crash in Alaska - impressive wreckage location

Sierra Victor said:
So my experience is wrong?! Wow I guess I need medical help.

Why are you so defensive about it? I’ve cited my personal experience without, I hope, inflicting any negative connotations other than the facts as I saw them. Yet you attack my credibility.
David you’re an ass. Best of luck up there in AK, fat dumb and happy
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Your “experience” isn’t “experience” at all, it is a completely uninformed opinion. I’ve flown full time up here for 5 years.

Atleast you have a higher opinion of me than I do of you!
 
olasek said:
4 Polish tourists and the pilot perished on Aug 4 in Denali, Alaska after a pilot of a de Havilland Beaver flew into the side of the mountain in bad weather. The pilot who had 40 years experience flying in Alaska survived the crash and was able to make a phone call asking for help. The help arrived 2 days later (due to weather) and someone suspended from a helicopter determined everybody was dead. Due to extreme location, avalanche danger there are no current plans to retrieve the bodies.

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/R...D=20180805X60932&AKey=1&RType=Prelim&IType=FA


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WOW unbelievable
 
Most lodge operators are not 135. In fact when the FAA suggested that they be forced into part 135 about 20 years ago they met with almost unanimous objection in the aviation community. That said, I have several lodge owner friends and more hunting and fishing guide friends and every one of them is part 91 commercial rated and insured as a commercial operator. Not air taxi.

I'm working at Lake Hood this morning. It's a normal busy day. The 135 operators here are using 206s and Beavers primarily. Rust's has one Caravan, the only one on the lake.
 
Stewartb said:
Not air taxi.
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So that’s how they are getting around it?
So as an Air Taxi they can transport paying passengers w/o commercial?

That would explain it. I make no judgements for or against a pilot being required to be 135 rated. Matters to me none. What does matter is experience. I’ve flown into some hell holes up there in cubs, cessnas and stinsons and so far, knock on wood,always been impressed.
 
The lodge operators who do not utilize 135s for their clients are usually a whole lot choosier about who they hire and those are usually some pretty sought after positions.
 
Sierra Victor said:
So that’s how they are getting around it?
So as an Air Taxi they can transport paying passengers w/o commercial?

That would explain it. I make no judgements for or against a pilot being required to be 135 rated. Matters to me none. What does matter is experience. I’ve flown into some hell holes up there in cubs, cessnas and stinsons and so far, knock on wood,always been impressed.
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No, the opposite. Unless you are staying at Bubba Gump Shrimp co lodge you will not be flown around by anyone without a commercial and instrument. I would advise you to book with one of the operators I mentioned to you. I know all of them personally and can vouch they are all very experienced pilots
 
DavidWhite said:
Your “experience” isn’t “experience” at all, it is a completely uninformed opinion. I’ve flown full time up here for 5 years.

Atleast you have a higher opinion of me than I do of you!
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It’s not an uninformed opinion!!
I’m sitting right seat in a single engine airplane that I’ve hired to fly me into hunting camp in Alaska and I ask the pilot, “ are you commercially rated or have an IR?” He says no.
Why would I make it up? I have no axe to grind.
This has happened on multiple occasions. No biggie to me! They were better pilots than I’ll ever be.

Maybe they were operating as Air Taxis. Might explain it

Still don’t know why your so defensive about it? Are you on the board of Alaska Tourism or something? Geez
 
How in the hell did you find someone like that to take you flying? Those types of people certainly don’t advertise that. Maybe the dude was being a smartass. There is no legal way to be hired as a pilot without a commercial.
 
DavidWhite said:
How in the hell did you find someone like that to take you flying? Those types of people certainly don’t advertise that. Maybe the dude was being a smartass. There is no legal way to be hired as a pilot without a commercial.
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They own their own airplanes genius!!

I give up

Edit to add: drum roll please......THEYRE NOT LEGAL!!!
(Unless the air taxi thing circumvents it)
 
Sierra Victor said:
They own their own airplanes genius!!

I give up
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Right, how did you locate these people? Were they advertising their services? Was this back when dinosaurs roamed the earth or recently?
 
@Zeldman have you ever heard of someone without a commercial or instrument rating carryinf pax for hire?
 
You apparently don’t have a clue about how hunting operations work do? I’m also guessing you’re somewhat young.
Suggest you look into the hunting side of the aviation business up there in AK.
I’m not saying all outfits do it and I’m sure it’s getting more regulated but five years ago (my last trip) I met more than a couple pilots flying for outfitters that were VFR only. Has the industry cleaned itself up entirely in those last five years? I doubt it but I’ll find out in November.
 
If air transportation is coincidental to their operation they don't have to operate as commercial transporters. I've heard of guides doing that but don't know any. My guide friends are and use commercial pilots. Packers might fly themselves and gear but not clients. These guys have big investments in their operations so have too much to lose. A single guide? They may do things differently.

135 is more stringent than Part 91 commercial.
 
Sierra Victor said:
I doubt it but I’ll find out in November.
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If you travel with one of the outfits I ever so graciously recommended to you I guarantee you will be flying with a Commercial and Instrument rated pilot. There’s also a couple single-pilot 135s that I can’t remember the names of.

I’ve packed out plenty of moose and elk and bears from airports that aren’t on the map.
 
Sierra Victor said:
My God man!! I worked the ramp in Bethel back in the 80s. It was the Wild West.
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I would think it would be the Wild Bush, or the Wild Northwest, but I have not been to Alaska yet, so I have no experience. (I do have my uninformed opinion, though.)

Back on topic, it was sad to see people die in a crash, and sad to see one more Beaver get destroyed.
 
Maybe I’m a bit odd in how I view things but let me throw another viewpoint into this conversation. First, I am just a private pilot without IR and only have about 500 hours total time. I do have my ASEL, AMEL, ASES, and Glider ratings so I do have some variety of flight experiences. My only flying around big rocks were the Cajon and Banning passes and Big Bear in SoCal. Not very risky. I am also an A&P with a considerable amount of experience on Part 121 jets which included a lot of flights in the cockpit observer seats. With those experiences, I’d be far quicker to analyze and even second guess a major airline pilot before I would someone flying GA or 135 in Alaska. In fact I doubt if I would even begin to do so. Sure if I knew that really poor meteorological conditions existed around the mountains up there and a pilot departed into it, I might question his decision making. But unless it was an obvious pre departure poor decision rather than changing conditions in an environment that I lack personal knowledge of, I’d opt for the STFU option. I defer to those who are actually doing it for a living up there. @Zeldman, @Stewartb, @DavidWhite, and those with similar experiences, knowledge, and skill; rock on. You guys have my respect.
 
The flight was operated by K2 Aviation, their website looks highly professional, their Tripadvisor rating is just spectacular.
 
Didn't mean to start a fight. Sad that people lost their lives. The Beaver pilot may have been a great pilot, but he hit a 20,000 foot mountain that has been there for millions of years. That just shouldn't happen.
 
They hit Thunder Mountain, which is not higher than slightly above 11,000', about 14 miles from Denali, they actually hit it just below its ridge. The pilot's name is Craig Layson.
 
DavidWhite said:
An opinion rooted in baffling ignorance. These are all TAWS equipped aircraft and many do have SV on board. If you want to understand flying in Alaska come do it for a summer.
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What would be a typical synthetic vision setup in a part 135 Otter ?
 
weilke said:
What would be a typical synthetic vision setup in a part 135 Otter ?
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Chelton Capstone is what most 135 aircraft in Alaska have. I have over 2000 hrs behind this system. Very capable, but just like any avionics, you need to know how to use it. A common problem is that pilots turn off the TAWS system and hit something they might have been warned about.

 
Kenny Phillips said:
And some planes (Cirrus, for example) have infrared cameras as an option, that can penetrate clouds and some types of precipitation and give you a view of your surroundings. (This was first tested in the 1950s, Sperry tried to commercialize it in the 1960s, so it's nothing new.)
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I can’t tell you the number of times my brother and I have told my dad about some “new” technology that we have and then he goes on to say something like, “back in the 50’s and 60’s we were already doing stuff like that.....”. Based on what he has told us, it appears everything that could ever be invented was already invented in the 50s/60s. It has gotten to the point that everytime we hear of some new discovery or invention, we just joke and say, ahh, they were already doing that in the 50s/60s....it has become a family joke. Anyway, it sounds to me I missed out on an imporant time frame. ;)
 
Rockymountain said:
Not being critical of people flying VFR all over Alaska in appropriate weather like your beautiful cub. Just saying if you are carrying passengers for hire, the standard should be higher. The number of high profile and tragic CFIT crashes out there is unacceptable in my opinion. How many just this year? Not to mention losing an aviation proponent, Senator Ted Stevens, the same Ted Stevens that the Anchorage International airport was named after, with pilots flying perfectly good aircraft into terrain. I was flying out of Ketchikan one day and a revenue Otter was flying "VFR" over the airport. Just right after that, I took off on the instrument departure and was IMC before the gear were up. Center advises me of a VFR target ahead and to my left. Really?? VFR. Told them I couldn't see them because we were both in the clouds. Whatever ;-) Thank goodness for TCAS.
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So the Ted Stevens crash that killed him was likely a medical event that affected the pilot. If you read the NTSB report, (pretty lengthy) the official answer is we don’t know, but likely was some sort of medical event. Pilot, singular, was one of Alaska air’s most experienced captain since retired and flying for the lodge. It was a part 91 op. He had all the bells and whistles including a radar alt. I have first hand personal knowledge of this accident. And a number of others.

I don’t doubt that their might be someone running around flying with out a license, but you have to look pretty hard for one who’s running a biz. And if you want to know, go look them up on the FAA website. Not foolproof, but you can find most of them there.


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I don't believe any of the survivor's stories indicated Terry was incapacitated. Did I miss something? Distraught? That may have played a role. The reason he was out there at all was to work through the recent high profile death of his son in law. That poor family. Terry was a great guy.
 
The best guess is that he had some level of altered level of consciousness (ALOC) just before the crash. The doc who was at the lodge same time and also was at the crash site seems to think so. Whether it was related to previous medical history, some other medical problem, or simply zoning out while cruising along we’ll never know for sure. The guy riding shotgun (who survived) was asleep at the time of the crash, even though departure was not long before.

My theory, based on looking at the crash site and some educated SWAGs, is that they were cruising along level and intercepted the ridge line at an angle. I think the Radar alt went off and semi woke him out of the ALOC. If he pulled hard back and left as I think most pilots would in a normal reaction, that took them straight into the mountain, where they ended up. Back and right would have been better, but in an altered mental state, or if you were just out of it, was unlikely to go right. Of course, this is all my theory. And NTSB wrote 80ish pages to say we don’t know what happened.

And I only met the family in the aftermath, but they are some pretty good people.

But back to the original point, while I’m not saying there are not any cowboys in AK, most of the operators and lodge owners in AK are not running shady ops, even if someone doesn’t like they way they operate, because “we’d never do that where I’m from.”


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FWIW, "ALOC" is a term used when we are talking about G induced loss of consciousness.....specifically "almost loss of consciousness" (a shorter duration variant of GLOC). Not likely in the case of Ted Stevens.
 
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