Crosswind landing Technique--right after touchdown

jesse said:
The whole point of pushing the stick all the way forward is to stop yourself from getting your tail picked up causing you to nose over. Just look at the elevator position and visualize what the wind is doing. By shoving the stick forward you're removing much of the winds ability to lift the tail from behind.
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The only thing I could think of that would make that CFI's statement make sense is if winds were variable and gusty, in which case you could be going into a headwind and then get a gust from the tail. Still, highly unlikely.

OR, if there was a light tailwind that was slower than the speed the airplane was taxiing, in which case the relative wind would be a headwind and the elevator being down would be a bad thing... But you'd have to be taxiing pretty fast for this to cause you to nose over.

Other than those two possibilities, Jesse nailed it. I can't think of any others.

EDIT: This is why, when a CFI says something to me that makes no sense to me, I ask them "Why?" Either I learn something new that I hadn't considered, or the CFI learns that maybe it's an OWT. I'm a pain-in-the-ass student that way, but when all's said and done I think we generally come to a good conclusion.

But, I've been on the other side too - I used to tell my truck driving trainees that I would try to always explain WHY I was telling them to do something a particular way, and if they didn't understand why, to ask me. That way, if some schmuck at a truck stop told them to do something a different way, they could ask that schmuck why and make an intelligent decision as to the best course of action. If the schmuck can't come up with a "why" then their way probably isn't the right way. If they can come up with a "why" and it's better than mine, great! You learned something today (and call me and tell me about it).
 
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If you're flying a TW in winds that will pick the tail up and nose the airplane over -- the airplane's too light or the wind's too strong.

My habit, and what I learned from from experienced types: Elevator neutral unless stick full back (upon landing, strong headwind, etc).




Sorry -- we're not launching raids on Bougainville in '44.
 
zaitcev said:
And then what happened?
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And, then I asked around about it and have been told different things by different people... basicly the kinds of things that the posts after yours said....

Winds and conditions vary - neutral or full back normally and then forward if it's blowing like H***. But, franklly, if it's that windy I'm not out in the decathlon!
 
dmccormack said:
If you're flying a TW in winds that will pick the tail up and nose the airplane over -- the airplane's too light or the wind's too strong.

My habit, and what I learned from from experienced types: Elevator neutral unless stick full back (upon landing, strong headwind, etc).




Sorry -- we're not launching raids on Bougainville in '44.
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Considering how easy it is to place the stick in the proper position there is no reason not to. Not doing so with the justification that it isn't windy enough is silly..because some day it *JUST* might be windy enough. Or you might get a jet that blasts you from behind that you weren't aware of. etc.
 
Here'a a Federal Post on the matter, from H-8083-3 page 2-10:
 

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Tricycle gear airplanes are straight forward about it - it's the tailwheel neutral stick or forward stick that's being considered.

Tailwheels are fun........... engenders happy feet and continuous attention
 
jesse said:
Considering how easy it is to place the stick in the proper position there is no reason not to. Not doing so with the justification that it isn't windy enough is silly..because some day it *JUST* might be windy enough. Or you might get a jet that blasts you from behind that you weren't aware of. etc.
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So what, pray tell, is the "proper" position in a tailwheel airplane?

That's my point -- it's either full back or neutral, depending on the wind condition and vector.

While I've been cleared to Takeoff after a Jet departed, it's not my habit. That said, Full back or neutral still applies, even with Jets, Sirrocos, and Vanagons.
 
Just fold you arms, close you eyes and hope for the best until the motion stops.


:D
 
dmccormack said:
So what, pray tell, is the "proper" position in a tailwheel airplane?

That's my point -- it's either full back or neutral, depending on the wind condition and vector.

While I've been cleared to Takeoff after a Jet departed, it's not my habit. That said, Full back or neutral still applies, even with Jets, Sirrocos, and Vanagons.
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I put the stick in a corner unless the wind is directly ahead,abeam, or on the tail. Elevator neutral is the recommendation for a tricycle gear airplane in a tailwind, but I was taught stick forward for that with a tailwheel. The only situation where stick forward might lift the tail (in a tailwind) is when you apply a lot of power with the brakes on (e.g. runnup) or when the wheels are really dragging (e.g. taxiing through mud). In most if not all, taildraggers I've tried this in even going to full power on pavement won't raise the tail unless you're touching on the brakes but with many it's easy to lift the tail and float it above the ground with power and some braking.
 
gismo said:
Elevator neutral is the recommendation for a tricycle gear airplane in a tailwind, but I was taught stick forward for that with a tailwheel.
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Interesting - I was always taught the opposite - stick forward on the nose wheel, neutral on in the taildragger.

Elevator down on the trike is also consistent with what the FAA recommends in the AFH.
 
dmccormack said:
So what, pray tell, is the "proper" position in a tailwheel airplane?

That's my point -- it's either full back or neutral, depending on the wind condition and vector.

While I've been cleared to Takeoff after a Jet departed, it's not my habit. That said, Full back or neutral still applies, even with Jets, Sirrocos, and Vanagons.
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If the wind is from behind you, stick full forward. It prevents the wind from picking up your tail. It's a pretty simple concept.

Like Lance says you're not going to pick the tail up unless you throw on the coals and get on the brakes.

The Airplane Flying Handbook agrees with my statement(s).
 
Fearless Tower said:
Interesting - I was always taught the opposite - stick forward on the nose wheel, neutral on in the taildragger.

Elevator down on the trike is also consistent with what the FAA recommends in the AFH.
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I just knew I was gonna get that backwards. Yes in a tricycle it's forward in in a tailwind and neutral in a headwind. But most everything I've read, was taught, or experienced says that in a tailwheel the stick is either all the way forward (tailwind) or all the way back (headwind). The tail of an airplane with conventional gear is much easier to pick up than the tail of a tricycle gear airplane and having the stick forward should decrease that potential unless you figure the camber caused by the deflected elevator will generate lift with wind blowing from the rear (I don't think it could). It is true that neutral elevator will provide some downforce with a tailwind since the entire horizontal tailplane surface is angled when the plane is at rest but I believe that the downforce is greater with forward stick and if you're holding the stick in the center (do you know exactly where "center" is?) it's not hard to imagine a gust of wind forcing the elevator up and then lifting the tail and that's the reason I want to hold the stick forward. Halfway forward from center would likely be as effective but that still entails a risk of the elevator slamming against the stops in a big gust from the rear.

I suspect that the origin of the neutral elevator in a tailwind is either related to the (correct) concept of neutral in a headwind/tricycle and/or was born out of a concern that a student in a tailwheel airplane would forget to return to aft stick when adding lots of power.
 
jesse said:
If the wind is from behind you, stick full forward. It prevents the wind from picking up your tail. It's a pretty simple concept.

Like Lance says you're not going to pick the tail up unless you throw on the coals and get on the brakes.

The Airplane Flying Handbook agrees with my statement(s).
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Not really. Look at a TW airplane on the ground. If the elevator remains neutral, the wind will push against the top of the elevator surface.

Here's a random Happy Chief owner:

dave.jpg


What's going to happen if a sudden gust of wind blows from behind?

Now, if there's no one inside to keep the elevator from flapping around, the gust will lift the elevator and may get "underneath" and lift the tail -- maybe.

But if there is someone inside who keeps the elevator neutral, what will happen to the tail when that wind comes wooshing by?
 
jesse said:
Considering how easy it is to place the stick in the proper position there is no reason not to. Not doing so with the justification that it isn't windy enough is silly..because some day it *JUST* might be windy enough. Or you might get a jet that blasts you from behind that you weren't aware of. etc.
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That's interesting. :rolleyes2:

Frankly, when the tail wheel airplane owner experiences these conditions he or she will not be thinking about what was read in a book or what was posted on a forum or even what some CFI may have expounded. Instead, he or she will make the stick moments that will keep all three wheels on the ground. He or she will not have to wonder if they are "proper." They will know.

For the record, if my stick is not back, it is neutral.

But what do I know. My airplane is a pussycat. :D

Deb
 
N1347B said:
That's interesting. :rolleyes2:

Frankly, when the tail wheel airplane owner experiences these conditions he or she will not be thinking about what was read in a book or what was posted on a forum or even what some CFI may have expounded. Instead, he or she will make the stick moments that will keep all three wheels on the ground. He or she will not have to wonder if they are "proper." They will know.
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Actually one reason we are taught "proper" control position is because it's rather unlikely a pilot would react to the tail coming up when blown from the rear by pushing the stick forward unless that (positioning the stick for wind when taxiing) had been practiced.

For the record, if my stick is not back, it is neutral.

But what do I know. My airplane is a pussycat. :D

Deb
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LIke I (sorta) said, neutral should work about as well as forward WRT keeping the tail down in a gust from the rear but I also believe that if the control is already against a stop it's less likely to get yanked out of your hand and slammed into the stop.
 
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I guess nobody wants to read the federal advise on post 46. :( You CLICK on it, and when it comes up you click on it again to blow it up to readable.... It's silent on elevator position in a headwind.
 
I read it Bruce but I thought it only covered tricycle gear planes and I had the impression that this has gone over to tailwheel stick position discussion....

Anyway, thanks for posting the reference.
 
There is no good reason not to push it full stick forward with the tailwind - and it provides the best protection more so than neutral. That is why the AFH says to do it that way.
 
jesse said:
There is no good reason not to push it full stick forward with the tailwind - and it provides the best protection more so than neutral. That is why the AFH says to do it that way.
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Actually, there is -- tail wheel effectiveness. You want down pressure on that little wheel so it make contact and allows you to steer.
 
dmccormack said:
Actually, there is -- tail wheel effectiveness. You want down pressure on that little wheel so it make contact and allows you to steer.
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Maybe I'm confused, but if there's a tailwind, and you don't push the stick forward, the wind will try to lift the tail, which would reduce the effectiveness of the tailwheel steering. Right?
 
Trapper John said:
Maybe I'm confused, but if there's a tailwind, and you don't push the stick forward, the wind will try to lift the tail, which would reduce the effectiveness of the tailwheel steering. Right?
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Without repeating all I've said in previous threads -- If the elevator is neutral the wind will not lift the tail -- look at the picture posted above (post 57) and tell me how the wind will lift the tail with the airplane sitting at that angle?

Anyway, if the wind is strong enough to lift the tail, the yoke forward isn't going to make a difference.

I think it's important to inculcate habits that make sense. Stick back is very important. Stick forward? Window dressing.
 
dmccormack said:
Actually, there is -- tail wheel effectiveness. You want down pressure on that little wheel so it make contact and allows you to steer.
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That is not a factor - you still have PLENTY of authority. If it were a factor you'd be going way too damn fast.
 
jesse said:
There is no good reason not to push it full stick forward with the tailwind - and it provides the best protection more so than neutral. That is why the AFH says to do it that way.
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Lester has never read the AFH. :tongue:

Deb
 
jesse said:
If you have a tailwind that 15 mph won't be 15 mph.
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My point is simple -- back elevator pressure is good and necessary while tooling around on the ground.

In the rare excess tailwind, neutral (where the elevator falls when there's no pressure on way or the other) is sufficient and will help keep the tail down. That's not the same as "let the elevator flap in the breeze."

You still haven't responded to the photo I posted earlier -- how does wind from directly behind lift that tail?
 
dmccormack said:
You still haven't responded to the photo I posted earlier -- how does wind from directly behind lift that tail?
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Looking at that picture the elevator looks like it's easily 24.5 degrees down. Considering how 24.5 degrees down is as far down as the elevator can go on that aircraft I'd say that is hardly neutral elevator. That is about full forward.

If it is not full forward it's nearly there and pushing it a few more degrees is only going to help - not hurt.
 
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jesse said:
Looking at that picture the elevator looks like it's easily 24.5 degrees down. Considering how 24.5 degrees down is as far down as the elevator can go on that aircraft I'd say that is hardly neutral elevator. That is about full forward.
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LOL

You didn't answer the question.

Having said that, Dan, how much wind would it take to get aerodynamic lift over that surface? I am thinking it would actually take quite a bit.

I see what you are saying, but if you are saying that a neutral elevator position gives you the best tail down force in a tailwind, I would counter that elevator parallel to the ground would give you the best tail down force.

:potstirringsmileyhere:
 
Greg Bockelman said:
LOL

You didn't answer the question.

Having said that, Dan, how much wind would it take to get aerodynamic lift over that surface? I am thinking it would actually take quite a bit.

I see what you are saying, but if you are saying that a neutral elevator position gives you the best tail down force in a tailwind, I would counter that elevator parallel to the ground would give you the best tail down force.

:potstirringsmileyhere:
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Dan keeps saying neutral elevator is better. Then he says that the elevator in that picture is what he calls neutral elevator. Considering how the angle is about full down elevator, his question doesn't even make sense.

Elevator parallel to the ground will not give the best tail down force. It allows the wind to more easily get underneath the elevator which will then cause the horizontal stabilizer to lift to align it with the wind. Full forward on the stick will prevent the most wind from getting underneath the horizontal stabilizer.
 
dmccormack said:
In the rare excess tailwind, neutral (where the elevator falls when there's no pressure on way or the other) is sufficient and will help keep the tail down.
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jesse said:
Dan keeps saying neutral elevator is better. Then he says that the elevator in that picture is what he calls neutral elevator. Considering how the angle is about full down elevator, his question doesn't even make sense.
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I think what Dan is calling "neutral elevator" is different from what everyone else considers neutral. I would consider neutral as being parallel with the horizontal stab.
 
jesse said:
Dan keeps saying neutral elevator is better. Then he says that the elevator in that picture is what he calls neutral elevator. Considering how the angle is about full down elevator, his question doesn't even make sense.

Elevator parallel to the ground will not give the best tail down force. It allows the wind to more easily get underneath the elevator which will then cause the horizontal stabilizer to lift to align it with the wind. Full forward on the stick will prevent the most wind from getting underneath the horizontal stabilizer.
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My take on Dan's picture is that he was pointing out that the fixed horizontal stabilizer (and the elevator if aligned parallel to it) are tilted when the plane is sitting on the ground. I don't think he meant that picture to be an example of a "neutral" elevator.
 
Everskyward said:
I think what Dan is calling "neutral elevator" is different from what everyone else considers neutral. I would consider neutral as being parallel with the horizontal stab.
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"Neutral" elevator is neither forward (pushing) or up (pulling).

Neutral is where the elevator lays when the yoke is left alone. This requires no pushing action.

The amount of downward deflection with full-push-on-the-yoke is surprisingly small.
 
dmccormack said:
"Neutral" elevator is neither forward (pushing) or up (pulling).

Neutral is where the elevator lays when the yoke is left alone. This requires no pushing action.

The amount of downward deflection with full-push-on-the-yoke is surprisingly small.
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In my taildragger which has a bungee trim system, "neutral" by your definition depends on the trim setting. With full nose up trim the elevator lays nearly all the way up and with centered or nose down trim the elevator lays fully down. The "standard" definition of neutral elevator on an airplane with a fixed horizontal stabilizer (vs a stabilitor), has the trailing edge of the elevator in line with the chord line of the fixed surface.
 
gismo said:
In my taildragger which has a bungee trim system, "neutral" by your definition depends on the trim setting. With full nose up trim the elevator lays nearly all the way up and with centered or nose down trim the elevator lays fully down. The "standard" definition of neutral elevator on an airplane with a fixed horizontal stabilizer (vs a stabilitor), has the trailing edge of the elevator in line with the chord line of the fixed surface.
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Neutral can also be relative to the pilot's control input -- in most airplanes this will have the elevator in-line or slightly down (unsupported) position.

Either way there's no advantage to pushing forward on the yoke, even with a tailwind. A slightly too-vigorous blast from the prop and the tail will get light with forward pressure on the yoke.

This can be helpful getting out of tight spots, relieving the pressure on the tailwheel when stuck in grass or even some mud.

But rolling around worrying about when to push forward is essentially a useless exercise in a TW aircraft.
 
I'm glad my post was so straightforward and uncontroversial.
 
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