Cross wind landing practice

tonycondon said:
its not just a balance of feet, but a dance of feet along with aileron in put from neutral to the stop, and maybe back. and dont forget to flare :) no wonder most students who are making decent landings regress to flat landings when getting into crosswinds. they're overloaded enough with the crosswind correction they just simply forget to flare.
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I think there's a lot of truth to that. Plus, touching down wing-low feels pretty unnatural until you've practiced it enough to overcome the feeling.


Trapper John
 
Different airplanes require different cross wind techniques, so there's not one solution for every situation.

During Tropical Storm Fay this summer I landed a B727 at MCO Runway 36R with winds 270@ 35 gusting to 45. The last 500 feet on approach was a wild ride to say the least.

Less than a third of the flights were making it in that morning.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
Different airplanes require different cross wind techniques, so there's not one solution for every situation.
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Absolutely. Which is why Student Pilots need to learn and master the two basic x-wind landing techniques, and then learn to adjust/adapt/improvise as needed for the particular instance.
 
jmaynard said:
One thing about flying out of southern Minnesota is that you have to be able to deal with stiff gusty crosswinds, or you don't fly very much.

I do about like you do, with one difference: I set up the slip as soon as I get established on final. That gives me time to get it dialed in before I get close to the runway. I also approach it a little differently from what you described: I point it straight down the runway with the rudder and hold it over the centerline (as well as I usually do, which isn't very...need to fix that) with the ailerons. Until I got that explanation shortly after getting my ticket, my crosswind landings sucked.

The Zodiac's official demonstrated crosswind component is 20 knots, but with its all-flying rudder, it's got enough rudder power to handle just about anything. That helps in a crosswind: I know the airplane will get the job done.
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Winds in Minnesota.....Ya got that right.....someday I'm a gonna find that guy that turns on all those big fans on the ridge..........:lol:
 
KennyFlys said:
I like that you feel that way. I've seen many schools that will cut out flights when cross winds get past 15 knots. It needs to be practiced because you can't always predict and certainly not control what winds will do when you get to a destination 200 miles away. We limit solo flight but no restrictions with an instructor.

Cross wind landings is a dance with the wind; a constant change. That's why I previously said it's a balance made often with just one foot not between both. If the wind is constant enough, put the rudder in and vary the aileron. If it takes more of both, use it. Basically, whatever input it takes to maintain alignment with the centerline and stay over the top of it.
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I remember shortly after I got my PP in 2001 I was over on the other side of the state and had reserved a 182 and CFI for a local orientation flight before coming in on my own with my wife from the other side of the state. Gusty winds as are common in eastern Washington. They had grounded all their students for the day, but I had no trouble with the 182. CFI's comment was that it was nice to fly with someone who knew what he was doing. Guess I fooled him. :D

Calling a crosswind landing a dance is a great description. Nothing constant or stabilized about it at all. Constantly adjusting rudder or ailerons to keep it pointed down and centered on the runway. Something I'm going to have to work on when I get back in the air. I know that is one skill that will have deteriorated since I last flew in early July.
 
All the commentary here about intuitive control inputs supports the notion that although not necessary, learning to land taildraggers in crosswinds helps you keep those dance steps fresh. When the wind is unsteady in speed or direction, or gradients are encountered, x-wind landings are definitely more art than science in any plane. With the CG aft of the mains, even in a fairly light crosswind, you absolutely must keep those feet alive, along with the correct aileron inputs, whereas with most trikes, there's a little more leeway.

I think if you have spent some time landing taildraggers, you're less likely to be taken by surprise. You just don't get spoiled landing those things, even though it's not a big deal to work the rudder properly. That's probably why we all hear (or say) so much about how that's "real" flying, etc.
Even experienced taildragger pilots sweat more landings than the others.

But in the end, it's all about how many xwind landings you have under your belt in that particular plane, regardless of type. And the "right way" is the way that gets you down safely and/or efficiently, without side-loading the gear, pranging the nosewheel, dragging a wing, or swapping ends.


I've done it both ways, in a few fairly different types, and I'd say it definitely depends. So far, the closest I've ever come to going off the runway, other than letting the Champ get away from me that one time, was after the roundout, in a Skyhawk, in a shifting crosswind on a early solo flight . I was crossed up and thinking I'd greased it on, and next thing I know I'm still in ground effect, and drifting off the runway because the wind had changed up and picked up. Had to think for a precious second (bad!) before I realized the answer was opposite aileron. throughout this, my feet were just doing whatever they had to to keep the nose aligned with the runway. You can certainly go wrong starting on final in a crosswind, but the real moment of truth really doesn't have much to do with how you came down to the runway, barring obvious stuff like airspeed and descent rate.

I can't even remember which method I used initially on that approach, although it may have been the sideslip method as opposed to the "crab & kick" (which i agree is a misnomer).
 
rottydaddy said:
All the commentary here about intuitive control inputs supports the notion that although not necessary, learning to land taildraggers in crosswinds helps you keep those dance steps fresh. When the wind is unsteady in speed or direction, or gradients are encountered, x-wind landings are definitely more art than science in any plane. With the CG aft of the mains, even in a fairly light crosswind, you absolutely must keep those feet alive, along with the correct aileron inputs, whereas with most trikes, there's a little more leeway.

I think if you have spent some time landing taildraggers, you're less likely to be taken by surprise. You just don't get spoiled landing those things, even though it's not a big deal to work the rudder properly. That's probably why we all hear (or say) so much about how that's "real" flying, etc.
Even experienced taildragger pilots sweat more landings than the others.

But in the end, it's all about how many xwind landings you have under your belt in that particular plane, regardless of type. And the "right way" is the way that gets you down safely and/or efficiently, without side-loading the gear, pranging the nosewheel, dragging a wing, or swapping ends.


I've done it both ways, in a few fairly different types, and I'd say it definitely depends. So far, the closest I've ever come to going off the runway, other than letting the Champ get away from me that one time, was after the roundout, in a Skyhawk, in a shifting crosswind on a early solo flight . I was crossed up and thinking I'd greased it on, and next thing I know I'm still in ground effect, and drifting off the runway because the wind had changed up and picked up. Had to think for a precious second (bad!) before I realized the answer was opposite aileron. throughout this, my feet were just doing whatever they had to to keep the nose aligned with the runway. You can certainly go wrong starting on final in a crosswind, but the real moment of truth really doesn't have much to do with how you came down to the runway, barring obvious stuff like airspeed and descent rate.

I can't even remember which method I used initially on that approach, although it may have been the sideslip method as opposed to the "crab & kick" (which i agree is a misnomer).
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Crosswind landings in tailwheels is as you have so correctly said, indeed a mixture of science, art, and tap dance.
As an instructor specializing in tailwheel instruction throughout my tenure in aviation, and especially dealing with airplanes like the AT6 and the Pitts, I have always taught the concept that accepts the airplane itself as the final judge on whether or not you are exceeding the demonstrated crosswind component on any landing. Side slipping the airplane on down final maintaining runway heading will give you a rough idea of what to expect during the flare, but considering surface variance with crosswind close to the ground I prefer a more "gentle" transition to a wing down position that holds the wind correction in during the flare as opposed to what is commonly called the "kick out".
It's making this final transition that requires a wing down for the wind and enough rudder to hold the runway heading that tells you immediately if the aircraft can handle what it's experiencing in crosswind NOW! If you have aileron and rudder available in excess of what the airplane is telling you it needs, the airplane can handle the crosswind.
This leaves the all important remaining factor in the equation; can the PILOT handle the airplane!! :))
Dudley Henriques
 
Just another 2¢ - In addition to the "dance" is also about detecting changes and correcting them early. Seeing an undesirable change early is also a developed skill and one that I think plays a bid part in the smoothness of the maneuver. The earlier you see it, the less the overall deviation and the less correction it will require.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Just another 2¢ - In addition to the "dance" is also about detecting changes and correcting them early. Seeing an undesirable change early is also a developed skill and one that I think plays a bid part in the smoothness of the maneuver. The earlier you see it, the less the overall deviation and the less correction it will require.
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Excellent point.

This is why maintaining centerline is so critical for student pilots in nosewheel airplanes. It is the most obvious, best indicator of drift.
 
KennyFlys said:
Which is a good reason to keep the nose up there until it falls through on its own. Even when it does, keep the back pressure in and use aerodynamic breaking.

In a strong cross wind, I make them aware of the difference between having speed and rudder authority versus the nose touching down at lower speeds; and possibly having a much greater grip on the runway while that peddle was making use of the rudder just moments earlier.

As far as I'm concerned, if there is a squeak on the nosewheel, a small plane is still going too fast and the nose was likely forced down rather than letting it fall through on its own.
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At Boeing Field we only have 13/31 so we get 90 degree Xwinds and even strong tailwinds because we defer to SeaTac's flow which is only about 3 miles away and we're under the short final for their airliners onto 16. It can take them 20 minutes to swing all their traffic around for changing winds.

In Xwinds progressing from the 20 knot range into the 30 knot range I land flatter and flatter, quickly forcing the nosewheel down and holding it down with very firm elevator. It is still sequenced upwind main, downwind main, then nosewheel but can look "flat" because of very rapid sequencing due to strong winds demanding it. There may be some nosewheel squeak or not.

Either way that nose has to be held down or some hellacious wind will lift it back up. Aileron's too for wings of course, and all through taxi to tiedown. There's never been any damage and usually no one else is out flying.
 
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dmccormack said:
Excellent point.

This is why maintaining centerline is so critical for student pilots in nosewheel airplanes. It is the most obvious, best indicator of drift.
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True. And right up there should also be acute peripheral visual awareness of the exact edge of the RWY.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
\In Xwinds progressing from the 20 knot range into the 30 knot range I land flatter and flatter, quickly forcing the nosewheel down and holding it down with very firm elevator. It is still sequenced upwind main, downwind main, then nosewheel but can look "flat" because of very rapid sequencing due to strong winds demanding it. There may be some nosewheel squeak or not.

Either way that nose has to be held down or some hellacious wind will lift it back up. Aileron's too for wings of course, and all through taxi to tiedown. There's never been any damage and usually no one else is out flying.
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The wind is picking your nosewheel back up because you're landing too fast and your wings are flying. Since the wings are flying every gust of wind is a bigger problem because the airplane will want to fly.

Generally forcing a nosewheel down and holding it down with elevator is only going to promote very bad things and lead to major directional control issues. Your wings are still flying and your wheels aren't carrying much weight and have little traction. The nosewheel is also going to want to start shuddering and such technique is the start of many prop strikes in the NTSB repository.

An airplane makes a horrible ground vehicle with the tri-gear setup, tiny wheels, and almost no weight on the wheels at speed. The faster you try to convert an airplane into a ground vehicle the more difficult it is going to be to maintain control. You lose the ability to 'fly' the airplane in the grosswind when you're forcing all the wheels down at once--so the only thing that is keeping you on the runway is the *VERY* limited traction with your wheels. One day you'll get blown right off the side.

If you hold the nosewheel down a big gust of wind may lift you back into the sky. As soon as that happens you'll hit the runway nose low attitude. Now you're trying to drive a 2000 lb wheelbarrow and your friends want to know how you managed to propstrike in a 172.
 
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jesse said:
The wind is picking your nosewheel back up because you're landing too fast and your wings are flying. Since the wings are flying every gust of wind is a bigger problem because the airplane will want to fly.

Generally forcing a nosewheel down and holding it down with elevator is only going to promote very bad things and lead to major directional control issues. Your wings are still flying and your wheels aren't carrying much weight and have little traction. The nosewheel is also going to want to start shuddering and such technique is the start of many prop strikes in the NTSB repository.

An airplane makes a horrible ground vehicle with the tri-gear setup, tiny wheels, and almost no weight on the wheels at speed. The faster you try to convert an airplane into a ground vehicle the more difficult it is going to be to maintain control. You lose the ability to 'fly' the airplane in the grosswind when you're forcing all the wheels down at once--so the only thing that is keeping you on the runway is the *VERY* limited traction with your wheels. One day you'll get blown right off the side.

If you hold the nosewheel down a big gust of wind may lift you back into the sky. As soon as that happens you'll hit the runway nose low attitude. Now you're trying to drive a 2000 lb wheelbarrow and your friends want to know how you managed to propstrike in a 172.
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Are you envisioning high wind landing speeds greater than the normal landing speed plus the gust factor?

If a plane gets lifted back up in high wind, I wouldn't hit the runway nose low as you postulate because obviously the elevator controls must be quickly altered during (preferably at the very beginning) of said lift to avoid the scenario you outline. If the pilot's too slow with that, a quick application of full power to go around is my second choice. Corrections on the way down are usually too late unless power is quickly added.

After over 15 years/5000 landings, it's curious to me that that even the 100s of landings in very high winds have not produced the maladies of which you speak. Beginners luck maybe?
 
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Dave, I think Jesse summarized it pretty well, based on my understanding of the aerodynamics. You don't want to be forcing the wheels on the ground in a nose-dragger.:no:
 
gprellwitz said:
Dave, I think Jesse summarized it pretty well, based on my understanding of the aerodynamics. You don't want to be forcing the wheels on the ground in a nose-dragger.:no:
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In those higher velocity kinds of winds (mid 30 knots or greater) I would never wait for a nosewheel to "settle" after the mains touch. It's going down because I put it down and keep it there. That doesn't mean wheelbarrowing the nosewheel, which I guess some may be surprised I've never done.
 
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tonycondon said:
firewall replacement is expensive
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Yeah I know. The ones I've seen clubs replace at BFI were from landings in avergage or lower winds by guys (by their own admission) wheelbarrowing the planes in from an improper and too late flare. Slow motor skills it appears to me.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
True. And right up there should also be acute peripheral visual awareness of the exact edge of the RWY.
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Yep. And peripheral awareness also helps with height sense.

Visually, landing is a combination of the yin of focusing on details and the yang of seeing the big picture.

images
 
I was taught to not wait for the nosewheel to just drop under any circumstances, but not to shove the yoke forward, either.
Seems to me that once you're on the mains, if you run out of rudder effectiveness, you're slow enough that the nose will have wanted to come down anyway. In other words, intitially, the rudder will be more help than the self-centering effect of the nosewheel in keeping you aligned properly.

So I don't see much need to push as soon as the mains touch, in any wind. I've never felt the need to do it, and know that a trike may swivel straight on its own at first, but that's more because of the CG being fwd of the mains... it'll do it even with the nosewheel off the ground. And in a nasty crosswind, that won't help for long without vigorous use of rudder and aileron, even after the nosewheel is planted. Especially on a wet or icy runway...

That being said, though, most wheelbarrowing incidents seem to have more to do with bouncing or just coming in too hot in general- a common mistake in a crosswind situation.

So many pilots, especially students, have tried to get back down after bouncing by shoving the yoke or stick forward after bouncing or rounding out high and hearing that stall horn when they're several feet up!! I'm one of them, and I guess I got lucky, because other than "landing flat" a couple of times, I've never touched down on the nosewheel, let alone damaged the nose gear.

I've never had a gust pick me back up again once the mains were on- crosswind gusts have always tended to just encourage drifting. I'm sure it's possible, but if you're holding back elevator and get airborne again, that could also be nasty.

So my rule of thumb for any wind is: don't wait for it to drop, but don't push it down before it's ready. It's kind of like lifting the nosewheel for a normal takeoff: you don't wait until it flies itself off, but you don't pull back until it's about ready to fly.
 
I would agree with this. The nose wheel should be allowed to come down naturally after touchdown. In any well balanced tri-gear airplane being landed within the cg envelope, it should come down fairly fast after touchdown anyway, regardless of the crosswind. Holding normal control inputs to deal with the wind after touchdown is standard procedure.
Dudley Henriques
 
Ken Ibold said:
In the final analysis either one will work, just depends on what's more comfortable for you. My technique evolved when I realized most pax are uncomfortable with the prolonged slip. You just have to know what's right for you and your airplane, and practice it.
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I agree...you gotta remember the folks in the back are getting the blunt end of your slipping moment. Put me down for slipping in the flare but I also agree that what ever is most comfortable to the PIC is the best way..as long as its safe
 
RMCN172RG said:
The theory is by landing with more speed you keep aileron and rudder authority until the wheels are firmly on the ground.
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Extra speed really only has a place in gusty conditions... Using more flaps cant really help either especially in ground effect..all of your induced drag is gone so they are making nothing but lift when that gust hits..untill you pop up out of ground effect...dough...you know what comes next. All planes are different but I usually use very little or no flaps in gusty condtions with 1/3 of the wind plus 1/2 the gust factor...in normal crosswinds..normal speeds, normal or slightly less flap settings.
 
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Posted in "cool places to fly"....10/26/08p.m.

When we were 30nm S. at 8000 the PIA controller was talking to a Centurion 37Y (I know that guy, he's in hangar 13....) who was 40 W and inbound. I asked Tom (ATC) do I get to watch him or does he get to watch me?

Well, as it turns out, he got to watch me. At 1000 agl, not enough rudder for the slip, added a few turns on the left engine. Full flaps, down on the deck early at 90 knots, bleeding it off over the grass. Controls to the stop and back several times; got the left main down (runway 35, wind 290 @20G40), dumped the flaps, whew.

Bill & Pam Albers, in the Centurion was on short final as I turned back on the taxiway. Classic left wing down, right rudder, he went about halfway down the runway, put the coal to it and I heard him call appcon at Peoria for runway 31.

In my bird (and each is type is different) I would fly this set of conditions with flaps. I know, I know, dumping flaps in a retract is an Rx for an inadvertent gear retraction. Hower, in the Seneca it's (1) not the normal condition, and (2) gets the aircraft to NOT fly anymore VERY smartly. Twins don't float much at all.

The Centurion didn't make in in. I have time in those, too, and I don't think they retract quickly enough to make it useful. Pilot did a good job, made a good call. I think it's pilot and aircraft specific.

In a TW like Geoffrey says, that's what the higher speed wheel landing is for. You can kill lift after the touch with a smidge of quick Yoke Forward....similar function to quickly dumping manual flaps. I used to to wheel landings in the Cessna 140 all the time in gusty xwinds, one yank of the stick and you're outta dere. ('couse I'd land purpendicularly in the grass a lotta times, to.....it would take maybe 250 feet or so....
 
bbchien said:
In a TW like Geoffrey says, that's what the higher speed wheel landing is for. You can kill lift after the touch with a smidge of quick Yoke Forward....similar function to quickly dumping manual flaps. I used to to wheel landings in the Cessna 140 all the time in gusty xwinds, one yank of the stick and you're outta dere. ('couse I'd land purpendicularly in the grass a lotta times, to.....it would take maybe 250 feet or so....
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Thing is, you still gotta get the tail on the ground.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Just another 2¢ - In addition to the "dance" is also about detecting changes and correcting them early. Seeing an undesirable change early is also a developed skill and one that I think plays a bid part in the smoothness of the maneuver. The earlier you see it, the less the overall deviation and the less correction it will require.
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And how does a pilot detect an unintended change in direction as early as possible... look way down the runway.
 
lancefisher said:
And how does a pilot detect an unintended change in direction as early as possible... look way down the runway.
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I believe what the poster meant to imply was that the earlier ANY error is detected, the less correction is needed. His comment was in my opinion correct and in fact, probably the single most important aspect involved in safe flying. What this amounts to generally is simply mentally flying the airplane ahead of the point where it is NOW in the sky. The time line that defines exactly how far ahead of the aircraft you should be will vary considerably as you progress through a flight.
At altitude in cruise, you don't have to be as far ahead of the aircraft for example, as you need to be in the flare during a crosswind landing.
Those of us who have done air show display flying are deeply aware of this aspect in the way we mentally approach our flying. We consider things like this quite seriously in our safety studies dealing with human factors in accidents.
 
Dudley Henriques said:
I believe what the poster meant to imply was that the earlier ANY error is detected, the less correction is needed. His comment was in my opinion correct and in fact, probably the single most important aspect involved in safe flying. What this amounts to generally is simply mentally flying the airplane ahead of the point where it is NOW in the sky. The time line that defines exactly how far ahead of the aircraft you should be will vary considerably as you progress through a flight.
At altitude in cruise, you don't have to be as far ahead of the aircraft for example, as you need to be in the flare during a crosswind landing.
Those of us who have done air show display flying are deeply aware of this aspect in the way we mentally approach our flying. We consider things like this quite seriously in our safety studies dealing with human factors in accidents.
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I have to go along with this one. In the best example I can think of took place Tuesday night. My student flew the first four approaches with runway lights and landing/taxi lights on. He was safe but I knew he could do better. On the fifth, he lost the landing/taxi lights. When asked what he was looking for then, he noted it was down the runway.

His sixth landing changed considerably for the better. He went from focusing where the light beam was pointed to only down the runway allowing a better indication of his attitude. His approach was more stable and his round-out was more gradual and stable resulting in a much softer landing. The next three were progressively better.

Likewise, use the nose of the airplane for any reference to the furtherest accompanying reference (think steep turns). I analogize it to aiming a rifle with the far site at the end of the barrel as opposed to the nearer site on a handgun. It works quite well.
 
lancefisher said:
And how does a pilot detect an unintended change in direction as early as possible... look way down the runway.
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Dudley read my post as intended. But if I'm not mistaken he misread yours as criticizing mine. I think you were just providing an example.

Yes, looking way down the runway is one way of detecting a change on final. But it's not the only way.

And it's not necessarily the best way for everyone in every airplane. There are those who fly in airplanes where the flare attitude covers the end of the runway. Makes it kinda hard to look way down the runway when you can't see it, yet you still need to detect and counteract deviations. Early.

And, it may not be enough. IMO, detecting very small changes is a learned skill and not solely dependent on where you are looking.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Dudley read my post as intended. But if I'm not mistaken he misread yours as criticizing mine. I think you were just providing an example.

Yes, looking way down the runway is one way of detecting a change on final. But it's not the only way.

And it's not necessarily the best way for everyone in every airplane. There are those who fly in airplanes where the flare attitude covers the end of the runway. Makes it kinda hard to look way down the runway when you can't see it, yet you still need to detect and counteract deviations. Early.

And, it may not be enough. IMO, detecting very small changes is a learned skill and not solely dependent on where you are looking.
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I didn't see the post as criticizing. Mine was just meant to amplify a bit.
Your point about those flying aircraft where the nose blocks the runway is well made. In my case, flying prop fighters throughout my aviation life, this was commonplace.
Maintaining directional control in these airplanes requires a peripheral visual cue that maintains an equidistant triangle to the runway sides inside a 20 to 25 degree cone of vision throughout the roll out.
As Chris Patterakis of the Thunderbirds once said, and he was totally correct, "we don't fly in a one cue world."
The trick is learning to use multiple cues to put the airplane where you want it to be rather than where it wants to go :)
 
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