crash in Alaska - impressive wreckage location

olasek

olasek

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olasek
4 Polish tourists and the pilot perished on Aug 4 in Denali, Alaska after a pilot of a de Havilland Beaver flew into the side of the mountain in bad weather. The pilot who had 40 years experience flying in Alaska survived the crash and was able to make a phone call asking for help. The help arrived 2 days later (due to weather) and someone suspended from a helicopter determined everybody was dead. Due to extreme location, avalanche danger there are no current plans to retrieve the bodies.

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/R...D=20180805X60932&AKey=1&RType=Prelim&IType=FA


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When I saw that shot, the first thing that came to mind were the pictures of the Sukhoi flown into the side of Mount Salak in 2012.
 
How about the park ranger who checked for survivors hanging from a helicopter sling? That dude's got some huevos!
 
At least they found it. When airplanes do that the ice and snow often break loose and slide, taking the airplane along and burying it deep for decades. Might never be seen again. There are many, many airplanes that have gone missing in the mountains and never found.
 
Based on the picture alone, I don't believe that the plane hit higher on a flatter surface and backslid into the current position. To me, it looks like the plane came in from the right to the left (fat arrow), hit the snow drift with the right wingtip first and pivoted into the wall snapping off the empenage.

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Silvaire said:
How about the park ranger who checked for survivors hanging from a helicopter sling? That dude's got some huevos!
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from NTSB:
e. Subsequently, an NPS mountain rescue ranger was able to access the accident site utilizing a technique known as a short-haul, which allows transport of rescue personnel to otherwise inaccessible sites while suspended beneath a helicopter using a long-line.
 
Tough deal. Tough way to die. One of the bodies is in the back section. 4 are up front. I'd like to see them pull it free so it falls and they can recover bodies. Winter is setting in up there. They may never see it again. On the other hand, it isn't a bad place to spend eternity. Hearts of all Alaskan pilots are broken, because we all know it could've been us.
 
Flying in Alaska freaks me out. My wife is from Soldotna. Going up there in a few weeks (Labor Day week) and I’m supposed to go up in a Super Cub. Place seems mighty dangerous.

RIP to these folks.
 
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Makes me sad to learn of this loss of life.

I flew tours around Mt. McKinley one summer. The absolute most beautiful flying I ever did anywhere. But you have to learn to read the mountain and the weather. The wind can be fierce in one place and calm in the next place. And the weather can change as you watch it. Several times I flew through a pass, then looked back behind me and the pass was closed off.

I never learned in flight school that it would be possible to fly at 10,000 msl and still have 10,000 of mountain above me, and that I would have to watch out for snow slides at that altitude.
 
CC268 said:
Flying in Alaska freaks me out. My wife is from Soldotna. Going up there in a few weeks (Labor Day week) and I’m supposed to go up in a Super Cub. Place seems mighty dangerous.
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I have around 7000 hours flying in Alaska, I never bent any aluminum. Flying in Alaska is not inherently dangerous but it can be unforgiving of any carelessness or incapacity. I would teach new comers to be aware of their ability, know the airplanes abilities and to never go into a situation without having a way out. I learned a LOT about flying when I was in Alaska. I even broke my rules a few times, but I was lucky and survived. Flying for a living in Alaska can be very boring at times, and very exciting at times, and terrifying at times. I can't tell you how many times I landed, shaking so bad I needed help to stand, then an hour later back into the crap I go.

And yes, as MauleSkinner said, amazing how many planes are found just a couple hundred feet below the top.... lots of planes with bones inside on that mountain and glaciers.
 
I took the full tour in a Talkeetna Air Beaver a few years back on a stunningly clear and smooth day. The scale of those mountains seems impossible to fathom, when you see another tiny airplane in the distance it kind of sets in but no, you still don’t get it. Not really.
 
Zeldman said:
I have around 7000 hours flying in Alaska, I never bent any aluminum. Flying in Alaska is not inherently dangerous but it can be unforgiving of any carelessness or incapacity. I would teach new comers to be aware of their ability, know the airplanes abilities and to never go into a situation without having a way out. I learned a LOT about flying when I was in Alaska. I even broke my rules a few times, but I was lucky and survived. Flying for a living in Alaska can be very boring at times, and very exciting at times, and terrifying at times. I can't tell you how many times I landed, shaking so bad I needed help to stand, then an hour later back into the crap I go.

And yes, as MauleSkinner said, amazing how many planes are found just a couple hundred feet below the top.... lots of planes with bones inside on that mountain and glaciers.
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As an experienced Alaskan aviator, how does this happen? I’m certainly not asking you to speculate on this particular accident, but you see it reasonably often I assume. Is it flying into weather while not aware of terrain? Sub par, tribal maintenance in Alaska? Or other???
 
Anyone know why the discoloration on the fuselage ?
 
F0314A45-0272-4809-B86C-D11EE2681E60.jpeg Discoloration of a red and white airplane? Snow and frost. The pictures you’re seeing were days after the accident in windy sub zero temps and after 2’ of snow had fallen.

Here’s a pic taken by another air service. It’s reportedly the same area at approximately the same time of the crash but taken from a higher altitude. Clouds move over ridges very quickly. Turbulence and down drafts are common. Being in the wrong place at the wrong time? Bad luck. The armchair experts who’ve never done any mountain flying will say bad planning. It isn’t lost on me that there’s a big rock wall to the right of the accident and the plane hit a crevasse on the left of a featureless snowfield. A dark spot can look different in fuzzy conditions when depth perception is distorted. Like a clear passage around a big obstacle. We’ll never know if the plane was in a turn or in a full power climb or straight and level, or if the engine was running at all. I’ll remain respectful and assume the pilot did the best he could in the conditions he was dealt.
 
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Kritchlow said:
As an experienced Alaskan aviator, how does this happen? I’m certainly not asking you to speculate on this particular accident, but you see it reasonably often I assume. Is it flying into weather while not aware of terrain? Sub par, tribal maintenance in Alaska? Or other???
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Over confidence, bad luck, loss of situational awareness, a little of all, maybe none of it. I am taking a wild guess but at the time of the accident it might have been snowing just enough to create the flat lighting issue known as white out. Possibly they were following the glacier and made a wrong turn. I have no idea. I can only speculate.

I wish I could say my superior aviation skills, way above average intellect and awesome good looks is what kept me safe in Alaska, but several times luck had something to do with it.
 
Kritchlow said:
Sub par, tribal maintenance in Alaska
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Actually maintenance was one of the least of my worries in Alaska.

I only met one mechanic that needs to be removed from working on airplanes, and he is in Alaska.
 
Seems to me, especially for paying passengers that they should be required to fly equipment with synthetic vision. So many CFITs in Alaska. Just silly when there is technology out there that makes it near impossible to hit a mountain unintentionally, and they don't use it. Not like any of those mountains have moved significantly in the last 100 years. I think it is kind of a cowboy mentality. "That is just the way we do it out here." As long as they tell that to the passengers I'm OK with it. Our planes are 70 years old, not certified to fly in ice, and our pilots are not really not that good flying IFR, but sometimes we fly in ice and into clouds, at which point you may die... But here sign on the dotted line and have a good time.
 
Stewartb said:
Synthetic vision requires accurate 3D GPS mapping. How accurate is your SV in the Denali area? Bet your life accurate?

https://www.adn.com/aviation/articl...eril-high-tech-fix-gaining-ground/2014/10/15/
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Yes it is. Close enough that if you are within the 30 meter resolution of the Synthetic vision and 3 meter resolution of WAAS GPS, then you are cutting it a little close. Looks just like it does out the window, if you can see out the window. Now the POH will say something to the effect of it not to be used for Navigation or something that the lawyers put in there, I have never seen it off.

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Rockymountain said:
Yes it is. Close enough that if you are within the 3 meter resolution of the Synthetic vision and WAAS GPS, then you are cutting it a little close. Looks just like it does out the window, if you can see out the window. Now the POH will say something to the effect of it not to be used for Navigation or something that the lawyers put in there, I have never seen it off.

View attachment 66410
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And some planes (Cirrus, for example) have infrared cameras as an option, that can penetrate clouds and some types of precipitation and give you a view of your surroundings. (This was first tested in the 1950s, Sperry tried to commercialize it in the 1960s, so it's nothing new.)
 
There you go. You guys should call the FAA and NTSB since you’ve got it figured out. Me? I’ve gotta go change some bad parts on my Cub’s tail. Tribal maintenance, I suppose. Then I’m going flying. In Alaska. My syn vis will be on the G3X like it always is. Not to fly in mountains in IFR, though.
 
Stewartb said:
There you go. You guys should call the FAA and NTSB since you’ve got it figured out. Me? I’ve gotta go change some bad parts on my Cub’s tail. Tribal maintenance, I suppose. Then I’m going flying. In Alaska. My syn vis will be on the G3X like it always is. Not to fly in mountains in IFR, though.
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Not being critical of people flying VFR all over Alaska in appropriate weather like your beautiful cub. Just saying if you are carrying passengers for hire, the standard should be higher. The number of high profile and tragic CFIT crashes out there is unacceptable in my opinion. How many just this year? Not to mention losing an aviation proponent, Senator Ted Stevens, the same Ted Stevens that the Anchorage International airport was named after, with pilots flying perfectly good aircraft into terrain. I was flying out of Ketchikan one day and a revenue Otter was flying "VFR" over the airport. Just right after that, I took off on the instrument departure and was IMC before the gear were up. Center advises me of a VFR target ahead and to my left. Really?? VFR. Told them I couldn't see them because we were both in the clouds. Whatever ;-) Thank goodness for TCAS.
 
I recall a flight on the south side of Denali where I got caught in an updraft followed by a downdraft. Out of nowhere, smooth ride to scared the plane would come apart. Full power Vx climb and I was descending at a rate way off the scale of my 2000fpm VSI. If a ridge had been there? There would have been nothing I could have done about it.

The comments about CFIT are premature.
 
Rockymountain said:
Seems to me, especially for paying passengers that they should be required to fly equipment with synthetic vision. So many CFITs in Alaska. Just silly when there is technology out there that makes it near impossible to hit a mountain unintentionally, and they don't use it. Not like any of those mountains have moved significantly in the last 100 years. I think it is kind of a cowboy mentality. "That is just the way we do it out here." As long as they tell that to the passengers I'm OK with it. Our planes are 70 years old, not certified to fly in ice, and our pilots are not really not that good flying IFR, but sometimes we fly in ice and into clouds, at which point you may die... But here sign on the dotted line and have a good time.
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An opinion rooted in baffling ignorance. These are all TAWS equipped aircraft and many do have SV on board. If you want to understand flying in Alaska come do it for a summer.
 
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We certainly at this point don't know what happened, and will be interesting to see the final report. If he got caught in a downdraft, well that is also a Rookie mountain flyer mistake, there are rules for that as well, such as clear any peak at least 1000 feet for every 10 knots of wind speed at the peak, and always cross a ridge at an angle so that yo can fly away from it if you start getting pushed down. Pilots keep killing themselves the same old ways. We keep doing things the same way, and hope for a different outcome. Let's see how that turns out... Oh wait, I think we have enough history that we can predict the future.
 
There are some unique aspects to flying in Alaska, but there is also a bush-pilot culture that pushes pilots to do things that would not be considered safe in the lower 48. We have plenty of mountains in the lower 48, and while we see too many CFIT's and fatals here as well, usually the same old stupid decision making stuff, the rates are far better than Alaska. Time to change the culture up there, and probably the equipment as well.
 
How do you know anything about the culture or equipment? Have you flown up here other than as a tourist?

I’ve got 3500 hours flying up here. Please tell us what experience your point of view comes from.

There are good operators and bad operators, you can’t paint with such a broad brush. No one flying up here has the intention of waking up for the last time. Like I tell my passengers “I got **** to do tomorrow!”
 
Fact of the matter is most airplanes working in the state aren’t 70 years old. The backbone of the state is the Caravan, lots of operators are running EXs now. I fly for a strictly turbine operator who has glass in all their equipment and we operate IFR most of the time. I even did one of those missed approach things this morning because I’m such a cowboy.
 
DavidWhite said:
Fact of the matter is most airplanes working in the state aren’t 70 years old. The backbone of the state is the Caravan, lots of operators are running EXs now. I fly for a strictly turbine operator who has glass in all their equipment and we operate IFR most of the time. I even did one of those missed approach things this morning because I’m such a cowboy.
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What you’re not mentioning is all the off-grid operators flying for outfitters or lodges. I know several pilots up there that regularly fly for pay with passengers without instrument or commercial tickets.
I’d wager a guess that none of the pilots that have flown me and my family into remote hunting/fishing camps had the proper certifications.
The big companies of course do and are somewhat closely monitored, but for every big operator there are ten (WAG) other outfits transporting paying passengers that have no certifications.
In fact I’m going to Kodiak in November and will probably fly w a VFR-only rated pilot.....for pay!!

Edit to add: NONE of the single piston planes I’ve flown in in AK for hire had SV.
Or any glass for that matter.
Been a few years so I imagine it’s changed a bit.
 
Sierra Victor said:
What you’re not mentioning is all the off-grid operators flying for outfitters or lodges. I know several pilots up there that regularly fly for pay with passengers without instrument or commercial tickets.
I’d wager a guess that none of the pilots that have flown me and my family into remote hunting/fishing camps had the proper certifications.
The big companies of course do and are somewhat closely monitored, but for every big operator there are ten (WAG) other outfits transporting paying passengers that have no certifications.
In fact I’m going to Kodiak in November and will probably fly w a VFR-only rated pilot.....for pay!!
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You are so completely wrong. I flew in Kodiak - if you can’t find a real company to ride with you are more blind than Mr. Magoo.

I have personally never seen an aircraft not on a 135 certificate flying passengers to or from a lodge, or a beach, or a bear view......chances are the pilot that you fly with has several thousand hours and does that job by choice.


You guys are like the “Aviation experts” from the news channels, but worse.
 
If you want to guarantee that the pilot you are flying with has forgotten more about flying you will ever know, contact Seahawk Air, or Kingfisher air, Wattum brothers, or Island Air Service, or Harvey Flying Service. They are all VFR pt 135 (also you still need an instrument rating) and are all blessed in the eyes of the FAA. Also that is every single operator on Kodiak Island who will sell you a seat anywhere.
 
DavidWhite said:
You are so completely wrong. I flew in Kodiak - if you can’t find a real company to ride with you are more blind than Mr. Magoo.

I have personally never seen an aircraft not on a 135 certificate flying passengers to or from a lodge, or a beach, or a bear view......chances are the pilot that you fly with has several thousand hours and does that job by choice.


You guys are like the “Aviation experts” from the news channels, but worse.
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So my experience is wrong?! Wow I guess I need medical help.

Why are you so defensive about it? I’ve cited my personal experience without, I hope, inflicting any negative connotations other than the facts as I saw them. Yet you attack my credibility.
David you’re an ass. Best of luck up there in AK, fat dumb and happy
 
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