Crossing Mid-Field at Pattern Altitude

Fearless Tower

Fearless Tower

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Fearless Tower
Why do some pilots think it is okay to cross at pattern altitude at mid-field and then turn left to join the downwind when there are already other aircraft in the pattern?

Had this happen twice within the last two days, first at Sedona and then again at Shelby Co, AL.

I was even announcing my position on the CTAFand they still did it.
 
Were they a conflict? Did they cut in front of someone on downwind?


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Fearless Tower said:
Why do some pilots think it is okay to cross at pattern altitude at mid-field and then turn left to join the downwind when there are already other aircraft in the pattern?
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It's better to run into other airplanes from the 45 to downwind? :)
 
1) Because they can at an uncontrolled field.
2) Because its better than crossing above patter altitude and descending into the pattern.
3) Because its an uncontrolled field.
and
4) Because its an uncontrolled field.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Why do some pilots think it is okay to cross at pattern altitude at mid-field and then turn left to join the downwind when there are already other aircraft in the pattern?

Had this happen twice within the last two days, first at Sedona and then again at Shelby Co, AL.

I was even announcing my position on the CTAFand they still did it.
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might have been me (it wasn't) but I nearly always enter the pattern that way from the off-side. It minimizes maneuvering in the vicinity of the airport and maximizes my and your safety. You're welcome.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Why do some pilots think it is okay to cross at pattern altitude at mid-field and then turn left to join the downwind when there are already other aircraft in the pattern?

Had this happen twice within the last two days, first at Sedona and then again at Shelby Co, AL.

I was even announcing my position on the CTAFand they still did it.
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Oh yeah that'll keep everything just the way you like it.:rolleyes::lol:
 
I would do the same... Pattern is on north side of E/W runway and if I am approaching from south I cross mid field at pattern alt then turn downwind.
 
EvilEagle said:
Were they a conflict? Did they cut in front of someone on downwind?


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Yes. I was on the 45 for the left downwind (which I had previously announced) about to turn when here comes Mr Bo crossing crossing the field right in front of me. He was oblivious to where I was and close enough that I had to make a left 360 to avoid a collision.
 
DesertNomad said:
I would do the same... Pattern is on north side of E/W runway and if I am approaching from south I cross mid field at pattern alt then turn downwind.
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Do you do it cutting in front of other traffic already turning downwind?
 
That's SOP in Canada ...

TrafficPattern.gif
 
Pilawt said:
That's SOP in Canada ...

TrafficPattern.gif
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Last I checked, I wasn't flying in Canada.

It's one thing when there is no traffic in the pattern, but when you cut into the already established flow...that is just asking for trouble.

Bonanza dude never even saw me.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Last I checked, I wasn't flying in Canada.

It's one thing when there is no traffic in the pattern, but when you cut into the already established flow...that is just asking for trouble.

Bonanza dude never even saw me.
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You saw him, the system worked.
 
Well I for one don't fly thru pattern altitude at mid field to enter the downwind. I will go 500 ft above pattern altitude, clear the pattern, then a tight descending right turn to enter the 45. I'm always giving way to those already in the pattern as well.

Even the overhead should be flown 500 ft above pattern altitude to avoid conflict with those in the pattern. It shouldn't be used to cut in front of someone on downwind either.

Having said all that, I'm really laid back when it comes to traffic etiquette. I just keep my head on a swivel and treat everyone as a potential threat. I've had so many close calls with aircraft in the pattern, I just accept it as an occupational hazard.
 
What McFly said.

Seems to be something in the pilot psyche, some maverick streak, that will seek out any way to avoid doing what is recommended. "It's not regulatory" is a common refrain. "You can't tell me what to do!" is the obvious message being sent.

Good news is the pilots following procedure are aware of the mavericks and looking out for them.

Bad news is the accidents that continue to occur that could have been avoided.

Small point - quite some time ago the FAA reclassified an airport with no control tower from "uncontrolled" to "non-towered". Not a big deal, but probably of note to flight instructors or others who wish to show professionalism by using preferred terminology.
 
The airport I trained at you were kinda confined to flying midfield at TPA. Just the way it was. Besides, if you have someone 8 miles away on the "far" side of the pattern and someone 9 miles away for a 45, who was really there first? Just take it in stride and remember most people are bad pilots and you'd rather let him go first so you can watch him and it isn't a problem.
 
Fearless Tower said:
It's one thing when there is no traffic in the pattern, but when you cut into the already established flow...that is just asking for trouble.
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Man it just never occurred to me that not cutting someone off was even an option when entering at mid-field. I've always been head down and hoping for the best! :lol:
 
Velocity173 said:
Well I for one don't fly thru pattern altitude at mid field to enter the downwind. I will go 500 ft above pattern altitude, clear the pattern, then a tight descending right turn to enter the 45. I'm always giving way to those already in the pattern as well.

Even the overhead should be flown 500 ft above pattern altitude to avoid conflict with those in the pattern. It shouldn't be used to cut in front of someone on downwind either.

Having said all that, I'm really laid back when it comes to traffic etiquette. I just keep my head on a swivel and treat everyone as a potential threat. I've had so many close calls with aircraft in the pattern, I just accept it as an occupational hazard.
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so your position is that a tight descending turn in the vicinity of an airport is a better way to spot and avoid traffic than crossing over mid-field at the same altitude as the traffic:rolleyes:
 
I've never understood the brouhaha about this issue. Even entering on the 45 you might "cut in front" of someone already in the pattern. He should have been announcing and working it out with those in or entering the pattern, but the technique itself is nothing new nor nothing out of the ordinary.
 
JHW said:
so your position is that a tight descending turn in the vicinity of an airport is a better way to spot and avoid traffic than crossing over mid-field at the same altitude as the traffic:rolleyes:
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Yes. My method is actually right out of a AOPA recommended pattern entry from the opposite side. Although they recommend 1,000 ft above pattern.

You're not spotting traffic by passing midfield at pattern altitude. You're outright forcing yourself into a pattern. You've got homebuilt aircraft these days that can be a traffic pattern altitude almost over the runway. Just ask Jay. Now you've got someone passing over midfield mucking things up for guys departing or doing a go around.

Also, if a pilot is adhering to a AIM recommended 1/2-1 mile downwind, my 2 mile descending turn won't be a fact for them. It also allows me to listen to traffic and adjust my turn to sequence myself in without affecting others in the pattern. If it doesn't look good, I do another circle, remaining outside the pattern.

Today, I did a straight in. No traffic no problem. Like I said though, I couldn't care less how someone enters.
 
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Velocity173 said:
Yes. My method is actually right out of a AOPA recommended pattern entry from the opposite side.

You're not spotting traffic by passing midfield at pattern altitude. You're outright forcing yourself into a pattern. You've got homebuilt aircraft these days that can be a traffic pattern altitude almost over the runway. Just ask Jay. Now you've got someone passing over midfield mucking things up for guys departing or doing a go around.

Also, if a pilot is adhering to a AIM recommended 1/2-1 mile downwind, my 2 mile descending turn won't be a fact for them. It also allows me to listen to traffic and adjust my turn to sequence myself in without affecting others in the pattern. If it doesn't look good, I do another circle, remaining outside the pattern.

yes it's annoying when people want to do a lot of unneeded maneuvering near an airport but most of us are watching while you're doing all thay turninig and descending out there and we'll see and avoid you
Today, I did a straight in. No traffic no problem. Like I said though, I couldn't care less how someone enters.
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You seem like you're still confused. You imply that your straight-in was something out of the ordinary and suitable only to no-traffic situations. Straight-in's are commonplace and easy to mesh with traffic like any other entry.

no one is forcing their way into anywhere based on their direction of entry. By the same token, someone who wants to shoulder-in (or does so accidentally) can make that mistake from any direction.
 
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JHW said:
You seem like you're still confused. You imply that your straight-in was something out of the ordinary and suitable only to no-traffic situations. Straight-in's are commonplace and easy to mesh with traffic like any other entry.
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No not confused. If aircraft were in the pattern I still would have done the straight in. I just didn't affect anyone's pattern today because no one was in the pattern.
 
Velocity173 said:
No not confused. If aircraft were in the pattern I still would have done the straight in. I just didn't affect anyone's pattern today because no one was in the pattern.
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why would it affect anyone else regardless ?
 
JHW said:
why would it affect anyone else regardless ?
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If they have to extend downwind to follow me, I'd say that affected their normal pattern.
 
Ive entered in several ways, but IMO enter the pattern so you dont cause any traffic conflictions, and try to be as vigil for other aircraft in the pattern as you can.
 
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Velocity173 said:
If they have to extend downwind to follow me, I'd say that affected their normal pattern.
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I guess, if your "normal pattern" is defined as always turning base over the same pond. But I expect that most people expect to be courteous and asjust thate spacing in the pattern for others whether then be on final, going slowly on base, or whatever.

In much the same way, I personally won't overfly a field to just to turn around and come back to it, introducing more time esposure to traffic and lessening my ability to spot others because I'm too high. However, I understand that some people do that sort of thing, i expect it and watch for them and avoid them, and I don't come on the internet and start posts to complain about them.
 
I don't get why you would find the airport, visually assess all that is going on in the pattern and then turn your back to it?!?!? The only time I enter on 45 to left downwind is when I'm coming from that direction anyway.

I have however stopped doing the midfield crosswind, and now fly over the numbers for my crosswind.
 
Its done quite often. There is a contingent of instructors that think it shouldn't be done and that is how they are teaching a contingent of pilots. The FAA really should clear this up once and for all (Im in favor of making explicitly legal, and Im not the only one). Its a great way to enter the pattern. Fly directly over the field, turn left and enter a downwind. See and avoid for sure.
 
Pilawt said:
That's SOP in Canada ...
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Correction, "That's SOP in Canada only at airports where two-way radio communications are mandatory and where other airplanes can be entering on a 45° to downwind." Check it out.

dtuuri
 
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EdFred said:
I have however stopped doing the midfield crosswind, and now fly over the numbers for my crosswind.
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That's my typical "opposite side entry" also. I fly a crosswind at the numbers or beyond, not at midfield. What's it cost? 15 seconds?

And it's less likely to create a conflict as I have far less chance of someone approaching from my right. Just have to keep an eye on the runway for departing traffic.
 
coloradobluesky said:
Its done quite often. There is a contingent of instructors that think it shouldn't be done and that is how they are teaching a contingent of pilots. The FAA really should clear this up once and for all (Im in favor of making explicitly legal, and Im not the only one). Its a great way to enter the pattern. Fly directly over the field, turn left and enter a downwind. See and avoid for sure.
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nah, you should never ask the FAA to explicitly define anything. Look at the dog's breakfast they made of "known icing" when pressed for a clearer definition.
 
JHW said:
I guess, if your "normal pattern" is defined as always turning base over the same pond. But I expect that most people expect to be courteous and asjust thate spacing in the pattern for others whether then be on final, going slowly on base, or whatever.

In much the same way, I personally won't overfly a field to just to turn around and come back to it, introducing more time esposure to traffic and lessening my ability to spot others because I'm too high. However, I understand that some people do that sort of thing, i expect it and watch for them and avoid them, and I don't come on the internet and start posts to complain about them.
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:dunno: I'm at pattern altitude prior to entering the 45. Therefore I can spot anyone already in the pattern. Also, i can spot traffic while flying overhead just as easily as at altitude. Finally, it's the recomended procedure as indicated in the FAA & AOPA references above. Complain to them.
 
I can be at pattern altitude by the time I reach the opposite numbers on a 5000' strip, so crosswind over the numbers doesn't make any sense to me.

I thought that's what mid field crossovers were for. To avoid arriving and departing traffic.

If you cut in front of someone, well, then you're just a butthead. :lol:
 
Was it the way he entered the pattern ,or that he was a Bo driver?
 
FastEddieB said:
I'm not quite that cynical, but probably a good mindset for staying alive!
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Im not really either, just a bit of hyperbole. Its like when you learn to drive your mom is always chirping "Its not you Im worried about its the other idiots (drivers) on the road." Well to the other "idiots" I'm just an idiot too.
 
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