Crosswind landing Technique--right after touchdown

Great thread! I happened to do a goofed crosswind landing on Saturday. Came in and the wind sock down on the field was a little straight down the runway, but there was a direct cross wind (maybe 10ks) above the field. Anyway, I came in crabbed and did not get it straightened out on touchdown and the downwind tire touched first.

So, I did'nt hear the normal ech ech but an eeeeeeeech and then it straightened out fine. But, I know the right tire screeched sideways a little. Everything looked fine when I got out. But, I am wondering how much stress was put on the gear and what to look for to be sure it is OK.
 
skidoo said:
Great thread! I happened to do a goofed crosswind landing on Saturday. Came in and the wind sock down on the field was a little straight down the runway, but there was a direct cross wind (maybe 10ks) above the field. Anyway, I came in crabbed and did not get it straightened out on touchdown and the downwind tire touched first.

So, I did'nt hear the normal ech ech but an eeeeeeeech and then it straightened out fine. But, I know the right tire screeched sideways a little. Everything looked fine when I got out. But, I am wondering how much stress was put on the gear and what to look for to be sure it is OK.
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I'm personally not a huge fan of maintaining a crab until shortly before touchdown and then trying to go into a last second slip. There just isn't time to figure it out like your experience suggested.

These days I tend to maintain a crab until short final and then I transition to a slip giving myself plenty of time to figure out the winds.
 
jesse said:
I'm personally not a huge fan of maintaining a crab until shortly before touchdown and then trying to go into a last second slip. There just isn't time to figure it out like your experience suggested.

These days I tend to maintain a crab until short final and then I transition to a slip giving myself plenty of time to figure out the winds.
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The advantage of waiting until almost ready to touch down is that you can use the inertia of the airplane to increase the yaw but if the wind isn't real strong there's no need for that beyond practicing it for when you need it.
 
gismo said:
The advantage of waiting until almost ready to touch down is that you can use the inertia of the airplane to increase the yaw but if the wind isn't real strong there's no need for that beyond practicing it for when you need it.
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True -- I became really good at this in trikes.

B) (Yeah, me thinking I was cool)

It doesn't work so well in the Chief, as I learned after dropping into habit after acquiring some comfort.

:eek:

(Too light, too much side surface area, too slow, not enough inertia).

I didn't ground-loop, but it sure felt like it wanted to!
 
dmccormack said:
True -- I became really good at this in trikes.

B) (Yeah, me thinking I was cool)

It doesn't work so well in the Chief, as I learned after dropping into habit after acquiring some comfort.

:eek:

(Too light, too much side surface area, too slow, not enough inertia
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I've used the technique in my Porterfield more than once. The difference (TD vs NG) is that A) The effect doesn't last as long, It's harder to do since you must get to zero sideslip at touchdown, and C) It does nothing to help with weathervaning once you're on the ground.
I didn't ground-loop, but it sure felt like it wanted to!
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As you've no doubt learned, taildraggers always "want to".:cornut:
 
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gismo said:
The advantage of waiting until almost ready to touch down is that you can use the inertia of the airplane to increase the yaw but if the wind isn't real strong there's no need for that beyond practicing it for when you need it.
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I just had a talk with my CFI/friend about this on the phone a couple hours ago!

What he said is pretty much what a lot of you have mentioned.. it's not exactly considered "textbook" to teach a crab-approach till short final, but if you're zero-time and totally neutral to the difficulty level involved, you might as well bite the bullet and get the crab / yaw-to-centerline approach covered.

It's kinda like landings, and how you can either fly to the numbers or do a "drop-in"-style landing like the schools like to do. Both have advantages/disadvantages, but I'm glad he's stuck with the "numbers" approach since the start - out of our first 25 landings I haven't bounced it once and have been ~50' of the mark. From what I understand, the "drop-in" style is safer but you're more likely to float and /or bounce.

Anyways back on topic, I've only encountered very slight crosswinds (not that it takes much to establish a crab in a 172) on final, but it actually seems much more natural to me personally, than worrying about correctly leading a slip to final!
 
EstorilM said:
It's kinda like landings, and how you can either fly to the numbers or do a "drop-in"-style landing like the schools like to do. Both have advantages/disadvantages, but I'm glad he's stuck with the "numbers" approach since the start - out of our first 25 landings I haven't bounced it once and have been ~50' of the mark. From what I understand, the "drop-in" style is safer but you're more likely to float and /or bounce.
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What is a numbers landing versus a drop in one?
 
jesse said:
What is a numbers landing versus a drop in one?
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Sorry, I was rather vague.. I really only know what he's shown me, but from what he told me the other day - many schools do it differently.

I realize anything I say will get the "well duh, that's how it's supposed to be" remark, so I'll ask for a clarification tomorrow. :cool2:

From what he's said, I gather that many schools have you keep power in and just "make the runway" with a realistic touchdown point a little further along - taking power out and "dropping it in" towards the end, rather than bringing power out earlier, accompanied by a quick/lower AOA before going to a more pronounced flare right on the numbers.

This is just one of those things that is impossible to explain but hopefully that made a little sense.
 
EstorilM said:
From what he's said, I gather that many schools have you keep power in and just "make the runway" with a realistic touchdown point a little further along - taking power out and "dropping it in" towards the end, rather than bringing power out earlier, accompanied by a quick/lower AOA before going to a more pronounced flare right on the numbers.

This is just one of those things that is impossible to explain but hopefully that made a little sense.
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Actually, it is very possible to explain, but requires fairly precise terminology that bother the explainer and listener understand.

I think you're mixing metaphors here, so maybe a step back can help...

There are only three techniques used to handle crosswinds:

  1. Crab (airplane's nose is at an angle relative to the centerline of the runway)
  2. Slip (wing on the side the wind is from is low, while rudder is used to maintain centerline)
  3. Ignore it (use some combination of control inputs and hope for the best)
You can also combine any or all three.

Most pilots use 1 then 2 right before touchdown (crab on final, then switch to a wing-low slip just before round out and touchdown), while tailwheel pilots must use 2 before touchdown as the results from a landing while crabbed in a tailwheel are not good for the airplane or for the heart rate of the occupants.

The Airplane Flying Handbook has a more complete discussion of these techniques. Its a free download available here: http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aircraft/airplane_handbook/
 
dmccormack said:
while tailwheel pilots must use 2 before touchdown as the results from a landing while crabbed in a tailwheel are not good for the airplane or for the heart rate of the occupants.
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Not necessarily. Not too many absolutes in this world. :D
 
dmccormack said:
Actually, it is very possible to explain, but requires fairly precise terminology that bother the explainer and listener understand.

I think you're mixing metaphors here, so maybe a step back can help...

There are only three techniques used to handle crosswinds:

  1. Crab (airplane's nose is at an angle relative to the centerline of the runway)
  2. Slip (wing on the side the wind is from is low, while rudder is used to maintain centerline)
  3. Ignore it (use some combination of control inputs and hope for the best)
You can also combine any or all three.

Most pilots use 1 then 2 right before touchdown (crab on final, then switch to a wing-low slip just before round out and touchdown), while tailwheel pilots must use 2 before touchdown as the results from a landing while crabbed in a tailwheel are not good for the airplane or for the heart rate of the occupants.

The Airplane Flying Handbook has a more complete discussion of these techniques. Its a free download available here: http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aircraft/airplane_handbook/
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Sorry I was off topic actually - earlier I was explaining how my CFI mentioned the slip method and the crab method for crosswind approaches, THEN I related it to his preference of landing techniques in general (which is what I was talking about in my previous post).

As far as crosswinds go, he (and I) prefer the crab - (although I'll admit that I don't have a feel for the rudder deflection yet). I feel it gives me a more reliable approach TO the runway which I feel is safer as a whole. The issues come into play on touchdown obviously, which is just a matter of skill/practice.
 
EstorilM said:
Sorry I was off topic actually - earlier I was explaining how my CFI mentioned the slip method and the crab method for crosswind approaches, THEN I related it to his preference of landing techniques in general (which is what I was talking about in my previous post).

As far as crosswinds go, he (and I) prefer the crab - (although I'll admit that I don't have a feel for the rudder deflection yet). I feel it gives me a more reliable approach TO the runway which I feel is safer as a whole. The issues come into play on touchdown obviously, which is just a matter of skill/practice.
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OK...

Then the crab all the way down final makes sense. Where it gets complicated is right before touchdown. Sure, you can land most nosewheel equipped trainers in a crab and the airplane will straighten out (after scrubbing rubber off the tire and putting the gear under load).

So at some point you have to remove drift (which is all a x-wind does).

Drift can be handled by dropping the upwind wing until the direction of travel maintains centerline. But the nose is now pointed towards the low wind. So you use rudder to straighten out the nose.

This is really the easiest way to handle most x-winds in these small airplanes -- wing down until drift stops, then push the rudder until the nose points down the centerline.

Sure, you can crab and then kick it out just before you touch down, but you'll shortchange yourself if you only can do it this way.
 
It really doesn't matter when you time it. In the end you do about the same thing which is a slip into the wind to eliminate drift and align the nose. My personal experience is that it's hard to teach someone to do that perfectly when they only have about a second to do it. It's much easier to have them slipping a little earlier so that they can get the feel figured out.
 
dmccormack said:
OK...

Then the crab all the way down final makes sense. Where it gets complicated is right before touchdown. Sure, you can land most nosewheel equipped trainers in a crab and the airplane will straighten out (after scrubbing rubber off the tire and putting the gear under load).
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Any speculation as to how often this happens on a light plane? % of times without damage? Any guess as to how hard or strong of a drift would it have to be to cause damage to a 182 main gear?

dmccormack said:
So at some point you have to remove drift (which is all a x-wind does).

Drift can be handled by dropping the upwind wing until the direction of travel maintains centerline. But the nose is now pointed towards the low wind. So you use rudder to straighten out the nose.

This is really the easiest way to handle most x-winds in these small airplanes -- wing down until drift stops, then push the rudder until the nose points down the centerline.

snip...
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I would think that the slip will increase the descent rate, so an increase of power would be necessary? What about a power off approach, would you approach with a little more airspeed so you can arrest the increased descent rate?
 
skidoo said:
I would think that the slip will increase the descent rate, so an increase of power would be necessary? What about a power off approach, would you approach with a little more airspeed so you can arrest the increased descent rate?
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I don't know of many (any) single engine piston planes in which you cannot manage a power-off slip at normal approach speed without adding power to "arrest" the descent rate. Whenever folks start talking about descent rate being too high, or needing power to "arrest" it, this has nothing do with anything that's required, and everything to do with individual skill and personal comfort level. Everyone's is different. It's just energy management. Many folks get nervous at anything steeper than a 3 degree airline-style approach.
 
skidoo said:
Any speculation as to how often this happens on a light plane? % of times without damage? Any guess as to how hard or strong of a drift would it have to be to cause damage to a 182 main gear?
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I don't know if anyone could answer that. Just pat 'er on the cowl and promise not to do it again.

I would think that the slip will increase the descent rate, so an increase of power would be necessary? What about a power off approach, would you approach with a little more airspeed so you can arrest the increased descent rate?
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Just go in steeper. Trade potential energy for the kinetic energy that you need.
 
skidoo said:
I would think that the slip will increase the descent rate, so an increase of power would be necessary? What about a power off approach, would you approach with a little more airspeed so you can arrest the increased descent rate?
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For a typical slip into a crosswind, that is not as necessary. Stopping the descent is not an issue.

Now, most of my hours have been in no-flaps airplanes (Cessna 120 and my current LSA taildragger) and have found that the airspeed indicator is likely to lie through it's teeth in a hard (controls against the stop) slip. If I recall correctly, you could get the indicated speed to nearly zero in a hard left wing down slip in the 120. So I tend to carry some extra forward pressure while slipping hard (the extra speed helps you come down faster when you are flying sideways anyhow). But that is slipping to kill altitude so the power would be off in this case.

In the end I typically use the "hope for the best" technique. Sometimes the aircraft is reusable afterwards.:wink2:
 
Trapper John said:
Just go in steeper. Trade potential energy for the kinetic energy that you need.
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You're already going in steeper power off in a slip than you would if flying a non-slipped, power-on approach. He was asking if you should add power or airspeed to a power-off, slipped approach. I say no, but then it comes down to skill and comfort level. Crosswind slip is aerodynmically the same as the altitude-losing slip. With the altitude-losing kind, it would defeat the purpose of the slip to increase airspeed...so that's why I say don't adjust your approach speed just because you are slipping. When you say "go in steeper", what do you mean? If you are already power-off and slipping, the only way to go in steeper is to slow down or slip harder. But I doubt that's what you're saying.
 
If you're maintaining a specific glide slope to the runway in a stabilized approach and you transition into a slip for the crosswind landing you will need to add power to maintain the same stabilized glide slope.
 
Hang on - we're crabbed and descending at some airspeed with some descent rate.

We begin the level off and commence the slip and -- oh -- 10' AGL.

While a slip would increase drag and therefore increase the descent rate, ground effect will offset this increase.

Besides, if you're calculating required descent rates at 5' AGL you're either really good or really bad.
 
dmccormack said:
Hang on - we're crabbed and descending at some airspeed with some descent rate.

We begin the level off and commence the slip and -- oh -- 10' AGL.

While a slip would increase drag and therefore increase the descent rate, ground effect will offset this increase.

Besides, if you're calculating required descent rates at 5' AGL you're either really good or really bad.
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If you do it that way. I'm going to be going into a slip at well over a hundred feet and adding power to maintain my same stabilized approach angle.
 
jesse said:
If you do it that way. I'm going to be going into a slip at well over a hundred feet and adding power to maintain my same stabilized approach angle.
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I was responding the the question "Doesn't the descent rate increase when you transition to a slip from a crab?"

I gave up trying to slip from that high -- when there's enough wind to impose x-wind technique, it's never the same at 100' AGL as it is at 10'

Of course I live in a hilly area where the terrain varies 100'-250' feet within a mile. In flatter areas wind behavior is more predictable.
 
dmccormack said:
I was responding the the question "Doesn't the descent rate increase when you transition to a slip from a crab?"

I gave up trying to slip from that high -- when there's enough wind to impose x-wind technique, it's never the same at 100' AGL as it is at 10'

Of course I live in a hilly area where the terrain varies 100'-250' feet within a mile. In flatter areas wind behavior is more predictable.
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It's never the same through about any altitude. Or any moment. It's a constant changing situation. In my mind getting yourself in that mindset and making corrections earlier on helps. It's much easier to teach.
 
jesse said:
If you do it that way. I'm going to be going into a slip at well over a hundred feet and adding power to maintain my same stabilized approach angle.
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dmccormack said:
I gave up trying to slip from that high -- when there's enough wind to impose x-wind technique, it's never the same at 100' AGL as it is at 10'

Of course I live in a hilly area where the terrain varies 100'-250' feet within a mile. In flatter areas wind behavior is more predictable.
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Since the title of the thread is "Crosswind Landing Technique", either way is correct. FWIW though, I usually used Jesse's method regardless of the terrain.
 
jesse said:
It's never the same through about any altitude. Or any moment. It's a constant changing situation. In my mind getting yourself in that mindset and making corrections earlier on helps. It's much easier to teach.
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Teaching, yes - the long slip down final gives the student plenty of time to see how it works.

Once you've got the slip thing down, you don't need long slips unless you like them. I typically slip from base to final and sometimes on down even in no wind because it's fun.

But faced with a challenging crosswind on a narrow runway, I'll crab until I get down below the tree and obstruction level and then transition in the new, usually different wind environment.

Teaching technique <> Operational technique
 
jesse said:
It really doesn't matter when you time it. In the end you do about the same thing which is a slip into the wind to eliminate drift and align the nose. My personal experience is that it's hard to teach someone to do that perfectly when they only have about a second to do it. It's much easier to have them slipping a little earlier so that they can get the feel figured out.
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My first instructor had a great way of cutting through the BS on this topic. (For MY head, anyway.)

"Do whatever it takes with the controls to stop the drift and point the nose of the aircraft down the centerline."

This, of course, means you end up in a slip, but your brain doesn't have to be consciously thinking "slip" to accomplish the task.

Then he worked me up to a day and chosen cross-wind runway where I ran out of rudder and I got to "practice" my go-arounds. ;)

This technique worked particularly well for me since I have a tendency to "over-think" things. He wanted me to "just do it". Had to stop thinking about the mechanics of a slip, and just push the pedals and bank the yoke to get the appropriate sight-picture out the window before touch-down, or you go-around and try it again.

Won't work for everyone at first, if you're still struggling with what control causes what reaction, but after you "see" it, it works for everyone. Stop the lateral motion with aileron, point the nose with the rudder pedals. A slip but you're not thinking about it. Just bank and point.

The first few you'll forget you're setting up a high-drag situation and plop them on. This will teach your brain that cross-controlled is draggy more effectively than thinking "cross-control is a slip which creates high drag".

Around that same time on non-gusty/crosswind days, he added "Level off and fly down the runway (in whatever landing configuration you like today), but don't let the aircraft touch down", for learning to control power and sink rate at the flare. Long runway. Lots of time to decide to pull the power off and make a full-stop, or push it up and go-around.

One-wheel takeoffs were later, but mostly just to annoy me that mine sucked and his were nice and smooth. LOL!

Now being an owner, I won't abuse my poor landing gear with that silliness. Ha.
 
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