Cross country question

[american-pilot]

Does the X-country nm distance include a return distance?
How much time do you have between legs before it counts as a separate trip?
Thanks!

 

[american-pilot]

And would you recommend flying a 300 nm trip in the morning, and a 300 nm trip back for PPL

 

[BalooAirService]

A to B over 50nm is a XC.
B back to A would also be a XC.
Above is a XC round trip and you would total the time in your logbook.
not sure what you mean by return distance. Two points 50nm apart straight line distance is a XC for airplanes and I think 25nm for heli's.
Im also not sure what you mean about specifically 300nm trip. Thats a long trip. The comm XC I think is 250nm for one leg straight line distance.
You also didn't state if your a student going on his solo XCs or a rated pilot.

hope this helps.

 

[mscard88]

If you'

Does the X-country nm distance include a return distance?
How much time do you have between legs before it counts as a separate trip?
Thanks!

Unsure of what exactly you're asking but sure, a XC could include a return distance or you can also log it as a separate XC leg. Either way. Nothing in the regs concerning time between legs.

You have a PPC, so I don't know why you're asking about a 300 mile leg to, and 300 back. You're the pilot, that's your decision. Personally I flew from NJ to AL, around 8-900 miles, within a few weeks of getting my PPC, and a week or so later the same XC reversed AL to NJ. So I see no big deal with a 300 or even longer XC.

 

[iflyvfr]

Depending on the plane and the workload. Autopilot is going to make it easier while hand flying likely more fatiguing. If you flew a slow 172 (like mine) 300 NMs in the AM, spent the day doing whatever, it would be a long flight home that evening. Certainly doable, but do consider your fitness & fatigue. Back in '09 we flew home from Sun-N-Fun in one day. About 720 Nms. I was pretty well cooked by the time I landed.

 

[RyanB]

The 50nm counts for one way, A-B.

Doesn't matter how much time elapses once you land. If you fly one leg on day 1 and the return leg on day 2 you can just log two separate entries, if it's all done in the same day just make one entry.

 

[flyingron]

No, for most things a XC counts as long as SOME airport you landed at is more than 50 NM away. It doesn't necessarily have to be the final one.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Does the X-country nm distance include a return distance?
How much time do you have between legs before it counts as a separate trip?
Thanks!

I'm one of those who also doesn't understand the question and more specifically what you mean by "include a return distance." Here is what the applicable portion of actual reg say about cross countries in airplanes:

Cross-country time means—

(ii) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements ... for a private pilot certificate a commercial pilot certificate, or an instrument rating, or for the purpose of exercising recreational pilot privileges ... , time acquired during a flight—

(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;

(B) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.​

Reading that and assuming it is in the English language (albeit a bit stilted), does it help answer your question?

 

[midlifeflyer]

And would you recommend flying a 300 NM trip in the morning, and a 300 NM trip back for PPL

Strikes me as a bit aggressive. My long solo cross country was a round robin that involved 3 airports in addition to my home base. The furthest point of landing was about 145 NM away from my original point of departure. The total airport to airport straight line route was 298 nm. That distance does not include my diversion from my originally-planned return route due to unforecast weather. I was absolutely exhausted at the end of the flight, especially given the need for the enroute decision whether and where to divert.

I can't imagine trying to double that distance at this stage of piloting. And, as a CFI, if a student asked me to sign off on it, I probably would not unless the circumstances were exceptional.

 

[midlifeflyer]

How much time do you have between legs before it counts as a separate trip?

Figured this one needed a separate post. A canned one I've used before, so it's mostly a cut and paste:

Rule of thumb: unless you are being ridiculous, what you consider to be a cross country flight is pretty much up to you.

The old, orphaned, disowned Part 61 FAQ answered this type of question with "The 'original point of departure' for the purpose of a cross country does not change with a new day or delay."

More recently, in 2009, in answering a number of question questions about cross country logging (mostly regarding safety pilot scenarios), the FAA Chief Counsel made the following observation in response to a question about repositioning fights:

There is nothing in § 61.1(b)(3)(ii) or previous FAA interpretations dictating how separate flights must be logged. Accordingly, the pilot may choose what is considered a discreet flight and what is merely a segment of a flight, and then log that time appropriately when the flight is conducted. Section 61.1(b)(3)(ii) requires that the flight include a landing at a point other than the point of departure.
===
[2009 Glenn Interpretation](http://bit.ly/2ct04o2)​

To me, it's about goal and intent and where and when that changes. The goal and intent of a cross country flight (plain English) is to go to a destination. Activities involved in doing that are part and parcel of of that process.

So, for example, my commercial solo cross country involved a 2-day trip in which I diverted overnight for weather. The goal was a flight to the final destination, so that was my cross country "flight." Having to divert or even make a planned stop overnight to rest. Change that stop to a 3 day planned vacation, and I would personally consider that it broke the chain of a single flight, although I wouldn't argue with with anyone who thought it was still part of the same "flight".

What is "ridiculous"? I'm not aware of anything by way of example from the FAA. It's just a sense that, as in other areas, the FAA may look at a scenario and say, "that's a sham" (nice way of saying "that's BS"). So I guess you'll know it when you see it.

 

[Blindrage]

Here was my example and how my CFI had me log things.

I had to do some training with another instructor at the end of my PPL before the checkride. That trainer is based at another location which is 47 miles away. She signed me off to go there, but I could not count the trip as a XC because the straight line distance did not meet the 50NM requirement.

I asked if I could take an out of the way route to get there that extended the distance to greater than 50NM, but she said that would not work. As measured on a map it was 48NM, and unless I picked another airport that was greater than 50NM as a point on the trip it could not count as XC.

So one way straight line on the map must be 50NM or greater to any airport you land at during your flight to count as XC. So you could go 40 north of home, and them fly from there to 40 south of your home, the return to home... and sign the log as the first leg from home to 40 north as just a flight. Then from 40 north, to 40south, to home as a XC flight because you would be flying 80NM for that first leg from 40north to 40south.

Stupid rules, but that is how it was explained to me.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Here was my example and how my CFI had me log things...
So one way straight line on the map must be 50NM or greater to any airport you land at during your flight to count as XC. So you could go 40 north of home, and them fly from there to 40 south of your home, the return to home... and sign the log as the first leg from home to 40 north as just a flight. Then from 40 north, to 40south, to home as a XC flight because you would be flying 80NM for that first leg from 40north to 40south.

Stupid rules, but that is how it was explained to me.

Of course, those are not the actual rules for logging cross country. They work if you specifically need a stop 50 nm away from somewhere for the flight to count against the required XC for a private ticket, but every leg you list above can be logged as cross country since there is no minimum distance requirement for logging cross country.

 

[MAKG1]

Of course, those are not the actual rules for logging cross country. They work if you specifically need a stop 50 nm away from somewhere for the flight to count against the required XC for a private ticket, but every leg you list above can be logged as cross country since there is no minimum distance requirement for logging cross country.

It's true, but why would you need to log cross country if it were not for a certificate or rating? FYI, it's not just the private pilot certificate.

You can log 5 mile cross countries, but all you'll do is make IACRA a total pain in the butt, with no benefit.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Of course, those are not the actual rules for logging cross country. They work if you specifically need a stop 50 nm away from somewhere for the flight to count against the required XC for a private ticket, but every leg you list above can be logged as cross country since there is no minimum distance requirement for logging cross country.

Yeah, there are multiple definitions of what a cross country is but they are all based on what you want to count them for.

Unless you are planning for a Part 135 job and need those cross countries to the airport 4 NM away, there's not much use for them and they should probably (for efficient bookkeeping) be logged in a separate column from the ones you will need to point to to satisfy a DPE the requirements were met for a private or commercial certificate and an instrument rating, and really to a large degree, the ATP (except no landing is required).

OH, BTW, if we want to play technicalities, It's not "50 NM or greater" or "at least 50 NM." " It's "more than 50 NM"

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

It's true, but why would you need to log cross country if it were not for a certificate or rating? FYI, it's not just the private pilot certificate.

You can log 5 mile cross countries, but all you'll do is make IACRA a total pain in the butt, with no benefit.

Fine. But if you want to log a "short" XC or not, it's a personal preference, I was just pointing out that it's not a regulation.

Personally, if it's cross country, I put the numbers in the cross country column. No real benefit, but no down side (to me) either.

 

[mscard88]

Personally, if it's cross country, I put the numbers in the cross country column. No real benefit, but no down side (to me) either.

Yep, been doing the same for 40 years. If it's a XC it's going in the XC column.