Cross wind take off

[dennyleeb]

Crosswind takeoffs

I have seen crosswind landings talked about to no end. What rules do you all go by? (same wind speeds as landing?)

 

[EugeneR]

Re: Crosswind takeoffs

I have seen crosswind landings talked about to no end. What rules do you all go by? (same wind speeds as landing?)

Full controls deflection into the wind before starting take-off roll, then gradually reducing the inputs if needed. After takeoff, maintain slip for several seconds, then gear up, transition into a crab, and that's pretty much it.

Easier than x-wind landing, for sure.

 

[flyingron]

Re: Crosswind takeoffs

Full controls deflection into the wind before starting take-off roll, then gradually reducing the inputs if needed. After takeoff, maintain slip for several seconds, then gear up, transition into a crab, and that's pretty much it.

Easier than x-wind landing, for sure.

Ick No. No slips on takeoff. Once the wheels are off the ground let her turn into the wind. Most pilots don't fly coordinated enough as it is in the climb. Intentional slipping is counterproductive.

 

[dennyleeb]

yeah I always do the full deflection into the wind but was more curious about wind speeds. Friday I am planning a trip and it is looking like I will have 18 gusting 24ish (guesstimate) my plane has a 15kt crosswind component (182) I normally don't see more than 7-8 kt crosswind

 

[jesse]

yeah I always do the full deflection into the wind but was more curious about wind speeds. Friday I am planning a trip and it is looking like I will have 18 gusting 24ish (guesstimate) my plane has a 15kt crosswind component (182) I normally don't see more than 7-8 kt crosswind

How much of that is actual crosswind component? The wind could very DRAMATICALLY between now and then.

 

[dennyleeb]

How much of that is actual crosswind component? The wind could very DRAMATICALLY between now and then.

Yes I know it can vary greatly I am about 400hr instrument rated pilot. Just have not done crosswind takeoffs at those kind of wind speeds. Just looking for what you guys use as a rule, any pointers. When I don't know, I ask questions like this one. Trying to expand my envelope safely. Plane will me at max gross.

 

[Sac Arrow]

I wouldn't keep it in a slip for several seconds, BUT I would be in a slip until the wheels were off the ground.

 

[dell30rb]

I was taught

full deflection with ailerons, reducing as speed picks up.
rudder as necessary to track centerline

here is where I may differ from some of you - when I reach liftoff speed I was taught to yank the airplane off the runway, and at the same time transition from the slip (tracking straight) to a crab. The reason for this is so that a gusty crosswind will not blow you around the runway while your wheels are still lightly touching the ground - side loading your landing gear.

When taking off in a crosswind, you want your wheels to be planted until takeoff, then you want to make a very quick transition from wheels planted to flying. Don't just let it get light and fly itself off like you normally would, or the gusts are going you push you around and side load your gear.

It may sound dangerous to yank the airplane off the runway but just remember you're looking for a quick transition, give the yoke a noticeable tug depending on how you are trimmed. Once your wheels leave the ground let your nose cock into the wind and you'll pick up some airspeed and really scoot on up into the sky

 

[Rex Kramer]

Enough rudder to keep the airplane aligned with the centerline and enough aileron into the wind to keep the wings level. Lift off in a slip, then transition to a crab once airborne, which is really just relaxing the slip control inputs minus the right rudder needed for the left turning tendencies.

 

[Skylane81E]

I won't take off in it unless I'm willing to land in it.

I've flown in winds greater than what you are expecting so the plane should be able to do it, BUT can you? If you are used to only seeing under 10kts it might be worth rethinking.

 

[poadeleted20]

Re: Crosswind takeoffs

Ick No. No slips on takeoff. Once the wheels are off the ground let her turn into the wind. Most pilots don't fly coordinated enough as it is in the climb. Intentional slipping is counterproductive.

Amen.

 

[dmccormack]

Re: Crosswind takeoffs

Full deflection, then reduce as speed builds.

In a light TW it's far better to keep the upwind wheel rolling for a few feet before liftoff. Once there's sufficient airspeed, wings level, ball centered and climb.

 

[denverpilot]

Ick No. No slips on takeoff. Once the wheels are off the ground let her turn into the wind. Most pilots don't fly coordinated enough as it is in the climb. Intentional slipping is counterproductive.

Not to mention full "controls" deflection for such a stunt would include the rudder, which would send you off into the ditch...

Aileron deflection, yes. Rudder no.

 

[denverpilot]

Oh, to answer the question... Here's my take on it.

Hold the nosegear on the ground or at least low enough it doesn't drop into the centering cam (since we're talking specifically about a 182 here), to maintain nosewheel steering, normal rotation speed for a *constant* crosswind, rotate crisply and get it aloft and off the runway, then let it crab. Stay in ground effect to Vx and then get up and away. transition to Vy or faster if you love your cylinders unless you need Vx for obstacle clearance.

In gusts, add a little fudge factor faster holding the nosewheel firmly planted, so that once you come off, you won't sink back into the runway.

Since there's a ten knot difference between rotation speed and Vx in a 182 under normal conditions, 5 knots is plenty. Accelerate in ground effect (happens fast) and climb away.

It'll let you know when it's ready to come off. Don't stare at the airspeed indicator, fly it up and off crisply but without any over-controlling with up-elevator and let it crab to where it wants to point to maintain runway heading.

Stay over the runway in case of engine failure. Don't let it drift off to one side. Be prepared to cross-control and land immediately if you lose the engine.

In that much wind some significant part of the crosswind will be headwind, it'll happen pretty quick compared to a no-wind takeoff.

Do your performance charts for the takeoff distance both ways and you'll know how much sooner for your weight. (You always do your takeoff performance numbers anyway, right? )

Do your landing data too so you know if you're going through the fence if the engine quits.

 

[dennyleeb]

thanks for the replies

what is the max direct x-wind takeoff you have done (esp. you high wing guys)

 

[COFlyBoy]

My takeoff limits are whatever I'm willing to land in.

You said you usually see 7-8 knots x-wind component. Does that mean you are not comfortable with more? If not, then I suggest some more x-wind practice (with or without CFI).

I went out to do some x-wind practice and ended up with a x-wind component that exceeded the max demonstrated for my plane. It was scary and took 3 go-arounds. Then decided that I would make one more approach and divert if it didn't work and make the sheepish call for my wife to come pick me up. It was further complicated by the trees and houses that surround the runway at the airpark making the air tumble across the runway.

I actually felt more confident afterward, but I set my maximum x-wind limit much lower.

Edit: I estimate the x-wind comp was roughly 25 to 30 mph.

 

[TripleZ]

thanks for the replies

what is the max direct x-wind takeoff you have done (esp. you high wing guys)

C172
15kts gusting to 24kts. NOT a pure crosswind though. The 24kts full gust component was near the 15kts crosswind limit for the C172.

Pure crosswind was 12-14kts, no big gusts. Nice day for landing practice. Honestly..... other than making damn sure the controls were correct for taxi (anytime there is wind), I didn't think twice about the takeoff.

 

[dell30rb]

wildest ride I have had is a 10g15 direct crosswind in a 152 as a student with an instructor.. and a 15 g 20 in a piper warrior more recently. Not so bad really but I had a wide runway.

 

[dmccormack]

thanks for the replies

what is the max direct x-wind takeoff you have done (esp. you high wing guys)

30G37 in an A36.

Was a non-event (ignored the centerline)

 

[poadeleted20]

Not to mention full "controls" deflection for such a stunt would include the rudder, which would send you off into the ditch...

Aileron deflection, yes. Rudder no.

Again, depends what you fly. In a Grumman, initially you'll need rudder opposite the wind to counter the weathervaning tendency in a crosswind with that free-castering nosewheel. Folks with nosewheel steering will need to keep it pretty well centered until nosewheel liftoff, and then may need right rudder to counteract torque/p-factor plus or minus correction to counter the weathervaning tendency (as with the Grumman) depending on which side the wind is on.

BTW, my observation giving refresher training is that failure to adjust rudder upon nosewheel liftoff in nosewheel steering airplanes is a very common hole in pilot technique -- which gets real obvious when the nose lifts and promptly yaws left with no wind or into the wind with a big crosswind.

 

[dennyleeb]

My takeoff limits are whatever I'm willing to land in.

You said you usually see 7-8 knots x-wind component. Does that mean you are not comfortable with more? If not, then I suggest some more x-wind practice (with or without CFI).

I went out to do some x-wind practice and ended up with a x-wind component that exceeded the max demonstrated for my plane. It was scary and took 3 go-arounds. Then decided that I would make one more approach and divert if it didn't work and make the sheepish call for my wife to come pick me up. It was further complicated by the trees and houses that surround the runway at the airpark making the air tumble across the runway.

I actually felt more confident afterward, but I set my maximum x-wind limit much lower.

Edit: I estimate the x-wind comp was roughly 25 to 30 mph.

No I have made 15kt direct x-wind landings, non issue, just don't see it very often here, I am just gonna put in the right aileron (keep the ball centered) and hold her down till about 70 and fly

just wanted others stories, limits, tips, etc

 

[dmccormack]

No I have made 15kt direct x-wind landings, non issue, just don't see it very often here, I am just gonna put in the right aileron (keep the ball centered) and hold her down till about 70 and fly

just wanted others stories, limits, tips, etc

I think you mean you'll apply aileron deflection into the wind (which has two effects: keeps upwind wing down and imposes differential drag that assists in tracking). Right or left will depend on where its coming from.

As airspeed builds you'll need less deflection, but rudder is used to maintain track during the ground roll -- who cares about the ball then?

Once you're airborne, get the wings level, and apply right rudder (in an American single) to maintain coordinated flight and reduce drag from slipping or skidding so you climb to the greatest altitude in the shortest time (Vy).

 

[dennyleeb]

I think you mean you'll apply aileron deflection into the wind (which has two effects: keeps upwind wing down and imposes differential drag that assists in tracking). Right or left will depend on where its coming from.

As airspeed builds you'll need less deflection, but rudder is used to maintain track during the ground roll -- who cares about the ball then?

Once you're airborne, get the wings level, and apply right rudder (in an American single) to maintain coordinated flight and reduce drag from slipping or skidding so you climb to the greatest altitude in the shortest time (Vy).

yes, on this day it will be to the right

 

[Morne]

Worst crosswinds I've tried, in a 172 and with a CFI sitting next to me, were 17G23 80 degrees off of the runway. On a 37' wide runway (and that measurement was before the weeds starting encroaching). It was the day I was going to solo, too - we decided to put it off one more lesson! I handled it fine, and my CFI was pleased, but you just don't turn a student loose on a day like that.

The take-off is not the big deal in my mind. The limiting factor is what you are comfortable landing in. In case of a problem, you want to be able to fly the pattern and come back down ASAP. A wind that you can't land in, on the very runway you're using, is a wind you shouldn't take off in.

 

[EugeneR]

Not to mention full "controls" deflection for such a stunt would include the rudder, which would send you off into the ditch...

Aileron deflection, yes. Rudder no.

Of course, I meant ailerons ) Rudder as needed...

 

[RyanShort1]

I've noticed that 9 out of 10 of my tailwheel trainees end up sideslipping on takeoff without me telling them to. I dunno if that's what they've been taught, or they just do it automatically, but it's something I have to break them of as quickly as possible. Our climb rate is already low enough in the Cub on a hot day, and to kill it even further by slipping is nuts. As soon as you're airborne, give it a quick turn into the wind to set the crab angle, and keep those wings level and only use an appropriate amount of rudder to maintain coordination, please!

Ryan

 

[dmccormack]

yes, on this day it will be to the right

Maybe -- the actual wind speed and direction on the part of the runway you're on is all that matters.

Forecasts are educated guesses for a wide area. I've seen wind socks blowing in the opposite direction on the same field many times (did this weekend at KPTD).

 

[Skyhawk4754]

what is the max direct x-wind takeoff you have done (esp. you high wing guys)


Around here It's a odd day if the wind sock is NOT straight out in one direction or another.......you should see the squirrel y landings on a CALM day

 

[MBDiagMan]

It's GUSTY cross wind take offs that concern me. A few weeks ago a strong left cross wind gust hit me just as the tail was coming up. Added to all the left turning tendencies that already exist, it was almost disastrous.

 

[John Collins]

Proper use of the ailerons in the takeoff are very important. Steering with the nose wheel can become difficult without the use of the ailerons, particularly if the crosswind is from the left. If the crosswind is strong, I may still have an aileron input at liftoff as it can make tracking the centerline much easier. After liftoff, the ailerons can be neutralized to prevent the roll and the aircraft will weather-vane into the wind as it accelerates into the airstream. With a direct crosswind, if you can choose the runway, it is easier to have the wind coming from the right. I would use every advantage of angle including lining up on the downwind side of the runway and track towards the crosswind to the extent that the runway width would allow.

 

[RoscoeT]

Re: Crosswind takeoffs

Ick No. No slips on takeoff. Once the wheels are off the ground let her turn into the wind. Most pilots don't fly coordinated enough as it is in the climb. Intentional slipping is counterproductive.

If you're not in a slip for a moment after liftoff, you're not doing it right. I'm surprised nobody has quoted the FAA's Airplane Flying Handbook:

INITIAL CLIMB
If proper crosswind correction is being applied, as soon
as the airplane is airborne, it will be sideslipping into the
wind sufficiently to counteract the drifting effect of the
wind. [Figure 5-5] This sideslipping should be continued
until the airplane has a positive rate of climb. At that time,
the airplane should be turned into the wind to establish
just enough wind correction angle to counteract the
wind and then the wings rolled level.​

AOPA shows us fairly poor x-wind takeoff technique here:

www.aopa.org/membership/articles/2011/110901husky-vs-hurricane-irene.html?wtmcid%3B&WT.mc_sect=swu#.TmCqsPvluUc.facebook​

 

[dmccormack]

Re: Crosswind takeoffs

If you're not in a slip for a moment after liftoff, you're not doing it right. I'm surprised nobody has quoted the FAA's Airplane Flying Handbook:

INITIAL CLIMB
If proper crosswind correction is being applied, as soon
as the airplane is airborne, it will be sideslipping into the
wind sufficiently to counteract the drifting effect of the
wind. [Figure 5-5] This sideslipping should be continued
until the airplane has a positive rate of climb. At that time,
the airplane should be turned into the wind to establish
just enough wind correction angle to counteract the
wind and then the wings rolled level.​

Right, but the sideslip is momentary and insurance in case you touch back down before becoming airborne (it happens)

As soon as you have a "positive rate of climb" (e.g. you're not merely floating along in ground effect) you transition to a crab to maintain runway heading (as required).

 

[RoscoeT]

Re: Crosswind takeoffs

As soon as you have a "positive rate of climb" (e.g. you're not merely floating along in ground effect) you transition to a crab to maintain runway heading (as required).

That's exactly what the handbook (quoted) already says.

 

[Skylane81E]

thanks for the replies

what is the max direct x-wind takeoff you have done (esp. you high wing guys)

Take off? Not a heck of a lot, maybe a little over 10kts.

However I've landed in 18G30 direct cross before

 

[flyingron]

Hold the nosegear on the ground or at least low enough it doesn't drop into the centering cam (since we're talking specifically about a 182 here), to maintain nosewheel steering, normal rotation speed for a *constant* crosswind, rotate crisply and get it aloft and off the runway, then let it crab. Stay in ground effect to Vx and then get up and away. transition to Vy or faster if you love your cylinders unless you need Vx for obstacle clearance.

There's nothing wrong with using the nosewheel as a crutch, but if you're doing things right, you shouldn't need to do this. You should have the appropriate rudder and aileron inputs that the nose gear is entirely spurious as you reach rotation speed. There's no need to "stay in ground effect" if you took off at normal rotation speed. Unless you're doing softfield takeoffs and forcing it into the air as soon as she'll fly, you should get into the normal climb attitude immediately.

Stay over the runway in case of engine failure. Don't let it drift off to one side. Be prepared to cross-control and land immediately if you lose the engine.

Not just because of engine failure, you always want to track out straight. You'll be at some fields where there is a parallel runway which you don't want to be drifting towards and there may be upwind traffic that is attempting to side step around you.

Also if you're just doing pattern work, realize that when you turn crosswind your crosswind will become either a headwind or a tailwind, be prepared to turn earlier or later to compensate.

 

[poadeleted20]

what is the max direct x-wind takeoff you have done (esp. you high wing guys)

More than I will ever:
a ) admit, or
b ) do again.


Let's just say that when it gets more than half your stall speed, you'd better be awfully good.

 

[flyingron]

Re: Crosswind takeoffs

If you're not in a slip for a moment after liftoff, you're not doing it right. I'm surprised nobody has quoted the FAA's Airplane Flying Handbook:

I see nothing contradictory to what I said. Postitive rate of climb means off the ground to the point that you're not going to retouch. THat's well before the original poster was talking about (raising the gear etc...).

Really, at positive rate my left foot comes off the pedal and my hand heads to the gear level. You don't CLIMB in a slip.

 

[flyingron]

More than I will ever:
a ) admit, or
b ) do again.


Let's just say that when it gets more than half your stall speed, you'd better be awfully good.

Yep, if start skittering sideways on the runway while trying to rotate, you're probably pushing it too far.

 

[gismo]

More than I will ever:
a ) admit, or
b ) do again.


Let's just say that when it gets more than half your stall speed, you'd better be awfully good.

Or have a wide runway and/or a plane that gets airborne in about 100 ft.

 

[sdflyer]

PTS (PPL/CPL) states:

"position flight controls for existing wing condition" and "maintain directional control and power wind-drift correction throughout take off and climb"


So I guess that all we have to do