Crosswind Takeoffs Landings

[Dave Krall CFII]

I do a better job of explainning things in person than I do in text. The drawing above points out best what I am describing. However, the lower edge of the windscreen is used to help after the flare is initiated. Before the flare is initiated, and during level off, one should look out the front down the runway as far as one can clearly see. Doing this will immediately show wether you are drifting or not, and will show how high you are. Once the flare is initiated, I agree it is hard to see over the nose, so one should look out the bottom corner of the windshield to detect drift as the drawing shows.

Maybe it is symantics here, you all say tamato, and I say **** you. Maybe the others feel the lower portion of the windscreen is the side window, I dont.

BTW, do something about that cough, and crosswind corrections are called forward slip, not side slip.

Nope, side window right off the pilot's shoulder is not the wrap down of the windshield although it's headed in that direction as the PIC rotates field of vision from straight forward through ~90 degrees towards the PIC's shoulder. Not looking out the side window will eventually cause landing problems, sometimes severe, particularly when but not limited to, narrower runways. Looking out the side window is where one can see what exact corrections are needed.

 

[poadeleted20]

Umm... a crosswind correction for purposes of aligning the fuselage with the flight path (and, in the case of landing, the runway centerline) while canceling drift is called a sideslip. A forward slip has the fuselage yawed at an angle to the flight path.

Personally, I can never remember which is a forward slip and which is a side slip, probably because there is no aerodynamic difference and there's no importance in knowing it -- as said above, you just make the plane do what you want it to do, and it just doesn't matter whether you call it "side" or "forward" slip.

 

[flyifrvfr]

Nope, side window right off the pilot's shoulder is not the wrap down of the windshield although it's headed in that direction as the PIC rotates field of vision from straight forward through ~90 degrees towards the PIC's shoulder. Not looking out the side window will eventually cause landing problems, sometimes severe, particularly when but not limited to, narrower runways. Looking out the side window is where one can see what exact corrections are needed.

This is absolutely not true. I never, and I mean never look out the side window doring landing. The contrary is actually true. People tend to go where they are looking. If you look sideways instead of forward you have a larger chance of going sideways. Its a known fact that cannot be disputed. According to you, since I don't look out of the side window while landing, I will have landing problems. I spent many hours at an airport called Castle Marina. This runway was roughly 30' wide and not once did I have a landing problem. I must be the exception to the rule, or your rule is flawed. You can take your pick of which is true.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

This is absolutely not true. I never, and I mean never look out the side window doring landing. The contrary is actually true. People tend to go where they are looking. If you look sideways instead of forward you have a larger chance of going sideways. Its a known fact that cannot be disputed.

That might very well be an untrained person's tendency hence, the benefits of practicing eye-hand co-ordination.

According to you, since I don't look out of the side window while landing, I will have landing problems. I spent many hours at an airport called Castle Marina. This runway was roughly 30' wide and not once did I have a landing problem.

A margin of error in excess of 100% of the typical small plane main-gear stance-width on EACH side isn't really narrow, but it's getting there.

I must be the exception to the rule, or your rule is flawed. You can take your pick of which is true.

No thanks on those choices...

 

[flyifrvfr]

That might very well be an untrained person's tendency hence, the benefits of practicing eye-hand co-ordination.



A margin of error in excess of 100% of the typical small plane main-gear stance-width on EACH side isn't really narrow, but it's getting there.



No thanks on those choices...

A runway with a width of 30 feet isn't narrow huh! I admit, I am no bush pilot, but I know a large number of pilots who will disagree with you. Anyway good luck with what ever you are doing. I hope it works out for you.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Personally, I can never remember which is a forward slip and which is a side slip, probably because there is no aerodynamic difference and there's no importance in knowing it -- as said above, you just make the plane do what you want it to do, and it just doesn't matter whether you call it "side" or "forward" slip.

True, to a point. I'd hope a pilot knows what to do when the DPE asks them to demonstrate...

IV. AREA OF OPERATION: TAKEOFFS, LANDINGS, AND GO
AROUNDS
K. TASK: FORWARD SLIP TO A LANDING (ASEL and ASES)
REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-3; POH/AFM.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to forward slip to a
landing.
2. Considers the wind conditions, landing surface and obstructions, and
selects the most suitable touchdown point.
3. Establishes the slipping attitude at the point from which a landing
can be made using the recommended approach and landing
configuration and airspeed; adjusts pitch attitude and power as
required.
4. Maintains a ground track aligned with the runway center/landing path
and an airspeed, which results in minimum float during the roundout.
5. Makes smooth, timely, and correct control application during the
recovery from the slip, the roundout, and the touchdown.
6. Touches down smoothly at the approximate stalling speed, at or
within 400 feet (120 meters) beyond a specified point, with no side
drift, and with the airplane's longitudinal axis aligned with and over
the runway center/landing path.
7. Maintains crosswind correction and directional control throughout the
approach and landing sequence.
8. Completes the appropriate checklist.

 

[gismo]

Not looking out the side window will eventually cause landing problems, sometimes severe, particularly when but not limited to, narrower runways. Looking out the side window is where one can see what exact corrections are needed.

JOOC, if it's necessary to look out the side window at the runway in order to land well, how do you propose landing a low wing or biplane aircraft where the only thing you can see out the side window towards the runway is more airplane? I must be missing something here. I learned to fly in high winged Cessnas and almost never look out the side in any airplane while landing, yet somehow I occasionally manage to make a couple good landings.

Also, do you find it necessary to look out the side when driving a car to stay in your lane? Not so much margin there, yet looking forward seems to work out OK.

 

[jesse]

There is no right answer. There is no wrong answer.
Do whatever it takes to make the airplane do what you want. That's all that matters.

I'm not exactly sure where I look. But I do know that I don't look directly straight ahead as I cannot see a damn thing in most airplanes.

I probably do a combination of looking towards the left out the front window and side window. I'm not saying I look completely 90 degrees out the left window.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

JOOC, if it's necessary to look out the side window at the runway in order to land well, how do you propose landing a low wing or biplane aircraft where the only thing you can see out the side window towards the runway is more airplane? I must be missing something here. I learned to fly in high winged Cessnas and almost never look out the side in any airplane while landing, yet somehow I occasionally manage to make a couple good landings.

Also, do you find it necessary to look out the side when driving a car to stay in your lane? Not so much margin there, yet looking forward seems to work out OK.

Didn't say it was necessary to look out the side window to land well. If the landing surface is long enough and wide enough... there's plenty of time to just let it settle down whenever and virtually wherever it may. JOOC, the few times when you have looked out the side window when landing, what was the reason?

As runways and landing sites become narrower and shorter I can guarantee that a consistantly successful pilot will be using side vision more and more, the shorter and narrower the runway becomes. That's one reason high wings almost exclusively dominate those more demanding airstrips and the other types were painfully culled out.

Even when a low wing is obscuring lateral vision somewhat though, there's still a lot of valuable visual information about the surface available out the side windows, in the periphery below the leading edge of the low wing, that any pilot can use to their advantage. I certainly do also use peripheral vision (out the side windows) and occasional sidewards glances even when driving. In an analogous way to landings, the narrower the lanes and faster the speeds when driving, the more I use it.

 

[BudRiggs]

I'm not exactly sure where I look. But I do know that I don't look directly straight ahead as I cannot see a damn thing in most airplanes.

It's not necessary to see straight ahead to land successfully. The Spirit of St. Louis didn't even have a front window. Many taildraggers in 3-point attitude have zero forward visibility. Get a load of oil, or other opaque substance on the windshield and you can't see straight ahead but you can still land.

A forward slip will give you a good view of the landing area on approach, then you use peripheral vision to see any sideways drift after you straighten out for the landing.

It's true that looking straight ahead at the far end of the runway gives you the best altitude clues, but the same clues are available at an angle to the side, as in the pie in the sky diagram above. A technique I have used with selected advanced students was to spray the inside of the windshield with Lemon Pledge on the downwind leg. The effect is the same as having oil on the outside of the window and gives the student a taste of the real world when everything has gone to crap.

 

[spiderweb]

This whole thread is just cracking me up because I suspect that if we could *see* what people are talking about, we wouldn't be so "shocked." I use my peripheral vision to help aid my overall sense of height above the ground (to manage the flare). I would bet most people do this, perhaps without realizing it. For example, try landing on MSFS and see how much you miss that side view.

JOOC, if it's necessary to look out the side window at the runway in order to land well, how do you propose landing a low wing or biplane aircraft where the only thing you can see out the side window towards the runway is more airplane? I must be missing something here. I learned to fly in high winged Cessnas and almost never look out the side in any airplane while landing, yet somehow I occasionally manage to make a couple good landings.

Also, do you find it necessary to look out the side when driving a car to stay in your lane? Not so much margin there, yet looking forward seems to work out OK.

 

[psyfly]

Great thread! Thanks for starting this, flygirl. Are you confused yet?

A lot of good advice, but not too easy to figure out which is good for you.

Landings are wonderful to experience and often extremely difficult to explain.

My brief contribution (FWIW and no warranties).

1.) Grasshopper, a good landing is always a spiritual experience and flows naturally from becoming one with the spirit of the airplane.

2.) It comes together from doing some fundamental things right (these things that are not always easy to figure out), learning which are right for you, and then doing them over and over and over...

3.) One day, you will make one of those beautiful cross-wind touchdowns (actually will be 3; squeak, squeak, squeak, one wheel at a time) and someone will compliment you and ask you "How do you do that?" and you'll answer quite honestly "I have no idea..."

4.) Relax, listen to your instructor, and become one with the airplane and begin to simply think what you want the airplane to do...

I envy what you are now experiencing, some of the best memories of my flying are from just about there, frustration mixed with exhultation; Good flying.

 

[gismo]

Didn't say it was necessary to look out the side window to land well. If the landing surface is long enough and wide enough... there's plenty of time to just let it settle down whenever and virtually wherever it may. JOOC, the few times when you have looked out the side window when landing, what was the reason?

As runways and landing sites become narrower and shorter I can guarantee that a consistantly successful pilot will be using side vision more and more, the shorter and narrower the runway becomes. That's one reason high wings almost exclusively dominate those more demanding airstrips and the other types were painfully culled out.

Even when a low wing is obscuring lateral vision somewhat though, there's still a lot of valuable visual information about the surface available out the side windows, in the periphery below the leading edge of the low wing, that any pilot can use to their advantage. I certainly do also use peripheral vision (out the side windows) and occasional sidewards glances even when driving. In an analogous way to landings, the narrower the lanes and faster the speeds when driving, the more I use it.

OK, I thought you were postulating that it was necessary to look straight down at the runway out the side window. Using your peripheral vision to sense whatever you can through the windows (side or front) does have some benefit. Even when landing a biplane, I normally looked pretty much straight ahead and let my peripheral vision soak in what little could be seen and that was all from the side (of course there weren't any windows).

 

[bbchien]

I have an exercise that I use with PVT ASEL students: Very long final with a healthy crosswind. 70 mph indicated. with the nose aligned with rudder, add and subtract bank to move left and then right of the extended runday midline, and then back again. Adjust rudder always to keep nose parallel. After half a dozen of these the aileron (the "left-right" control) gets dissociated from the rudder: the nose-point control.

 

[AdamZ]

So Bruce you just have em line up way out hold the rudder and make all centerline corrections with the alilerons, until very very short final?

 

[midlifeflyer]

So Bruce you just have em line up way out hold the rudder and make all centerline corrections with the alilerons, until very very short final?

I don't think so. Sounds like a variation of the "dutch roll" coordination maneuver, not a crosswind landing technique.

If I understand Bruce correctly, the idea is to move left and right of the centerline while keeping the longitudinal axis of the airplane always aligned with the runway.

That is going to require =continual changes= in rudder to produce the effect you want, not "holding" it.

Like the "dutch roll" it is a way of practicing the independent use of use of rudder and aileron that good crosswind technique requires.

Sounds pretty cool.

 

[ejensen]

I don't think so. Sounds like a variation of the "dutch roll" coordination maneuver, not a crosswind landing technique.

If I understand Bruce correctly, the idea is to move left and right of the centerline while keeping the longitudinal axis of the airplane always aligned with the runway.

That is going to require =continual changes= in rudder to produce the effect you want, not "holding" it.

Like the "dutch roll" it is a way of practicing the independent use of use of rudder and aileron that good crosswind technique requires.

Sounds pretty cool.

One of the King videos shows an exercise where John flies down the runway slipping back and fortth. He touches briefly with the outside wheel and starts back to the other side. I've try it every once in awhile. Harder than it looks and it is cool.

 

[jesse]

I'm not even going to try to correct this...

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Keep at it Brooke!!

Have you ever just brought the plane down in the pre-landing control configuration and just flown low over the runway without landing? If it's a long runway, that seems to help some people better see how the cross controls work. Had a friend that did this a couple times with reduced power each time; next thing you know, a wheel touched down and from there, he completed the landing. Made a bid difference for him.

I had a very strong cross wind with gust one day and used this. Was completely prepared to go-around and planning on it, but thought I'd see how low I could get before running out of control authority. Before I got to max control authority, the right main touched and from there, completing the landing was a piece of cake: don't remember flaring or flairing, but rounded out just above the runway and put it done in one swell foop!!

Best,

Dave

 

[Chache]

I'm not even going to try to correct this...

No need to, Jesse...

I deleted it.

After seeing it posted, I thought to myself wait a minute ... "Is that correct?".......
Now, I'm just a confused, bewildered student pilot...trying to differentiate.

Going back to study the subject some more.

(Trolling not intended.)

Chache

 

[jesse]

No need to, Jesse...

I deleted it.

After seeing it posted, I thought to myself wait a minute ... "Is that correct?".......
Now, I'm just a confused, bewildered student pilot...trying to differentiate.

Going back to study the subject some more.

(Trolling not intended.)

Chache

It's all good.