Cross wind landing practice

[ScottM]

Yesterday was a good day for crosswind landing here in northern Illinois. Many runways in this area are east/west due to prevailing winds from the west. But we get some good southern or northern howlers from time to time. While yesterday was not one of those days the winds did provide for some fun.

Mostly they were 180-190@16G22, my home airport has a 09/27 runway and a 360/180 grass strip. But I needed to pick up a pax at a runway that had a 26/8 runway. While the winds were a little interesting it is not anything I had not done before and I figured I would take off and if I could not get down at the destination I could always come back home and land on the grass.

The one thing I noticed was that nobody was out flying.

The FBO told me the winds were keeping people on the ground. Indeed one of my colleagues aborted a flight earlier in the day due to winds he felt were outside of the crosswind rating of his 172. I thought that really strange since his airport has a runway pointed at a heading of 160. But I never try to criticizes someone who know their limits and abides by them. I was just wondering if there was something missing from my decision process as I felt this WX was withing normal safe flying envelope.

At any rate I started my taxi and applied proper ground Xwind correction, did my run up and took of with the aileron on the left wing in the proper position (controls over hard left, aileron on the left up), I lifted off, got into a crab, tracked the center line. A few bumps and I was haulin' the mail.

I got to the airport where I was picking up my pax. He is a CFI who had been teaching in the morning and we were heading out together for the afternoon. He had not called to say anything about adverse condition. I set up for my landing.

Here is what I do in a moderate to strong crosswind situation and I am wondering if I am doing something odd ball as it seems to work.

When heading on the down wind I set up a crab that allows for me to track a straight line parallel to the runway. This gives me a good idea of what sort of crosswind correction I will need on final as it will be close to the same correction, just in the oposite direction.

I make my turn to base and try to anticipate my turn to final to not over or under shoot it based on the winds. Once on final I do use full flaps, set up my correction and get my track established on the extended centerline.

On short final I start to set up my slip. I turn towards the wind with the ailerons and use opposite rudder to hold my track on the extended centerline. Landing on runway 26 I landed left wing low, with an approach speed a little higher based on the gust factor/2.

Upon landing I use ground Xwind corrections.

This method seems to work just fine.

I am asking because when I went to leave there was a guy in the pattern trying to land. He tried three times and never could do it.

Each time he was right wing low on his slip on short final and tried touching down on his nose wheel before going around and trying again.

Did I learn some crazy way of doing Xwind landings that just happens to work?

What do you guys think? Is this something that should be passed on to other pilots so that they too can land when the wind is not straight down the runway?

 

[tonycondon]

no scott, sounds to me like you are flying with basic fundamentals and thats why you are successful on days like those.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

no scott, sounds to me like you are flying with basic fundamentals and thats why you are successful on days like those.

Heck, I just land in a crab.

 

[tonycondon]

that works ok when you fly a grocery cart

 

[jmaynard]

One thing about flying out of southern Minnesota is that you have to be able to deal with stiff gusty crosswinds, or you don't fly very much.

I do about like you do, with one difference: I set up the slip as soon as I get established on final. That gives me time to get it dialed in before I get close to the runway. I also approach it a little differently from what you described: I point it straight down the runway with the rudder and hold it over the centerline (as well as I usually do, which isn't very...need to fix that) with the ailerons. Until I got that explanation shortly after getting my ticket, my crosswind landings sucked.

The Zodiac's official demonstrated crosswind component is 20 knots, but with its all-flying rudder, it's got enough rudder power to handle just about anything. That helps in a crosswind: I know the airplane will get the job done.

 

[RMCN172RG]

Scott,

The only suggestion is less than full flaps and increase your speed for the gusts.

I had an inerestng landing a couple of weeks ago in Cleveland with winds 90 degrees 15g24. I did everythng the way you do but the gusts still caught me on my first attempt go around and second attempt at touchdown. First was 20 degree flaps, my normal then the second 30 degrees.

Reviewing it later less flaps instead of more flaps was what I should have remembered.

 

[ScottM]

Scott,

The only suggestion is less than full flaps and increase your speed for the gusts.

I do add a gust factor as mentioned above, but I see no reason to not use full flaps. Why do you suggest that?

The extra drag with the full flaps is nice on the round out and helps you to slow down and get the gear on the ground faster. IMHO

 

[tonycondon]

scott im with you. the reason the other guy landed nosewheel first is because he was touching down too fast. or vice versa. either way speed on touchdown is rarely a good thing.

 

[Ted]

Scott, I'm not reading any problem with how you're flying.

I stay in a crab until I'm pretty close to the ground, and only set up the slip shortly before I expect to land. I keep my approach speed higher based on the gust factor. I use full flaps on final.

It seems to me that a number of pilots never got proper training or just never got comfortable with crosswind takeoffs and landings. If you are properly trained in them, it isn't a problem. I think a lot of people are just afraid of them, and that's the biggest problem they have.

 

[Ken Ibold]

As the years go by I have been keeping the crab in later and later down final. These days I keep it crabbed until the flare, then kick it out and land. Managed to three-point, er, two-point, a Citabria in 28G35 winds 80 degrees off the runway using that technique. Couldn't turn right to exit the runway, had to turn left 270 degrees. It happens ...

 

[jmaynard]

As the years go by I have been keeping the crab in later and later down final. These days I keep it crabbed until the flare, then kick it out and land.

I know lots of folks who advocate this technique, but I don't see the attraction of it. I prefer to have the slip established well out so that I'm not making significant changes in the aircraft's configuration and flight path on short final.

 

[RMCN172RG]

I do add a gust factor as mentioned above, but I see no reason to not use full flaps. Why do you suggest that?

The extra drag with the full flaps is nice on the round out and helps you to slow down and get the gear on the ground faster. IMHO

The theory is by landing with more speed you keep aileron and rudder authority until the wheels are firmly on the ground.

 

[rottydaddy]

I think it might have been that other guy who learned some weird technique- or maybe just doesn't have much experience with "real" wind, and as a result was not applying those basics.
It's tempting for pilots unused to a good stiff x-wind (or any good stiff breeze) to dive at the numbers, etc.
Sounds like he might have even been trying to forward slip, only with the nose into the wind instead of the upwind wing... hard to say, but your sideslipping technique is SOP, as far as I know- works well, usually, as does the crab-to-roundout method.

 

[RossFischer]

I know lots of folks who advocate this technique, but I don't see the attraction of it. I prefer to have the slip established well out so that I'm not making significant changes in the aircraft's configuration and flight path on short final.

I like to establish my slip well out on final as well. It gives me more time to feel what the wind is doing to my airplane.

As far as flaps go, it depends on the gust factor and the airplane. If the gust factor is high, I want to get on the ground quickly and keep my time in the flair to a minimum, this typically means only 20 degrees of flaps in the 172, because 30 degrees float with a good wind.

 

[Ken Ibold]

I know lots of folks who advocate this technique, but I don't see the attraction of it. I prefer to have the slip established well out so that I'm not making significant changes in the aircraft's configuration and flight path on short final.

In the final analysis either one will work, just depends on what's more comfortable for you. My technique evolved when I realized most pax are uncomfortable with the prolonged slip. You just have to know what's right for you and your airplane, and practice it.

 

[ScottM]

The theory is by landing with more speed you keep aileron and rudder authority until the wheels are firmly on the ground.

I understand that and do not disagree except if the speed were to become excessive. Your extra speed should be no more than normal landing speed plus one half the gust speed. in the case above I added 2 to 4 knots of extra speed.

My question was specifically about why you say to not use full flaps when landing. one can certainly use full flaps and hit the right speed. The full flaps produce extra drag to slow you down.

 

[poadeleted20]

that works ok when you fly a grocery cart

...or a B-52, C-5, and (I think) a C-17, which all have gear which can be cranked off-axis for crosswind landings. Dunno 'bout 777's, but Greg's Cessna 195 has castering gear to deal with that.

 

[poadeleted20]

I know lots of folks who advocate this technique, but I don't see the attraction of it. I prefer to have the slip established well out so that I'm not making significant changes in the aircraft's configuration and flight path on short final.

My experience is that it's a matter of experience -- the more you have (both overall and recent), the later you can wait to kick out the crab and still keep the airplane's flight path stable. So it's truly a case of "YMMV," and just keep doing whatever works for you.

 

[poadeleted20]

The theory is by landing with more speed you keep aileron and rudder authority until the wheels are firmly on the ground.

I have yet to find a light plane that needs more airspeed than the normal full-flap landing speed to maintain adequate control in howling crosswinds at least twice the max demonstrated value, other than the gust issue already discussed. OTOH, I have seen more folks go hippety-zippety off the end at speed because they landed too fast than I can possibly count or even recollect. I'll stick with teaching full flaps for all "normal" landings, including in crosswinds. If you can't maintain control that way, you should be landing on another runway more aligned with the wind, even if that's at another airport.

 

[Ted]

My experience is that it's a matter of experience -- the more you have (both overall and recent), the later you can wait to kick out the crab and still keep the airplane's flight path stable.

Also what you were taught. My instructor told me to keep the crab until close towards the end, and I fly it as such. What he said is that it was actually easier that way, and I remember us doing a couple each way and I saw he was right. But, this is a bit over a year ago so my exact memory is fuzzy.

So it's truly a case of "YMMV," and just keep doing whatever works for you.

It's hard to argue when your technique gets you and the plane back on the ground safely.

 

[jesse]

The theory is by landing with more speed you keep aileron and rudder authority until the wheels are firmly on the ground.

The problem is that the wheels are never firmly on the ground until the wings quit flying. Your airplane is light, your wheels are small and crappy, and your wing lifts your airplane.

As far as flaps go, it depends on the gust factor and the airplane. If the gust factor is high, I want to get on the ground quickly and keep my time in the flair to a minimum, this typically means only 20 degrees of flaps in the 172, because 30 degrees float with a good wind.

30 degrees of flaps will only float if you're landing too fast. Float = too much airspeed. Slow down and you won't float.

I did my BFR with Tony in a 172 with winds gusting to 36 knots. I added no airspeed on final (not that you'd even know because the airspeed indicator was going nuts up and down, just used the right RPM setting) and landed with full flaps. It was exciting but it was controlled without float or sideload/directional issues.

 

[tonycondon]

...or a B-52, C-5, and (I think) a C-17, which all have gear which can be cranked off-axis for crosswind landings. Dunno 'bout 777's, but Greg's Cessna 195 has castering gear to deal with that.

yep, we were taxiing in 20 knot crosswinds on the way back from gastons. thats when i realized he was driving a grocery cart with a jacobs radial engine.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

...or a B-52, C-5, and (I think) a C-17, which all have gear which can be cranked off-axis for crosswind landings. Dunno 'bout 777's, but Greg's Cessna 195 has castering gear to deal with that.

The 777 has just a straight main gear but it was designed to take a hell of a side load.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

yep, we were taxiing in 20 knot crosswinds on the way back from gastons. thats when i realized he was driving a grocery cart with a jacobs radial engine.

Seemed like more than that at the time. But in all honesty that was the first time I actually experienced first had what I teach about the crosswind gear.

 

[KennyFlys]

I know lots of folks who advocate this technique, but I don't see the attraction of it. I prefer to have the slip established well out so that I'm not making significant changes in the aircraft's configuration and flight path on short final.

I like to establish my slip well out on final as well. It gives me more time to feel what the wind is doing to my airplane.

As far as flaps go, it depends on the gust factor and the airplane. If the gust factor is high, I want to get on the ground quickly and keep my time in the flair to a minimum, this typically means only 20 degrees of flaps in the 172, because 30 degrees float with a good wind.

Students have asked me about kicking out the crab earlier. My explanation starts with a question about slips. The thing that makes a slip so effective is you're killing efficiency of both lift and thrust. If you have to go around, you suddenly have to come out of the slip and add power. That creates a delay. Albeit, not much of a delay in a slow, small airplane, but a delay. Add to that some pilots are not going to react very quickly to some circumstances which may require a go-around.

Another aspect is added power that may be used in that inefficient flight attitude. That's power you don't have in reserve should you suddenly need to change the attitude and go around. This is also a reason to approach nose down, not flat like I see so many do.

So, I teach to kick in the rudder pretty much at the last possible moment, usually about fifteen to twenty feet above the runway.

 

[jesse]

Students have asked me about kicking out the crab earlier. My explanation starts with a question about slips. The thing that makes a slip so effective is you're killing efficiency of both lift and thrust. If you have to go around, you suddenly have to come out of the slip and add power. That creates a delay. Albeit, not much of a delay in a slow, small airplane, but a delay. Add to that some pilots are not going to react very quickly to some circumstances which may require a go-around.

Another aspect is added power that may be used in that inefficient flight attitude. That's power you don't have in reserve should you suddenly need to change the attitude and go around. This is also a reason to approach nose down, not flat like I see so many do.

So, I teach to kick in the rudder pretty much at the last possible moment, usually about fifteen to twenty feet above the runway.

With all due respect Kenny I doubt people will get very good at it when you teach it like that. Plus they might be needlessly afraid of the slip.

If they need to go around they apply power and relieve rudder pressure. It's not a big problem. The only point where it is more tricky is at about 5' if they had to execute a go-around. Either way, they'd be in that slip at 5'. Otherwise doing the go-around at 300 AGL won't matter slip or not.

There is nothing wrong with crabbing and then slipping at 5FT AGL. But in order to actually land the airplane well like that you need to really understand and feel the airplane.

I hate the term 'crab and kick' because I've seen guys like this and they crab to 5 feet and then just stomp the rudder like an idiot and touch-down with very little directional control and needless sideload. One day they go off the runway into the trees.

 

[silver-eagle]

I use both. It sort of depends on how it feels. I find slips easier but stay practiced with both.

 

[Everskyward]

I hate the term 'crab and kick'

I do too because "kick" implies that it is an abrupt maneuver. I think of it more like putting pressure on the rudder to swing the nose around. I think it's easier for students to transition from crab to wing down pretty far out. As someone else mentioned, it allows them to be stabilized for the last part of the final. As a pilot gets more experience they can delay the transition until later. I don't see any problems from going around from a slip. It takes only a second to release the controls.

 

[spiderweb]

I don't "let out" the crab until I'm in the flare. Easier to fly that way, and it was the way I was taught, so it never seemed hard. You may wish to ask the aircraft's tires, however, if they agree with me.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

scott im with you. the reason the other guy landed nosewheel first is because he was touching down too fast. or vice versa. either way speed on touchdown is rarely a good thing.

I dunno about that. I found that (with good Cleveland toe brakes) coming in hot and making wheel landing works very well in a crosswind. You don't spend any time floating above the runway where the wind can kick you out of shape. And, if you plant the mains well, the brakes to a great job of keeping you lined up with the centerline.

Of course, if you are stuck with a nosewheel, you don't have that option ;-

 

[poadeleted20]

If you have to go around, you suddenly have to come out of the slip and add power. That creates a delay.

It's insignificant.

 

[tonycondon]

I dunno about that. I found that (with good Cleveland toe brakes) coming in hot and making wheel landing works very well in a crosswind. You don't spend any time floating above the runway where the wind can kick you out of shape. And, if you plant the mains well, the brakes to a great job of keeping you lined up with the centerline.

Of course, if you are stuck with a nosewheel, you don't have that option ;-

yea thats a recipe for a new firewall in a nosedragger

 

[flyersfan31]

Scott - everything you do sounds right to me. Don't forget there are a lot of bozos in the air.

As for me, I keep the crab to maybe 200ft above the runway, just a bit out from the threshold, only because it's easier on the leg then keeping rudder pressure to keep the nose down the centerline for an extended period. I've done it both ways, kinda depends on my mood. When I really feel zippy I do the last second "kick-out" (and haven't landed in the woods yet!)

 

[jesse]

I dunno about that. I found that (with good Cleveland toe brakes) coming in hot and making wheel landing works very well in a crosswind. You don't spend any time floating above the runway where the wind can kick you out of shape. And, if you plant the mains well, the brakes to a great job of keeping you lined up with the centerline.

Of course, if you are stuck with a nosewheel, you don't have that option ;-

You also 'fly' the airplane the entire time until you get out of the thing. That is the important part that really makes it work.

The nosewheel really doesn't let you fly it with the same level of control with the wheels down and most nosewheel pilots become car drivers as soon as they hear "squeek'.

 

[gismo]

I know lots of folks who advocate this technique, but I don't see the attraction of it. I prefer to have the slip established well out so that I'm not making significant changes in the aircraft's configuration and flight path on short final.

First of all, in strong winds it's likely (but not guaranteed) that the winds will not be as strong close to the runway as they are even 100 AGL and if the wind is at all gusty, you'll have to make "significant changes" on short final. Second, the reason that you can handle stronger crosswind components when you "kick out" as late as possible is because this allows you to use the inertia of the airplane to your advantage. When you straighten out the plane it will take several seconds to build any noticeable lateral speed even if you don't have enough rudder to counteract the crosswind with full deflection. Done properly you will have at least one tire (hopefully not the nosewheel!) on the ground before there's enough drift to create any more side load than you'll have as you roll down the runway.

That said, it does take some practice to get the timing right and as long as you have enough control authority to slip all the way in, there's not much advantage to the kick out method (the two potential advantages are that it's kinder to pax and offers less chance of unporting the fuel outlet in your tank if only one is selected.

But you can teach yourself the proper timing by practicing when the crosswind isn't near your personal limits.

 

[KennyFlys]

With all due respect Kenny I doubt people will get very good at it when you teach it like that. Plus they might be needlessly afraid of the slip.

If they need to go around they apply power and relieve rudder pressure. It's not a big problem. The only point where it is more tricky is at about 5' if they had to execute a go-around. Either way, they'd be in that slip at 5'. Otherwise doing the go-around at 300 AGL won't matter slip or not.

There is nothing wrong with crabbing and then slipping at 5FT AGL. But in order to actually land the airplane well like that you need to really understand and feel the airplane.

I hate the term 'crab and kick' because I've seen guys like this and they crab to 5 feet and then just stomp the rudder like an idiot and touch-down with very little directional control and needless sideload. One day they go off the runway into the trees.

A student's initial attempt at slipping is at altitude. I'll have them start around 4,000 and slip both left and right alternately in 500 feet segments down to 2,000.

I understand the word "kick" isn't favorable. I picked it up with a 77 captain a couple years ago who helped me finish the commercial ticket. Oddly, I rarely use it with students and that's probably because I have to show them it's not right rudder and suddenly having to use left rudder. It could be just using less right rudder input. In other words, I have them sense the pressure with the other foot but not force against the other foot through the peddles.

I use the word "crab" but explain it's just a long-used term for letting the plane weather vane into the wind. We do it on departure, en route and on approach. Let the plane fly in its natural form and use rudder accordingly.

 

[tonycondon]

I usually dont mention the word slip, kick, or anything like that when teaching crosswind landings. I teach the manuever as a completely reactionary process, because thats what it is.

As we come down final i note that the nose is not aligned with the runway. Instruction is to use rudder as needed to parallel the nose to the runway. Then of course we start to drift, so I instruct to bank as needed to eliminate drift. Then I mention that a crosswind condition is never constant, and as you flare speed is changing, so control inputs should constantly be changing. It helps a lot if we can get out in some good crosswinds where they can see me demonstrate the dance that it takes to handle a 15 knot plus crosswind component, and get a feel for what full control deflection feels like.

 

[KennyFlys]

You also 'fly' the airplane the entire time until you get out of the thing. That is the important part that really makes it work.

The nosewheel really doesn't let you fly it with the same level of control with the wheels down and most nosewheel pilots become car drivers as soon as they hear "squeek'.

Which is a good reason to keep the nose up there until it falls through on its own. Even when it does, keep the back pressure in and use aerodynamic breaking.

In a strong cross wind, I make them aware of the difference between having speed and rudder authority versus the nose touching down at lower speeds; and possibly having a much greater grip on the runway while that peddle was making use of the rudder just moments earlier.

As far as I'm concerned, if there is a squeak on the nosewheel, a small plane is still going too fast and the nose was likely forced down rather than letting it fall through on its own.

 

[KennyFlys]

I usually dont mention the word slip, kick, or anything like that when teaching crosswind landings. I teach the manuever as a completely reactionary process, because thats what it is.

As we come down final i note that the nose is not aligned with the runway. Instruction is to use rudder as needed to parallel the nose to the runway. Then of course we start to drift, so I instruct to bank as needed to eliminate drift. Then I mention that a crosswind condition is never constant, and as you flare speed is changing, so control inputs should constantly be changing. It helps a lot if we can get out in some good crosswinds where they can see me demonstrate the dance that it takes to handle a 15 knot plus crosswind component, and get a feel for what full control deflection feels like.

I like that you feel that way. I've seen many schools that will cut out flights when cross winds get past 15 knots. It needs to be practiced because you can't always predict and certainly not control what winds will do when you get to a destination 200 miles away. We limit solo flight but no restrictions with an instructor.

Cross wind landings is a dance with the wind; a constant change. That's why I previously said it's a balance made often with just one foot not between both. If the wind is constant enough, put the rudder in and vary the aileron. If it takes more of both, use it. Basically, whatever input it takes to maintain alignment with the centerline and stay over the top of it.

I'd have to agree with the use of words. They are often misused. Slowly, I'm changing how I use different words such as I don't say "push the nose over", particularly with stalls or descents. It's reduce the pitch, simple as that.

 

[tonycondon]

its not just a balance of feet, but a dance of feet along with aileron in put from neutral to the stop, and maybe back. and dont forget to flare no wonder most students who are making decent landings regress to flat landings when getting into crosswinds. they're overloaded enough with the crosswind correction they just simply forget to flare.