Crosswind Takeoffs Landings

H

HPNFlyGirl

En-Route
Joined
Jun 9, 2005
Messages
2,722
Location
I live in a house.
Display Name
Display name:
iBrookieMonster
So todays lesson was a really valuable one. Crosswind takeoffs and landings. YIPPPEEEEEE!!!!! So now on landings how do I keep the plane on the centerline. I am really good on approach, but after I cross the centerline I am all over the place. How do I stop that? I know that the rudder keeps it aligned with the runway and alerions are used to correct for the drift....so where am I going wrong?

All in all a nice day for crosswind practice. :D

Oh yeah and I have the greatest instructor in the entire world.
 
Let me ask this first.
Are you "crabbing" in on final then going to the slip or are you slipping all the way down on final?
 
HPNFlyGirl said:
I am slipping down...full rudder opposite alerion.
Click to expand...

Keep the slip all the way until the mains touch down. Then you center the rudder and let the nose wheel touch. Get you wind correction in full too as this will help keep you straight. It takes a lot of practice to keep flying the plane until a full stop.

We've all done this. I used to go out and just do croswinds all lesson. It got to the point I could not land without a cross wind. Keep practicing
 
What he said :D

Who am I kidding, I side load like there's no tomorrow... kind of like japanese auto drifting, with less smoke...
 
HPNFlyGirl said:
I am slipping down...full rudder opposite alerion.
Click to expand...

There's either a descriptive problem here or a technique problem. Assuming a steady forward slip to landing is the goal you should have just enough rudder applied to hold the longitudinal axis of the aircraft aligned with the runway direction; you should use just enough aileron to keep the aircraft centered on the runway center line. If you have either max rudder or max aileron applied at any time you just ran out of control authority and the x-wind exceeds the capability of the aircraft.
 
What Ed said is so important, it bears repeating with some emplasis:

Ed Guthrie said:
There's either a descriptive problem here or a technique problem. Assuming a steady forward slip to landing is the goal you should have just enough rudder applied to hold the longitudinal axis of the aircraft aligned with the runway direction; you should use just enough aileron to keep the aircraft centered on the runway center line. If you have either max rudder or max aileron applied at any time you just ran out of control authority and the x-wind exceeds the capability of the aircraft.
Click to expand...
 
I had and sometimes still do have the same problem. I will hold the track perfect and just as I flair start drifting. The cause is I neutralize the controls instead of leaving the cross control inputs alone. I have to keep reminding myself to fly the plane all the way to the ground. You can't stop flying at the flair.
 
Dean said:
I had and sometimes still do have the same problem. I will hold the track perfect and just as I flair start drifting. The cause is I neutralize the controls instead of leaving the cross control inputs alone. I have to keep reminding myself to fly the plane all the way to the ground. You can't stop flying at the flair.
Click to expand...

As I rollout during landing I always have:
1.) Yoke all the way back to the stops.
2.) Full aileron into the wind.

For takeoff I always have:
1.) Full aileron into the wind.

If you have it in your head that your goal is to do that..You will get good at learning how to slowly transition towards and away from the full aileron and yoke all the way back.

Of course it's up to you how you want to land or takeoff. That is simply what I do. You may not want to do this in every airplane that you fly..But it is what I've done in every airplane I've flown so far...which are always light single engine land.
 
HPNFlyGirl said:
So todays lesson was a really valuable one. Crosswind takeoffs and landings. YIPPPEEEEEE!!!!! So now on landings how do I keep the plane on the centerline. I am really good on approach, but after I cross the centerline I am all over the place. How do I stop that? I know that the rudder keeps it aligned with the runway and alerions are used to correct for the drift....so where am I going wrong?

All in all a nice day for crosswind practice. :D

Oh yeah and I have the greatest instructor in the entire world.
Click to expand...

You aren't going wrong, you just haven't got the timing just right yet. First thing to remember, the wind does not come from the same place continuously. It typically osscilates thru a 15 to 25 degree arc, stronger at one end, lighter at the other, so you are constantly varying the aileron and rudder inputs between two base settings. Rudder keeps you aligned and bank stops the drift, just like you said. With some more practice you will learn to guage the little shifts, and then the change as you enter ground effect. It's just a practice thing. Just rememberwhen your foot hits the floor and you can't hold it aligned, you are very close to the max crosswind component of the plane for that runway and it might be better to find a suitable surface with better alignment to the wind. Thats usually between 25 and 35 kts in most small planes. You don't really have to worry about hitting a wing tip, you run out of rudder long before you get to that bank component, so if you have it pegged coming down short final, you can just keep that bank till you hit the runway and keep feeding aileron to hold that till it won't hold you up any longer. Where most new students "lose it" is when they try to level the wings for touch down so the don't hit the tip. Don't worry, won't happen if the rest of it is good, let that one wheel roll on and play that unicycle game as long as you can.
 
I'm glad to hear that you're slipping for crosswind landings. IME, its the easiest way to do them. Now I'm not saying they're easy......just easier.

Since I'm not a CFI, take the following as my own style, and feel free to ignore it.

I have found the best way to do this is to start applying rudder and aileron simultaneously until your drift stops and you are on the runway centerline. Here is where I'm a bit different (I think), but it works. To keep on the centerline, I make small corrections with the aileron, but I keep the rudder constant so as to keep aligned with the centerline of the runway. For bigger corrections, I've found it requires both aileron and rudder movements.

You mentioned difficulty after crossing the threshold (you said centerline, but I assume you meant threshold). After the threshold, I do the same thing, but I'm a bit more aggressive, since things happen much faster and the airplane is going much slower. My goal is to hear 3 distinct chirps during crosswind landings....one wheel, then the second, and then the nose. And of course, as mentioned already, as the plane slows down, I slowly roll in aileron appropriate to the crosswind condition on the ground until I have full aileron.

Maybe this helps. Maybe its a bunch of bad habits. It works for me tho.
 
Dean said:
You can't stop flying at the flair.
Click to expand...

What does style have to do with it??
Spell it with me now.
F-L-A-R-E.

flair/flare QUICKLY becoming a pet peeve.

"Any traffic in the flair please advise."


Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!
 
N2212R said:
What does style have to do with it??
Spell it with me now.
F-L-A-R-E.

flair/flare QUICKLY becoming a pet peeve.

"Any traffic in the flair please advise."


Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!
Click to expand...
I know, I caught that after I hit the submit post button. Please forgive me.:dunno: Am just a hick from MO.:D
 
HPNFlyGirl said:
Oh yeah and I have the greatest instructor in the entire world.
Click to expand...


Brook, Who is your new Instructor, where are you flying out of?
I am really pleased to hear you are back at it!!!!
Go girl.
KD
 
N2212R said:
What does style have to do with it??
Spell it with me now.
F-L-A-R-E.

flair/flare QUICKLY becoming a pet peeve.
Click to expand...
You and Bob Gardner (on the AOPA board) seem to be having a flare -up over the use of the word flair.
 
FLARE!!!!!!! I've suffered in silence. Thank you Ed (and Bob G.) for speaking out!! (Sorry Dean, no offense intended, it's not like I haven't made mistakes in before. I just had to speak out.)

Ever since I saw the King video clip on crosswinds, I've had John King's voice ringing in my ears every time I come down final in a crosswind -- "use JUSSST enough aileron to stay centered over the runway, use JUSSST enough rudder to keep the nose aligned with the centerline." Over and over and over again. Drives me nuts, like a song you can't get out of your head, but it sure has helped my xwind landings.
 
flyersfan31 said:
FLARE!!!!!!! I've suffered in silence. Thank you Ed (and Bob G.) for speaking out!! (Sorry Dean, no offense intended, it's not like I haven't made mistakes in before. I just had to speak out.)

Ever since I saw the King video clip on crosswinds, I've had John King's voice ringing in my ears every time I come down final in a crosswind -- "use JUSSST enough aileron to stay centered over the runway, use JUSSST enough rudder to keep the nose aligned with the centerline." Over and over and over again. Drives me nuts, like a song you can't get out of your head, but it sure has helped my xwind landings.
Click to expand...
I watched that sucker about a half dozen times during the L-O-N-G time it took me to figure out how to land. I really, really, didn't like that answer but it turned out to be the right one.
 
One item that should be mentioned is look down the runway as far as you can clearly see. This will help you judge wether you are drifting and how much you are drifting. As a CFI/CFII/MEI, I emphasize this very important element. It is the best way to see how high you are, and how much drift you are experiencing.
 
Last edited:
flyersfan31 said:
FLARE!!!!!!! I've suffered in silence.
Click to expand...

So, if one softly touches the mains with a soft squeak, scarf fluttering in the wind, does one flare with flair?

Sorry, couldn't resist.
 
flyifrvfr said:
One item that should be mentioned is look down the runway as far as you can clearly see. This will help you judge wether you are drifting and how much you are drifting. As a CFI/CFII/MEI, I emphasize this very important element. It is the best way to see how high you are, and hop much drift you are experiencing.
Click to expand...

With the landing airspeed approaching wing stall and the concomitantly nose high, lower straight-ahead visibilty, using peripheral vision or better yet, glacing quickly back & forth out the side window/ahead to see the exact distance of the approaching landing surface below the landing gear is best overall, for attaining the highest percentage of perfect TDs in all conditions. That's why so many GA ASIs are right over there beside a side window.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
With the landing airspeed approaching wing stall and the concomitantly nose high, lower straight-ahead visibilty, using peripheral vision or better yet, glacing quickly back & forth out the side window/ahead to see the exact distance of the approaching landing surface below the landing gear is best overall, for attaining the highest percentage of perfect TDs in all conditions. That's why so many GA ASIs are right over there beside a side window.
Click to expand...

Side window? How far are you crabbed over? I teach two different methods of dealing with crosswinds; the forward slip, and the crab to forward slip. But either method will require you to have the longitudinal axis aligned with the runway before touchdown. Failing to do so will cause the aircraft to land with sideloads which are not good! If you are looking out the side window at the time the aircraft should be heading in a straight line just before touchdown, then something is very wrong!
 
flyifrvfr said:
Side window? How far are you crabbed over?

If you are looking out the side window at the time the aircraft should be heading in a straight line just before touchdown, then something is very wrong!
Click to expand...

Nonsense.
Whether with no crab at all (straight line down the runway) or with max crab angle for X-wind, it doesn't matter, the runway is right under the pilot's shoulder for very valuable instants of viewing.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
Nonsense.
Whether with no crab at all (straight line down the runway) or with max crab angle for X-wind, it doesn't matter, the runway is right under the pilot's shoulder for very valuable instants of viewing.
Click to expand...

What are you doing? You take my quote out of context and then say "nonsense." Are you flying an aircraft that can be landed in a sideloaded fashion? If you are than accept my apologies, but all other aircraft are to be landed with its longitudinal axis aligned with the runway. It doesn't matter which method you use, the aircraft still must not be landed with sideload. Once the forward slip is initiated wether on final or just after kick-out, you should look ahead and well down the runway to identify any drift and judge aircraft height.

Once again, I apologize if you fly a B-52.
 
Last edited:
flyifrvfr said:
Side window? How far are you crabbed over? I teach two different methods of dealing with crosswinds; the forward slip, and the crab to forward slip. But either method will require you to have the longitudinal axis aligned with the runway before touchdown. Failing to do so will cause the aircraft to land with sideloads which are not good! If you are looking out the side window at the time the aircraft should be heading in a straight line just before touchdown, then something is very wrong!
Click to expand...

How much time do you have in an airplane with the wheel on the back?

IMO I have since day one used my peripheral vision while landing. What's the best way for me to see if I am drifting? Looking out the side of the airplane and watching myself go sideways on the runway. What's the best way to see where I'm at on the runway? Looking out the side and seeing my distance from the side of the runway

If you are in a taildragger. Good luck, you are going to be in a world of hurt looking straight ahead.

For that matter how tall are you?

I'm about 5'7" and I can *barely* see over the nose in most Cessna 172s. There is simply no way that I could properly flare by looking out the front. I'd be looking at sky.
 
When I was learning to land, my instructor constantly harped on the importance of using peripheral vision (and sideways glances) to check position in relation to the runway - both vertical and horizontal position. I tended to try to continue to see over the nose - not easy, at 5'5" tall - resulting in a flatter landing attitude.

To cure this, he would throw a folder in front of me on short-short final, blocking my view straight ahead (which would force me to use the side windows). It worked. I've developed a nice, nose-high/mains-first-and-only landing attitude and my transition to tailwheels was much easier than it would have been otherwise.
 
jangell said:
How much time do you have in an airplane with the wheel on the back?

IMO I have since day one used my peripheral vision while landing. What's the best way for me to see if I am drifting? Looking out the side of the airplane and watching myself go sideways on the runway. What's the best way to see where I'm at on the runway? Looking out the side and seeing my distance from the side of the runway

If you are in a taildragger. Good luck, you are going to be in a world of hurt looking straight ahead.

For that matter how tall are you?

I'm about 5'7" and I can *barely* see over the nose in most Cessna 172s. There is simply no way that I could properly flare by looking out the front. I'd be looking at sky.
Click to expand...

I have zero time in tail wheel aircraft. I am 6 feet tall and usually have my seat in its lowest position. I can see clear over the nose of a skyhawk, or Archer even while sitting low. Although I agree that because of the way a tail dragger sits naturally nose high you should use the side windows especially when landing or taxiing, in a tri-cycle gear airplane it just isn't necessary.
 
jangell said:
How much time do you have in an airplane with the wheel on the back?

IMO I have since day one used my peripheral vision while landing. What's the best way for me to see if I am drifting? Looking out the side of the airplane and watching myself go sideways on the runway. What's the best way to see where I'm at on the runway? Looking out the side and seeing my distance from the side of the runway

If you are in a taildragger. Good luck, you are going to be in a world of hurt looking straight ahead.

For that matter how tall are you?

I'm about 5'7" and I can *barely* see over the nose in most Cessna 172s. There is simply no way that I could properly flare by looking out the front. I'd be looking at sky.
Click to expand...

I also read the entire thread and not once prior to your post was a tail dragger mentioned. Is HPNGRL learning to fly tail draggers? If not, I don't see how using a technique for a tail dragger would help her in a tri-cycle gear airplane. I am assuming that she is in fact learning to fly in a tri-cycle gear airplane, because it is the most popular type of training aircraft to learn in today.
 
HPNFlyGirl said:
I am training in a 172.
Click to expand...

I am glad we got that straight now. You are not flying a taildragger, or a B-52. Once you have your crosswind corrections in place and you are in the flare look straight as far down the runway as you can clearly see. You will immediately be able to see if you are drifting from the centerline and you will have an easier time to judge your height above the runway.
 
flyifrvfr said:
What are you doing? You take my quote out of context and then say "nonsense." Are you flying an aircraft that can be landed in a sideloaded fashion? If you are than accept my apologies, but all other aircraft are to be landed with its longitudinal axis alligned with the runway. It doesn't matter which method you use, the aircraft still must not be landed with sideload. Once the forward slip is initiated wether on final or just after kick-out, you should look ahead and well down the runway to identify any drift and judge aircraft height.

Once again, I apologize if you fly a B-52.
Click to expand...

Actually your statement wasn't meant to be taken out of context as you feel it was but, just to isolate it from the part of your post that did make sense (the part about not landing airplanes with side load, which is good, and a point with which I've never taken exception). The other statement was isolated, because it specifically is the nonsensical part of your otherwise good post (the one about if you're looking out the side window during landing that something is terribly wrong). That statement makes no sense, whether in your original paragraph or when it is standing alone.

What I did say initially, as do others in this thread, was that the pilot should use the additional benefits of side viewing when landing, which is beneficial in almost ALL GA airplanes whether they are nose gear or conventional gear equipped, and regardless of the size of the pilot. Sometimes more and sometimes less, side window viewing is ALWAYS a valuable resource, which is exactly opposite from being "terribly wrong", as you say.
 
IMO Ralph Butcher can come across as rather arrogant, and I don't always read his articles, but this really helped me a couple years ago:


http://tinyurl.com/qrjr6

0412insights.jpg


I fly a taildragger as well as nosewheel airplanes. Even so, I can look over the windshield and see straight down the runway throughout all but the most nose-high flares (I'm 6'3"), but that doesn't mean I should, as Butcher points out.
 
Last edited:
Dave Krall CFII said:
Actually your statement wasn't meant to be taken out of context as you feel it was but, just to isolate it from the part of your post that did make sense (the part about not landing airplanes with side load, which is good, and a point with which I've never taken exception). The other statement was isolated, because it specifically is the nonsensical part of your otherwise good post (the one about if you're looking out the side window during landing that something is terribly wrong). That statement makes no sense, whether in your original paragraph or when it is standing alone.

What I did say initially, as do others in this thread, was that the pilot should use the additional benefits of side viewing when landing, which is beneficial in almost ALL GA airplanes whether they are nose gear or conventional gear equipped, and regardless of the size of the pilot. Sometimes more and sometimes less, side window viewing is ALWAYS a valuable resource, which is exactly opposite from being "terribly wrong", as you say.
Click to expand...

This will be my last post on this subject. I will say this though, there is more than one way to recognize drift and I know which one is right for me and works well with all of my students.
 
*cough* side slip.

flyifrvfr said:
I am glad we got that straight now. You are not flying a taildragger, or a B-52. Once you have your crosswind corrections in place and you are in the flare look straight as far down the runway as you can clearly see. You will immediately be able to see if you are drifting from the centerline and you will have an easier time to judge your height above the runway.
Click to expand...

While that works just fine for me at 6'4", I believe the other technique would work better for shorter pilots who may not be able to see the runway at all in the landing attitude of a 172. Looking at the top of the cowl (or the underside of the glareshield) never helped anyone land a plane.

It wasn't an attack, anyway... Why so defensive?
 
flyingcheesehead said:
*cough* side slip.



While that works just fine for me at 6'4", I believe the other technique would work better for shorter pilots who may not be able to see the runway at all in the landing attitude of a 172. Looking at the top of the cowl (or the underside of the glareshield) never helped anyone land a plane.

It wasn't an attack, anyway... Why so defensive?
Click to expand...

I do a better job of explainning things in person than I do in text. The drawing above points out best what I am describing. However, the lower edge of the windscreen is used to help after the flare is initiated. Before the flare is initiated, and during level off, one should look out the front down the runway as far as one can clearly see. Doing this will immediately show wether you are drifting or not, and will show how high you are. Once the flare is initiated, I agree it is hard to see over the nose, so one should look out the bottom corner of the windshield to detect drift as the drawing shows.

Maybe it is symantics here, you all say tamato, and I say **** you. :) Maybe the others feel the lower portion of the windscreen is the side window, I dont.

BTW, do something about that cough, and crosswind corrections are called forward slip, not side slip.
 
Last edited:
flyifrvfr said:
BTW, do something about that cough, and crosswind corrections are called forward slip, not side slip.
Click to expand...

Umm... a crosswind correction for purposes of aligning the fuselage with the flight path (and, in the case of landing, the runway centerline) while canceling drift is called a sideslip.

A forward slip has the fuselage yawed at an angle to the flight path.
 
Last edited:
Lots of good advice in this link so far. The only thing I have to add is to recognize that there is a transition as you decide toward the threshold. When you're half a mile out and achieve the holy grail of a stabilized approach you feel right on top of it. You've got just enough rudder to maintain directional control and just enough aerilon to cancel any drift.

Then, as you come over the threshold and descend below the tree line the wind shifts every two seconds and your stabilized approach gets unstabilized. The plane drifts, turns, and bucks up and down, all the while you're trying to hold it steady. It's at that point that you must assert yoursefl as captain of the ship and say to yourslef, "you will stay on the centerline." You must do whatever it takes to keep centered and straight. Students tend to want to hold the control inputs they had on final right into the flare. That won't work, and as you come over the end of the runway you are going to have to dance on the pedals and move the yoke aggressively to make the plane do what you want to do. For me, it was learning to be assertive with the controls that finally got me to tame the crosswinds. Let us know how it comes out!
 
jangell said:
I'm about 5'7" and I can *barely* see over the nose in most Cessna 172s. There is simply no way that I could properly flare by looking out the front. I'd be looking at sky.
Click to expand...

You might consider using a cushion for better visibility. I use both methods--I look out the front to align myself with the centerline, and use peripheral vision (or a quick glance) to aid in my overal orientation.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top