Crash at GAI (Gaithersburg, MD)

Bill Watson said:
Ahhh... I call BS.

The logical extension of what you are suggesting is that airport approaches need to be kept clear of any and all human habitation beyond whatever is already required. And that is going to end up shutting down more airports because local majorities will prevail over 'wealthy' airplane hobbyists and private aviation users.

Years ago when we moved from Jersey, where airports were closing down at the rate of 1 per month due to real estate pressures, we decided to move into our airpark partly based on the undevelopable approaches over protected watershed areas. Not only has it worked well but our initial plan to move close to Chapel Hill Airport (KIGX) where this accident flight originated, would have been a failure because that airport is in the process of closing down due to real estate pressures. I knew it was doomed when a subdivision suddenly became visible from the runway. You can tell it is a doomed airport from all the open tie down areas, empty hangars and otherwise dead facility in a prime location.
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The picture you paint, suggests we'll all have to get helicopters.:nonod:
 
ClimbnSink said:
I'm not calling for closure of the airport, just calling out the sentiments of; it is OK they'll be rich, and the idea that they deserved it for living near an airport. Both sick ideas. I shouldn't be surprised, some in this crowd thought that guy and his kid deserved to die for walking on a beach where a plane might need to land.
Understand when they shut our playgrounds down it is because of us, our attitudes and behaviors.
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Thank you, yes, our selfishness is the base of our destructive society, and money makes it all ok.
 
Jaybird180 said:
The picture you paint, suggests we'll all have to get helicopters.:nonod:
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Guys, I don't think I can afford to own and operate a helicopter, we'll have to come up with another solution.

Actually one end of the airport where I hangar my plane is undevelopable, I never thought about it previously, but I guess that's a good attribute.
 
Patriot44 said:
We'll put you in the category of "cold-hearted jerk".

For starters, it's rather presumptuous of you to assume that the surviving family members "will probably want to punish all local pilots because of this." Perhaps you can share the concrete evidence that you have in your possession that the rest of us aren't privy to, and supports your aforementioned half-baked assertion?

Secondly, where exactly have you read that the surviving family members "expect everyone to drop to their knees because you made a mistake?"

Thirdly, in another post, you wrote that "putting yourself and your family in the direct path of the riskiest part of flying is beyond stupid." So please enlighten us all sir - driving a car is much riskier than living in the approach path of an airport - orders of magnitude riskier. I'll go out on a limb and assume that you have at some point in your life driven a car, and in all likelihood, you continue to regularly drive a car. So, by your logic, you must be orders of magnitude beyond stupid, simply because you drive a car.

To say that you don't feel bad for the parents in this case, both living and dead, is pretty cold, and says a lot about you more than anything - so well done on that. What a jerk.
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I didn't say that I didn't feel sorry for the parents, just not as much. I never said the father shouldn't be compensated for his losses, just that he doesn't deserve millions for it. I have avoided homes near runways and I have always been an aviation fan. Common sense to me. Reports said the plane hit 2 houses, are they packed that tight around a runway? Maybe someone should have left a little margin of error for the pre-existing airport? I think the houses are a safety hazard for pilots and should be removed. A nice mowed pasture would be far better should a bird strike or engine failure happens.

Now, I am not saying the pilot is or isn't at fault, don't know all the facts yet. If he is at fault, then his estate should pay. I just don't think one mans poor choice of housing location should make him rich though. Inadvertently his choice cost him his family. 10 miles from the airport would be a whole different story.
 
Bill Watson said:
Ahhh... I call BS.

The logical extension of what you are suggesting is that airport approaches need to be kept clear of any and all human habitation beyond whatever is already required. And that is going to end up shutting down more airports because local majorities will prevail over 'wealthy' airplane hobbyists and private aviation users.
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Not any and all, just not so tightly bunched that close. A couple miles of 3 acre lots in line with the runway would leave a far better chance of no fatalities in the event of a landing or take off problem. I would rather hit fences or a barn than a house if I went down. Maybe the local government and the property developer should be held accountable? Seems like something that should have been thought of to me.
 
SomeTexan said:
Not any and all, just not so tightly bunched that close. A couple miles of 3 acre lots in line with the runway would leave a far better chance of no fatalities in the event of a landing or take off problem. I would rather hit fences or a barn than a house if I went down. Maybe the local government and the property developer should be held accountable? Seems like something that should have been thought of to me.
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I recall the "BS" and call "somewhat naive" as to how real estate development and local governments work. What you say makes some sense but if local government or property developers were somehow held accountable, we'd have many fewer airports and fewer convenient airports.

Sometimes nothing makes sense and innocents die. FITH
 
Bill Watson said:
I recall the "BS" and call "somewhat naive" as to how real estate development and local governments work. What you say makes some sense but if local government or property developers were somehow held accountable, we'd have many fewer airports and fewer convenient airports.

Sometimes nothing makes sense and innocents die. FITH
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So you are saying that the pre-existing airport should be held accountable for some Johnny-come-lately's bad decision? Bad planning on someone's part put houses in a bad place, why should the airport and local pilots suffer?

I understand how real estate development and local government work, crooks and scum that aren't held accountable for their mistakes and bad planning. How they work and how they should work are 2 different things. If they cared about their job rather than making a quick buck, this wouldn't have happened.
 
SomeTexan said:
I didn't say that I didn't feel sorry for the parents, just not as much. I never said the father shouldn't be compensated for his losses, just that he doesn't deserve millions for it. I have avoided homes near runways and I have always been an aviation fan. Common sense to me. Reports said the plane hit 2 houses, are they packed that tight around a runway? Maybe someone should have left a little margin of error for the pre-existing airport? I think the houses are a safety hazard for pilots and should be removed. A nice mowed pasture would be far better should a bird strike or engine failure happens.

Now, I am not saying the pilot is or isn't at fault, don't know all the facts yet. If he is at fault, then his estate should pay. I just don't think one mans poor choice of housing location should make him rich though. Inadvertently his choice cost him his family. 10 miles from the airport would be a whole different story.
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Back for another whoopin' are ya?

Feeling sorry "not as much" is still pretty f'd up dude, given the extremely low probability of experiencing this event. This family was the unfortunate recipient of some unbelievably bad luck - people could live on that property for thousands of years to come, and this wouldn't happen again - still feeling sorry "not as much"? That's pretty cold, and I'm being nice.

To say that this family made a poor choice in housing is beyond idiotic - again, given the extremely low probability of this happening. I'll have to go back to my previous post and use the driving analogy again - by your logic, you would have to hold the view that it's an extremely poor choice, and then some, to get in your car and drive around. What's your answer to that? Please do enlighten us all!

I also notice that you've avoided addressing the first three points I made in my previous post (post 156) - because you can't do it without some serious back-pedaling.

You should know when to stay down.....
 
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Whoopin? Are you gonna meet me in my yard? Lmao, I don't know or care who you are. You are entitled to your opinion. I think it is stupid though.

I'm cold blooded because I believe people need to take responsibility for their own actions. Including choosing to live in the approach path near an airport. This family learned the hard way that **** happens. That's life, deal with it.

Kinda strange that someone starts a new account just to mess with me.
 
dans2992 said:
I feel for these folks, but the remaining family members are going to be very rich from the settlement. They really don't need money at this point.
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Yeah, but what are the odds that money is actually going to the family?
 
SomeTexan said:
Not any and all, just not so tightly bunched that close. A couple miles of 3 acre lots in line with the runway would leave a far better chance of no fatalities in the event of a landing or take off problem. I would rather hit fences or a barn than a house if I went down. Maybe the local government and the property developer should be held accountable? Seems like something that should have been thought of to me.
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Have you looked around DAL or ADS? There isn't even that kind of spacing around DFW. Planes don't just fall out of the sky, certainly not often enough that it could be considered a known and accepted risk. This is an incredibly rare occurrence. Just ask Garp.
 
SomeTexan said:
Whoopin? Are you gonna meet me in my yard? Lmao, I don't know or care who you are. You are entitled to your opinion. I think it is stupid though.

I'm cold blooded because I believe people need to take responsibility for their own actions. Including choosing to live in the approach path near an airport. This family learned the hard way that **** happens. That's life, deal with it.

Kinda strange that someone starts a new account just to mess with me.
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Your response is in line with what I expected - you don't answer my questions because they undermine your position and you have no good answers. Bravo to you.

Choosing to live in the approach path near an airport is just that - a choice, but it's hardly "beyond stupid" as you say - simply because the probability of something bad happening is next to zero. It's no more stupid than driving a car every day - in fact, it's significantly less "stupid", given the huge difference in risk profiles, but that obviously escapes you.

Yes, **** can and does happen, and despite that, we take reasonable, informed risks every day of our lives. That doesn't make one "beyond stupid." And when someone is unlucky enough to have a plane crash into their house, for one to say they don't feel as bad for the parents as they do for the dead children because the parents chose to live there - well, that's "beyond stupid", to say the least.

Take care.
 
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Patriot44 said:
Your response is in line with what I expected - you don't answer my questions because they undermine your position and you have no good answers. Bravo to you.

Choosing to live in the approach path near an airport is just that - a choice, but it's hardly "beyond stupid" as you say - simply because the probability of something bad happening is next to zero. It's no more stupid than driving a car every day.

Yes, **** can and does happen, and despite that, we take reasonable, informed risks every day of our lives. That doesn't make one "beyond stupid." And when someone is unlucky enough to have a plane crash into their house, for one to say they don't feel as bad for the parents as they do for the dead children because the parents chose to live there - well, that's "beyond stupid", to say the least.

Take care.
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Everybody risks their life every day regardless what they do. Living under the extended center lines of runways and getting hit by a plane and killed has Powerball odds.
 
Patriot44 said:
Your response is in line with what I expected - you don't answer my questions because they undermine your position and you have no good answers. Bravo to you.

Choosing to live in the approach path near an airport is just that - a choice, but it's hardly "beyond stupid" as you say - simply because the probability of something bad happening is next to zero. It's no more stupid than driving a car every day - in fact, it's significantly less "stupid", given the huge difference in risk profiles, but that obviously escapes you.

Yes, **** can and does happen, and despite that, we take reasonable, informed risks every day of our lives. That doesn't make one "beyond stupid." And when someone is unlucky enough to have a plane crash into their house, for one to say they don't feel as bad for the parents as they do for the dead children because the parents chose to live there - well, that's "beyond stupid", to say the least.

Take care.
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You can justify your choices however you want. Opinions are like ****oles, everyone has one and they all stink. Mine included. I usually choose to state off the wall opinions to get people thinking. Or make them mad, either way can be fun.

Also, my car has a 25.5 certified cage. Most of my cars will certify to 8.5 or faster 1/4. Same with my trucks, although some have external cages. I'm safer than most on the road.
 
SomeTexan said:
You can justify your choices however you want. Opinions are like ****oles, everyone has one and they all stink. Mine included. I usually choose to state off the wall opinions to get people thinking. Or make them mad, either way can be fun.

Also, my car has a 25.5 certified cage. Most of my cars will certify to 8.5 or faster 1/4. Same with my trucks, although some have external cages. I'm safer than most on the road.
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You wrote: "I usually state off the wall opinions to get people thinking. Or make them mad, either way can be fun."

Ah hah - now we're getting to the bottom of this - you are a self-admitted internet troll. Glad we've established that. You're illogical position now makes perfect sense. Well done!

http://netforbeginners.about.com/od/weirdwebculture/f/what-is-an-internet-troll.htm
 
Patriot44 said:
You wrote: "I usually state off the wall opinions to get people thinking. Or make them mad, either way can be fun."

Ah hah - now we're getting to the bottom of this - you are a self-admitted internet troll. Glad we've established that. You're illogical position now makes perfect sense. Well done!

http://netforbeginners.about.com/od/weirdwebculture/f/what-is-an-internet-troll.htm
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More data about Internet personalities for those new to the Internet:

http://www.flamewarriorsguide.com/
 
Not really a troll. I just take an unusual stance on some stuff to get a better picture of what people think.

I had an insurance agent explain the way he assigned fault in an accident to me. I was given 5% fault for being there. The city was given 55% for a stop sign being gone. The other driver was given 40% for hitting me when he could have stopped, but he thought I was cutting him off so he didn't. No matter what, every party is given some blame for being there. I look at any accident the same way. Even if I give their housing choice 1% fault, if they weren't there, it wouldn't have happened so there is fault in the accident. I chose not to give more detail initially because, well, this way is more fun. At this point I would say 85% pilot, 10% pilot's training/CFI's, and 5% to bad location. Love it or hate it, that's the way I see it.
 
I think we are getting somewhere:

At the NTSB’s media briefing yesterday for the Phenom 100 crash at Montgomery County Airpark (GAI) in Maryland on Monday morning, December 8, NTSB member Robert Sumwalt said the aircraft’s flight data recorder produced good quality data. Initial findings show that with both the landing gear and flaps down, “automated stall warnings began about 20 seconds before the end of the flight” and continued to the end of the recording at impact.

The recorder also tracked large changes in pitch and roll beginning about the time the aircraft reached its lowest airspeed, approximately 88 knots. Sumwalt said, “Two seconds after the aircraft reached its lowest speed, the throttles increased power and the engines responded.”

Initial investigation of the wreckage does not indicate a pre-impact engine fire or failure, Sumwalt said. Early reports of local bird activity were explained as birds seen on the airport and not, as was first thought, along the Runway 14 final approach course. The Board also said that weather does not appear to have been a factor.

The Phenom 100, N100EQ, was manufactured in April this year. It was certified for and being operated with a single pilot and a passenger in the right seat, according to the NTSB. The pilot held an ATP and a type rating in the aircraft as well as a CFI certificate and had logged 4,500 flying hours before the accident.

Sumwalt confirmed that the same pilot was involved in a 2010 aircraft accident but offered no specifics. The December 8 accident claimed the lives of all three people on board the Phenom and three more in the house the aircraft struck.
 
Anyway, back to some good in humanity from whatever nonsense this has devolved into...

The GoFundMe site has raised $385,000 for the family. The family is very greatful, but has asked for other items rather than cash at this point. Mainly things needed to get life back on track. Clothing, children''s items, etc.

http://wtop.com/52/3760384/Family-requests-non-money-donations
 
Those are the facts but why?

I was talking to a coworker about this crash yesterday. My best GUESS is that the pilot was somehow incapacitated and whomever was in the right seat was trying to land. But that is a GUESS.

olasek said:
I think we are getting somewhere:

At the NTSB’s media briefing yesterday for the Phenom 100 crash at Montgomery County Airpark (GAI) in Maryland on Monday morning, December 8, NTSB member Robert Sumwalt said the aircraft’s flight data recorder produced good quality data. Initial findings show that with both the landing gear and flaps down, “automated stall warnings began about 20 seconds before the end of the flight” and continued to the end of the recording at impact.

The recorder also tracked large changes in pitch and roll beginning about the time the aircraft reached its lowest airspeed, approximately 88 knots. Sumwalt said, “Two seconds after the aircraft reached its lowest speed, the throttles increased power and the engines responded.”

Initial investigation of the wreckage does not indicate a pre-impact engine fire or failure, Sumwalt said. Early reports of local bird activity were explained as birds seen on the airport and not, as was first thought, along the Runway 14 final approach course. The Board also said that weather does not appear to have been a factor.

The Phenom 100, N100EQ, was manufactured in April this year. It was certified for and being operated with a single pilot and a passenger in the right seat, according to the NTSB. The pilot held an ATP and a type rating in the aircraft as well as a CFI certificate and had logged 4,500 flying hours before the accident.

Sumwalt confirmed that the same pilot was involved in a 2010 aircraft accident but offered no specifics. The December 8 accident claimed the lives of all three people on board the Phenom and three more in the house the aircraft struck.
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noobJohn said:
Those are the facts but why?

I was talking to a coworker about this crash yesterday. My best GUESS is that the pilot was somehow incapacitated and whomever was in the right seat was trying to land. But that is a GUESS.
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who was talking on the radio? :yikes::hairraise::yikes:
 
The cockpit voice recorder will explain what really happened... There is no way those three didn't utter any words..:no:
 
noobJohn said:
Those are the facts but why?

I was talking to a coworker about this crash yesterday. My best GUESS is that the pilot was somehow incapacitated and whomever was in the right seat was trying to land. But that is a GUESS.
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Unlikely. Most likely it was a boneheaded pilot in command failure. Jet pilots aren't immune from the classic screw ups. None of us are. Pilots are not a very creative bunch we haven't found a new way to crash in over 100 years.
 
'The airport was there first' is a good argument to counter noise complaints. When faced with someone whose family got wiped out by a plane falling on their house it doesnt cut it. How big do you want the safety area that can never be developed to be ? 1 mile, 5 miles ?

The most recent fatals with planes into houses that I remember were the F18 in San Diego, a turbo commander in New Haven and the Q400 at the outer marker in Buffalo. Is your fault too if you live under the outer marker ? There is no logic to the argument.
 
You're probably right. :confused: Still hard to believe the Asiana crash in San Francisco. If you're coming up short and going too slow...., add power? Doesn't seem that complicated. Huge disclaimer : fastest plane I've flown as PIC was a Cherokee 140. :D I haven't contended with computers, auto-throttles, etc... I am sure there are lots more distractions, buttons to press, and knobs to turn in a Phenom.

ClimbnSink said:
Unlikely. Most likely it was a boneheaded pilot in command failure. Jet pilots aren't immune from the classic screw ups. None of us are. Pilots are not a very creative bunch we haven't found a new way to crash in over 100 years.
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No way to know just based on the LiveATC recording which individual was speaking on the radio. However, it was clearly someone with pilot training that knew what they were talking about. They called a 7 mile, 6 mile, and 3 mile final. Presumably, everything was fine up to at least the 3 mile final call. So whatever went wrong, probably happened between 3 and 1 mile final.

I agree, the CVR probably sheds much more light on what was transpiring than the NTSB has released thusfar.
 
I'm wondering if the pilot maintained currency in other types. If so, negative transfer could explain the low airspeed.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Doesn't matter what ratings you have, he was an ATP rated hobby pilot. Being rated as a pro and working as a pro are two entirely different things.
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So in your world if your not paid by someone else to fly the plane then it's a hobby? You discount the entire population of people who have the skills to both fly and have a job that requires then to travel or those who make money by flying while not employed by another company.
 
The experience built is not the same, regardless of ratings. Go fly for a boss for a bit then get back to us. I hold commercial certificates and am a hobby pilot, haven't flown for money in twenty years. I ain't a pro, tho I have mad pro skillz and the gov't stamp to prove it.:lol:
jtheune said:
So in your world if your not paid by someone else to fly the plane then it's a hobby? You discount the entire population of people who have the skills to both fly and have a job that requires then to travel or those who make money by flying while not employed by another company.
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Just a handful of pilots manage to appreciably drag down the overall quality of this forum.

Ignoring them works less well when others quote and then respond to their inane and inflammatory comments.

It's a shame this forum is like that, but you know what they say about rotten apples. :mad2:
 
I worked at the Chapel Hill airport during all four years of college. The airport is very small and the number of planes based on the field was MAYBE two dozen when I was there. You get to know the owners fairly well. Generally speaking, a great group of individuals.

I don't know the pilot outside of the airport, but I did interact with and observe him for four years when he owned the TBM. It is taking all of my restraint to not say anything negative but I'll offer that I wasn't surprised a bit when I heard about the first TBM crash.

After years of not thinking about him, a couple nights ago when I heard a Chapel Hill jet crashed near Baltimore, memories of this guy bounced up immediately. Sure enough, my gut was correct. I wasn't aware that he had upgraded to a jet; had guessed after the last TBM mishap that he may cool his jets (pun intended). I guess not.

What a tragedy.
 
FastEddieB said:
Just a handful of pilots manage to appreciably drag down the overall quality of this forum.

Ignoring them works less well when others quote and then respond to their inane and inflammatory comments.

It's a shame this forum is like that, but you know what they say about rotten apples. :mad2:
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I could not agree more!!!
Although entertaining at times, I kind of associate it to the "village idiot"
Feckless mostly.
 
FastEddieB said:
Just a handful of pilots manage to appreciably drag down the overall quality of this forum.

Ignoring them works less well when others quote and then respond to their inane and inflammatory comments.

It's a shame this forum is like that, but you know what they say about rotten apples. :mad2:
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Insults shielded in pretend moral superiority are so much better then differing opinions. Oh snap you better ignore that. Did you put your fingers in your ears when your parents tried to teach you to be a man?
 
Guy got slow and stalled his airplane. Jets stall same as piston aircraft, their still airplanes. When they stall they crash and go boom, make big fire. Stall warning could blared for an hour, if the guy was distracted he'd not have noticed.

Pity for the folks on the ground, but it just goes to show you aren't really safe anywhere.
 
ClimbnSink said:
:lol:No it isn't slander when it is true. An insult is an insult, true or not. Get it right dude.
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Most of it is opinion. Don't get worked up over it.

And besides, there's nothing that says FE was talking about YOU.
 
I wasn't insulted I just want everyone to understand if you call a fat chick fat she will feel insulted and the truth of her fatness is no comfort. Now the world would be a healthier place if we had more fat shaming, but I digress too far from hobby pilots spinning in their jet toys.
 
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