was asked to fill out about your program.

This seems like something one would remember as the further ramifications of saying "Here is money, don't tell" are downright frightening.
On the call with my wife, I believe you said you would follow up with Mr. X and I would think having followed up on that, you would remember the incident.

It makes me question whether this was investigated. So yes, please follow up with these parents and please speak to me after so I know if I need to pull my kids from your program due to lack of supervision.

Last year this program was amazing! This year its turning out to be very inadequately supervised babysitting.
I can spend my money on a higher quality product elsewhere.

Looking forward to your call.

 

[N747JB]

My youngest was a terribly shy kid in school, being overweight didn't help the situation. He had a kid that was picking on him, in the 7th grade I think, well his older brother took care of the situation pretty quickly. It totally embarrassed my youngest son, he was humiliated that his older brother was fighting his battle!! Fast forward until he is a senior in college, 6 foot 4 and about 250, nobody picks on him.

 

[wayne]

My parents always told me "you don't have our permission to start a fight, but you have our permission to end it without any repercussions".

One of cousins had kids in one of those schools with those damn "zero tolerence" rules. "Anyone in a fight receives suspension." Even if you were trying to walk away and the other person started beating on you. So their father told them that if someone started a fight that they should beat the living snot out them. If you're going to get suspended you might as well get your moneys worth. And then people would be much less likely willing to start a fight with you.

 

[PaulMKE]

You're a great dad. No one has this figured out. My thoughts:

Tell your son you love him and that you're proud of him no matter what. And that your wife and family loves him. Over and over.

Keep on the school and after care leadership. They should visibly and actively root out bullying.

Get him involved in activities where there is strong culture of support and growth. Soccer, swim team, baseball, STEM, scouts, lego league, anything outside of school where he can grow, make friends that support him, and develop good social skills.

Be honest with him. The world is a tough place. Not everyone is going to like us and vice versa. Love yourself first and deal with the haters. He needs to build up that resilience at some point. You can't give him your tools, but you can show him how your tools work and let him make his own.

My ask of the group would be do reflect on how we handle bullying right here on PoA.

 

[somorris]

My son is probably about your age, Brian. Both our kids went to public schools. Like others have said, I don't believe private school is the answer. Neither do I believe moving is the answer. Bullying in schools has been going on since the dawn of time and is likely to continue no matter all the current PC talk about bullying.

Jessie's suggestion is good, I think. We basically told our son not to start fights, but not to run from them either. If someone else started a fight, it was okay for him to finish it. The bigger lesson here is that your son needs to learn how to stand up for himself. If he doesn't learn this lesson, it will likely haunt him for the rest of his life. You might want to talk to him about similar situations you may have had growing up and how you handled them. He looks up to you and will respect what you tell him.

I would make a personal, face to face meeting with the person at school in charge. That will show much more concern on your part than calling or e-mailing back and forth. Also, keep in mind that other kids are probably being treated similarly and there may be other parents as concerned as you are. I wouldn't recommend lawyering up at this point. The principal needs to understand her responsibility for the safety of the kids under her charge. If she needs to get a lawn chair and sit and watch the kids, then so be it.

Good luck, and let us know how this works out.

 

[FormerHangie]

Honestly I'm not sure what the right thing to do is anymore in this PC but not PC and mostly pretend PC world.

The first real fight I ever got into was when I was in 5th grade. I was walking to the bus stop and saw a much larger kid (8th grade) throwing kindergartners in the snow bank, over and over. The second they got up he tossed them face first back in again. They were all crying.

I ran up and made mistake #1. I verbally told him to knock that **** off. He did and a few seconds later out of nowhere I caught a right hook to the head and was on the ground seeing stars. I got back up (the world still spinning a bit) and walked away from the matter.

Once I got to school I had a huge black eye and was immediately sent to the principals office. I gave my side of the story and was sent home. My mom picked me up and told me that I was suspended and the other kid wasn't because of who knows why. Maybe they had connections with the school. Maybe he was a better liar then I was a truth teller. Not sure.

My dad wasn't around much but at some point he heard about this and sat down and talked to me. He said something like:

"son, i'm not disappointed that you were in a fight, or that you lost, i'm disappointed that you didn't leave a mark on that other kid for him to remember you by"
"The only person in this world that you can count to stand up for yourself is you. You are the only person you know you will always have on your side."
"A guy like that - he doesn't want a fight. He just wants to beat up on people who won't fight. Give him a fight, and he won't know what to do, it doesn't matter if you win or not, make damn sure you leave a bruise on him for him to remember you by."
"I don't want you starting fights. I want you ENDING them if they do start. I don't care if you end up losing. Just make sure you give that guy some pain."

That really stuck with me. It made sense to me as a kid. It doesn't matter if I'm going to lose just give them a bigger fight they they expected and make damn sure I leave a mark on them. That's a much easier goal.

The bully from above is in prison now.

I didn't get into a lot of fights growing up. We moved a lot. I switched schools in each grade at least once, sometimes twice. As a result I never really built up any friends and I was always the new kid that people wanted to pick on. This meant about two or three fights everytime I switched schools. I wasn't aggressive, nor was I mean, I just wanted to be left alone. If someone came up and pushed me, or punched me, or whatever, it didn't matter how big they were anymore, I responded with all the force I had with one goal "leave a mark on them that they can remember me by".

This attitude completely stopped people from picking on me. I'd switch schools, some scuffle would start, and it'd end in half a second once I returned fire. They always backed down.

At some point my mom started dating a guy who had two sons. They went to another school but were both incredibly talented wrestlers. Won state all the time. Competed on the national level. I'd spend much of my summers messing around wrestling with my step brothers. I knew there was no chance I could ever BEAT them...they were bigger and solid muscle...however I had one goal. I wanted to get to the point to where they absolutely could not pin me period. I didn't care about what the rules of wrestling were. I just wanted to know that someone who was bigger than me, and an incredibly talented wrestler, wouldn't be able to pin me. It took a summer or two of this before I had that down.

Wrestling is hard to beat when it comes to giving a kid a way to defend themselves.

Once I got into highschool the types of fights were by far more aggressive then my younger years. However I had my new tool. The way pretty much any of these idiots would start a fight would first be verbal abuse, followed by pushing you some. The moment someone pushed me was the moment they were going to find themselves on their ass before they knew what happened. I learned a lot from my step brothers about how to take someone to the ground, how to use your body as leverage once you had them there, etc. This stuff was never very violent. Push. Aggressor on their ass. Game over. None of these aggressors ever have any heart.

The last real "fight" I've been in was in 10th grade. We were in welding class and everyone was waiting in line to use a welding booth. I waited in line and eventually it was my turn. The moment I started welding, a bully came up behind me and told me to get the **** out he wants to use the booth. I responded "no" and went back to welding. A couple seconds later he hit me in the back of the head with some object and once again I was seeing stars.

This guy was a giant. A senior, 6'5" or so, and 275 lbs. I was 5'6" and 160 lbs.

I stumbled out of the booth trying to recover from the strike to the head, getting pushed around by this bully, I remember looking at the teacher and making eye contact. The teacher was the wrestling coach of the school. He gave me a nod. I picked up the biggest chunk of steel I saw and hit the guy in the knees. He fell to the ground with a spectacular thud. His face filled full of anger and he started to get up. At that point all the wrestling stuff I had learned from my step brothers came into play. It took a couple seconds before I had him in a head lock. I held him in that until he quit fighting and went unconscious. I then got back up and went back to welding. Never had a problem with that kid again. He's in prison now.

So I have no idea what you should tell a kid in this PC world. However that one talk my dad gave me (which many people would frown up) served me well and prevented school from beating my self confidence completely into the ground. I don't think I'd be who I am today had my dad not gave me that advice.

I would suggest you consider putting him into wrestling. It's pretty practical stuff and can end a fight quickly without injuries to either side.

You have to use what you have, and stay away from what you don't have. When I was in 10th grade, I was about 5' 8" and 115 lbs. I wasn't going to fight anybody and win. In 7th grade P. E., we had a unit on wrestling, and at the end of it, the coach set up a wrestling tournament, and seeded us according to our ability. In the first round, I was paired against the kid who eventually went on to win our weight division. We got down on the mat, the whistle blew, and he flipped me over and pinned me, took maybe five seconds total. I concentrated on figuring out how to stay out of fights.

 

[ircphoenix]

She just flippin emailed me.
Get a backbone woman.....


Probably worth noting, last year there was a list and you had to get on the list to be in the program and there were a limited number of spots.
This year, everyone is welcome. No more list this year. ($400/ month got their wheels spinning) So a LOT more kids and the same number of adults "supervising"


Anyway, I'll share our email exchange:

From Her:
Good Morning,
I wanted to get back with you about the concerns that you brought to my attention yesterday involving the ESD program. I did speak with Ms. X and Mr. Y about these concerns last night. It is my understanding that all three of the other children have been spoken with and also discipline reports have been written. I want to assure you that we want your children to feel safe in ESD and when they are coming to Ms. X or Mr. Y and are voicing their concerns that they are being heard. I will be contacting the other children parents to set a parent meeting to discuss their children behavior and to set a plan in motion that everyone understands what goals we will be working toward that everyone feels safe and successful. If you have any other questions or concerns please feel free to call me or email. I am in the office usually until about 6:15.

My Response:
Please follow up with me and my wife (copied on this email) after the meeting.
I will be curious to hear the results.

After discussing our call with my wife yesterday, we were quite surprised that you didn't recall the incident with Mr. X offering my daughter money to keep a secret (that he accidentally cussed). I wasn't aware during our call but she mentioned that it was you to which she spoke about the incident and also included this incident in a survey she was asked to fill out about your program.

This seems like something one would remember as the further ramifications of saying "Here is money, don't tell" are downright frightening.
On the call with my wife, I believe you said you would follow up with Mr. X and I would think having followed up on that, you would remember the incident.

It makes me question whether this was investigated. So yes, please follow up with these parents and please speak to me after so I know if I need to pull my kids from your program due to lack of supervision.

Last year this program was amazing! This year its turning out to be very inadequately supervised babysitting.
I can spend my money on a higher quality product elsewhere.

Looking forward to your call.

Let's see if that results in "well I can't discuss with you what happens because of privacy rules..."

That happened when my girlfriend's son (12 at the time) had an issue with some bullying at school that was ongoing. He did what he was supposed to. He let the administrators know, he let us know, never retaliated, and the school did nothing, hiding behind "well we can't say if we looked into it or not due to privacy concerns."

So my girlfriend and I went down to the school for a meeting. She lost her mind and left the room. I stayed behind and very politely explained that according to state law, they were failing to address child abuse on their own campus after being made aware of it, and as mandated reporters, there could be serious consequences both for their failing to report it, and their failing to act on it. I also reminded them of the district's "zero tolerance" rules that they tried to use against gf's kid in the past. I also made it very clear that I would be reporting the incidents to local law enforcement if they failed to handle it administratively.

BTW, there was zero chance I was going to go to the cops for a school bullying issue. But you have to speak in language they understand to let them know you're not ignorant of the rules and law... and that you will absolutely use the same school policies they try to hide behind to defend your kid.

After that meeting the bully was immediately suspended. His parents were talked to. The kid and his parents were told that if he so much as looked in gf's kids direction, he'd be transferred to a different school. Then we had a talk with the kid that if another kid ever starts a fight, he damn well better get a couple good shots in.

The 9 year old has no issues. He has friends all over the place. And will check a fool, despite being the smallest kid in his grade.

Pretty sure the older one will be successful in life after dealing with being the awkward kid in school. The young one I'm worried about since he's having such an easy go of it now.

So my advice to you? Hold the school administration responsible. If they do something that is chicken ****, you call them on it. Also get your kid into something where he learns real physical contact. Krav, judo, and wrestling all sound like fun ideas. I think kids in general are afraid to stand up for themselves both because of stupid rules at school and because they aren't as physical as previous generations. They are afraid of getting hurt and that makes them timid during physical confrontations.

 

[Ted]

One other note regarding acceptance - when I was in school I found connected much better with adults than with other kids. This continued through college. Of course I had friends my own age, but a large number of the people who were the most helpful to me were folks who were older.

 

[jesse]

Mental note: Don't fight Jesse or you'll end up in jail.

Funny thing...about 10 years after this...I was interviewing candidates for a job. One of the guys I was interviewing grew up in the same town that the first bully lived in (the one who gave me a black eye for trying to defend kindergartners).

Anyways. I asked the guy if he knew Mr Bully #1 without giving any context. Basically I figured if he was friends with the guy then he's not the kind of guy I'd want to work with.

He responded "yeah, that guy was a dick, always beating up people half his size. I broke a skateboard over his head once for doing that."

Hired.

 

[Norman]

But the young man a 1911 and teach him how to use it. The bullying will stop. (Caution; SARCASM)

 

[Bill]

Norm, NSA. NSA, Norm....

 

[James331]

Hopefully he'll punch one and that will be that, my biggest concern would be if instead of defending himself he's just taking all this abuse and holding it inside.

Better for all invloved if a few punches are tossed and that puts a end to it.

 

[Norman]

Hopefully he'll punch one and that will be that, my biggest concern would be if instead of defending himself he's just taking all this abuse and holding it inside.

Better for all invloved if a few punches are tossed and that puts a end to it.

The problem with that is it's usually the kid who's defending himself that gets in trouble while the bully skates.

 

[gasfiltered]

I'm going to agree with a lot of people here on two counts. 1. Private school. The difference has been amazing. Like anything else, you have to interview them as much as they interview you. It's fairly easy to spot the Stepford schools. 2. Continue the martial arts, but make sure he's in a program with real sparring. My son was exactly like yours. He studied Tae Kwon Do under a grand Master who was personal friends with Bruce Lee and Chuck Norris, but he would never defend himself. It wasn't until he started wrestling that the bullying stopped. Being forced to fight showed him that he was capable. It came to a head when his main tormentor found him on a bad day and ended up with a torn rotator cuff and a face full of floor. Security cams proved my boy was defending himself and he never had a problem for the next two years. After that we went with private school mostly for academics and haven't looked back. Your instincts are right to keep reminding him that this is a short term problem and that the world is full of d-bags who don't rate his friendship.

 

[Everskyward]

Be honest with him. The world is a tough place. Not everyone is going to like us and vice versa. Love yourself first and deal with the haters. He needs to build up that resilience at some point. You can't give him your tools, but you can show him how your tools work and let him make his own.

This. I think one of the more valuable lesson that kids can learn is that they don't need the approval of bullies and others who fancy themselves as ringleaders. At best they are misguided; at worst, pathetic.

 

[eman1200]

.........and please speak to me after so I know if I need to pull my kids from your program due to lack of supervision.

Last year this program was amazing! This year its turning out to be very inadequately supervised babysitting.
I can spend my money on a higher quality product elsewhere.....

6er gettin' ready to drop his OWN BAN HAMMER LIKE A BOSS!!!!!!!

 

[somorris]

The problem with that is it's usually the kid who's defending himself that gets in trouble while the bully skates.

I would advise the Principal at the face to face meeting that I was going to tell my son to defend himself from the bully if the school did nothing to stop it, and if he did that, he had better not be disciplined or they would be hearing from me. The school needs to understand in no uncertain terms that they had better put a stop to the bullying.

 

[James331]

The problem with that is it's usually the kid who's defending himself that gets in trouble while the bully skates.

Whatever, he'll get over it and learn a few lessons about how "administration" and later government really works, ether way the pressing issue is he needs to learn to stand up for himself here and now, his ability to do that will make ripples much further down the line than getting in trouble at school will

 

[denverpilot]

Seems like one takeaway is that a lot of us pilots were bullied as kids.

Ha. I can't think of an adult male who doesn't have at least one bully story. There's probably a few, and they were probably big for their age and on the football team.

Standard story here too, was a skinny kid with glasses all throughout school. Most bullies could be stopped by embarrassing them with their own words -- they always start with taunts of course. Knowing how to make them look stupid by highlighting what they said often made the smarter ones go after other targets. The dumb ones, they'd just get angry.

Looking mildly crazy yourself, like what they said just made you snap, is also a fun technique. The hundred yard stare like you're about to kill them also works on some.

My HS bully also stopped when I had enough and used his face to test the strength of the concrete out front one afternoon. Same story as everyone. Decided to land a punch that'd knock him down and then fight dirty for about 30 seconds. No backing down after he dropped. He'd had enough chances to leave me alone. He was so shocked I fought back that day, he never landed a single hit on me. I dusted myself off and walked home. I have no idea what he told folks had happened and there were only two witnesses. Nowadays there would be all the PC suspensions and BS for both of us. Back then, nobody said a word if the kid who looked like they got the worst of it was a known ass-hat.

Last I heard he flirted with jail, never got any further in life than a rat-hole apartment, and was an alcoholic.

The dirty fighting techniques were all from my dad. He was short and small his whole life so he knew how to fight. Spent time dragging drunk sailors back to the ship with a nightstick and his brain as his only weapons also. So he knew, as @jesse put it, "how to end a fight" and showed me as a kid, and it came in handy a number of times. Pressure points and knowing where to hit, and anyone without training to keep fighting through that sort of pain, will drop. Add a little training on how to take them down, and it's over.

That latter part is why I like Judo better than Karate for teaching kids self defense. Both have their place, but knowing how to throw someone twice your weight by using their momentum is a more useful tool in street fighting than kicking them.

Karate teaches sweeps also of course, but that's a good way to end up needing a knee replaced in a street fight unless you're really good at it. Especially as you get older.

Most fist fights degenerate into grappling within seconds unless someone involved has a weapon.

And as someone pointed out, martial arts helps folks get over their training to never hit someone. If you need to hit, you need to know how to hit, and have practiced it on someone willing to be hit who also tries to move away from it.

 

[Ted]

The problem with that is it's usually the kid who's defending himself that gets in trouble while the bully skates.

Certainly my experience as well. That said, I was able to determine when a punishment was BS and didn't let it get to me.

Ha. I can't think of an adult male who doesn't have at least one bully story. There's probably a few, and they were probably big for their age and on the football team.

My point was more along the lines of some evidence that it DOES get better. The amount that individual kids deal with it depends.

 

[midcap]

I never was really bullied in school, it helped I was one of the biggest and strongest, having a short fuse also deterred people from messing with me. Given, that I was always there for my friends, if someone was being bullied I'd step in and make the bully wish they didn't mess with my friend.

It sounds like your son needs to find a group of kids that will have each other's back and look out for one another.

 

[mscard88]

Do like Cale Yarborough did in that famous Daytona 500 race, run into Bobby Allison's fist!

 

[SmashTime]

This isn't satire so go ahead and move along.

I'm a good dad.
That's the only thing I will truly claim to be good at.
Pilot? meh, employee? B+, Smart? average. Dad? I'm the best!

But I'm perplexed and could use tips from other dads that may have sound advice.
My son is sweet to a fault. Anything I give him, he splits in 2 and gives half to his sister.
I give him money for chores and he asks if we can give it to kids that don't have money.
He is very sensitive, approaches everyone with hopes of them being a new friend, and doesn't seem to have a hateful bone in his body.

Today he came home from school and some boys had been stealing his backpack and throwing it and making him chase it and he would go get it and they would take some of his other things and it went on and on until he had enough. He stood up to a kid and said "knock it off" The kid punched my son in the face. He's 9.

My son is really good at karate and I have told him if ever cornered, and you are out of options, do what you have to do I will never punish you for fighting as long as you don't start it. If you start it, you and me have a problem. He seems to understand that.

Truth is, he is never going to hit anyone though. He is a timid sweet little boy and as such, a natural target. The kids have picked up on this and we happen to live in a town full of red neck *******s that are raising ****ty kids. I swear my generation are the worst parents ever. I don't have many friends that are parents right now because I am fed up with hearing people ***** about their children like they are some kind of burden. "God I can't get them in bed fast enough. Mommy needs her wine". This attitude is rampant in my peer group and its tiring.

I don't want to be a helicopter parent but my job is to protect my kid.

I was also this shy timid little kid that got picked on and made fun of and beat on to the point that in high school, I checked out mentally and became a major loner, tried things I wish I hadn't, and hung out w/ the only crowd that would accept me which was not the best of crowds. The music was good though.

That was the solution 20 years ago. Nowadays, 12 year olds are hanging themselves. Read that again. 12 year olds. I am not really worried about that type of thing yet but in a world full of tough guys, how does a guy that prays every night that for one day everyone will just be nice to him get comfort? I told him tonight "You are young for such a brief period of time and it all goes away one day and you just have to get through this part" he started sobbing and saying "I just want to get past this part and have people be nice even if its just for a day"

I called the school and politely ripped them a new one for not noticing that this had happened. I made sure to note that this was the 3rd or 4th time something like this has happened and I haven't gone all "entitled overprotective parent " on them yet but this keeps happening and no one is looking.

Most of this happens in the extended school day program after school where some college interns are supposed to be watching the kids but are clearly not paying that close attention. In November one of these interns cussed and my daughter goes "OOOH you said a bad word" he said "If you promise not to tell, I will give you a dollar. And he did. He paid her a dollar not to tell. Think about that for a minute. My daughter is a tough smart little cookie. She came home right away and said "This isn't right, Mr. Bryant gave me a dollar not to share a secret" She is an ace. But what if she wasn't?

This is one of the best school systems in the state. One of the reasons we moved here. That and the crazy high property taxes seemed fun to pay.

Anyway, I am mad and I don't know how to proceed. Maybe I say suck it up and cut your chops but that doesn't feel right to me. What do ya do when your kid is a target because he is too nice? I can answer a million other dad questions, but this one is causing me to lose sleep.

Being a dad is pretty easy until its not.

I can take them out of the extended day program but that leads to Question 2 (thread coming)

Thanks in advance.

TLDR past the first paragraph.


Brian, you tell your boy that if he doesn't fight the bully (explain to him that he needs to hit him first) then he's getting paddled when he gets home.

Win lose or draw, this will result in respect for your son from his peers.

For those of you who dont agree with this method, fine.... Let the bullying continue.

This isn't a soft world we live in, its especially rough for kids who won't stand up for themselves. Teach these life lessons early and it won't be an issue.

 

[Norman]

There was a tragic example of bullying near me last fall. Seems the teenage girl had been cyber-bullied on Facebook and at school. When she couldn't take it any longer she stepped in front of a train while streaming it live on her phone. Absolutely senseless that someone would drive her to that point.

 

[mscard88]

Yes. Teenage years are hard and often cruel for those who aren't part of the popular class, probably more so for girls. I know I went through some of it with my daughter, but she had, and has, a good level head on her and could handle everything pretty well. Son went through some too, but sports helped with that, plus I ended up putting him in a private school his HS years, due to my daughter's experiences at the HS he would have attended. I can't imagine the pressure these kids feel now a days though with all the social media crap. Sad really.

 

[paflyer]

I never was really bullied in school, it helped I was one of the biggest and strongest, having a short fuse also deterred people from messing with me. Given, that I was always there for my friends, if someone was being bullied I'd step in and make the bully wish they didn't mess with my friend.

It sounds like your son needs to find a group of kids that will have each other's back and look out for one another.

Pedro offers you his protection.

 

[mscard88]

These guys!

 

[GlennAB1]

About fighting at school. He'll probably be expelled, even for defending himself, so fight that's not a good idea. Happened to my daughter when she was a Senior, girl cornered her in a restroom and started swinging. She was supposed to flee... you're only allowed to defend yourself if you have no way out and are about to be killed.

 

[kyleb]

About fighting at school. He'll probably be expelled, even for defending himself, so fight that's not a good idea.

That's the point where (if you want), you can take the school to the mat. It is their responsibility to prevent bullying. If it has been a documented problem and the school has not resolved it, the physical altercation is a direct result of them not fulfilling their end of the deal.

 

[Cooter]

No, a private school isn't going to help. BTDT; there is just a whole lot less opportunity for the kid to find a good group with 10 kids of the same age rather than 100.

For someone who so readily expects precise language from others, that is an exceptionally confident statement. Are you saying that you have an exhaustive knowledge of all private schools and the those who attend them, or were you simply making a general statement about your experience?

 

[Ted]

About fighting at school. He'll probably be expelled, even for defending himself, so fight that's not a good idea. Happened to my daughter when she was a Senior, girl cornered her in a restroom and started swinging. She was supposed to flee... you're only allowed to defend yourself if you have no way out and are about to be killed.

There's a difference between a senior in HS and a 9 year old in that regard. And I would take the school to court if they did that to my kid.

Worst I'd expect for a 9 year old is a suspension, which isn't a big deal.