Crash at GAI (Gaithersburg, MD)

47PILOT said:
That line of logic would also apply to cars, trucks, buses, trains etc.
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That is a truism for most accidents. Unless you are run into by something, or what you crashed broke, it is your fault. The only question to ask is how could you have prevented it. Hardly ever is it a mechanical failure.
 
Bill Jennings said:
The only thing I know about it is, once they send their damned birds down here we know they'll be sending their cold air mass shortly after. :(
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Exactly! Wonder if they are considered illegal immigrants as well :)
 
Henning said:
Doesn't the Phenom have fuselage mounted engines? I'm not sure you can get into a Vmc roll with one, although if he was on a rudder and uncoordinated when he stalled it could have dropped a wing into a spin.
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Yeah, they're fuselage mounted. Guess I didn't think too much about a Vmc roll on a fuselage mounted plane, though I'm sure something like that is still possible, though a lot less probable. Good point.
 
Pedals2Paddles said:
In the midst of all this bad news, here is a little bit of faith restored in some of humanity. And for those interested in helping the family. A GoFundMe has been established to help the survivors of the family living in the home that was hit. In only 15 hours, they've raised $88,000.

http://www.gofundme.com/gemmellfamily
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Thanks for that link. I was thinking of how someone should do that for the family. I know its not going to fix their lives, but I hope my donation can help. I think we should make it known that as pilots we really do care about times like this.
 
I believe the Phenom 100 has a stick pusher. In good weather it is hard to imagine a stall on a straight in final. It sounds like the plane stalled vs sank because the witnesses describe a sharp turn before the crash. Could have very well been a bird strike.

Of course, the Asiana guys had all that stuff and they still managed to hit a sea wall.

I have met the pilot before briefly, maybe 2 years ago. I work in the health industry and my company HQ is right across the street from Health Decisions. Looking out my window just now, I can see a bunch of reporters and news trucks in their parking lot.
 
ClimbnSink said:
because of our chosen form of recreation
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My understanding is the pilot was likely on a business trip. Not everyone uses their plane just for "recreation". Some of us (myself included) actually use their plane for business purposes.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
My understanding is the pilot was likely on a business trip. Not everyone uses their plane just for "recreation". Some of us (myself included) actually use their plane for business purposes.
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Yeah, I use my planes mostly for transportation, not recreation. At the end of the trip it's just as likely I'll be working as recreating. Not many people are going to buy a VLJ just to go burn holes in the sky for fun. Heck, for Phenom 100 money you could fly a MIG-21 for while if you wanted to have fun.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
My understanding is the pilot was likely on a business trip. Not everyone uses their plane just for "recreation". Some of us (myself included) actually use their plane for business purposes.
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Well you see that is probably worse in the public's eye. Killing a mother and two kids so you don't have to stand in the TSA line, have fun spinning that.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Well you see that is probably worse in the public's eye. Killing a mother and two kids so you don't have to stand in the TSA line, have fun spinning that.
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Easy, eliminate the TSA line and re regulate the airline industry so it becomes more useful than painful, and these hazardous planes disappear.:yes:
 
1600vw said:
They are not called " Canada Geese". They are called Canadian Geese, at least in my neck of the woods.

R.I.P. To all souls involved in this very sad accident.

Tony
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On the eastern shore of maryland.....where there are thousands, they are Canada geese.
 
dell30rb said:
I believe the Phenom 100 has a stick pusher. In good weather it is hard to imagine a stall on a straight in final. It sounds like the plane stalled vs sank because the witnesses describe a sharp turn before the crash. Could have very well been a bird strike.

Of course, the Asiana guys had all that stuff and they still managed to hit a sea wall.

I have met the pilot before briefly, maybe 2 years ago. I work in the health industry and my company HQ is right across the street from Health Decisions. Looking out my window just now, I can see a bunch of reporters and news trucks in their parking lot.
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Easy to imagine the stall if he iced up on the way to Gaithersburg, was a low time pilot plus low time in this aircraft. I suspect all of the above or... He ran out of gas. It was overcast, gloomy day conducive to icing.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Easy to imagine the stall if he iced up on the way to Gaithersburg, was a low time pilot plus low time in this aircraft. I suspect all of the above or... He ran out of gas. It was overcast, gloomy day conducive to icing.
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Reported on the red board he held ATP and CFI certs. Freeze level was around 7k, tops at 5 according to BWI radiosonde. Fire indicates plenty of fuel aboard. Ceilings were around 3k, other pilots flying in the area vfr.

Something happened here, other than the usual suspects.
 
1600vw said:
They are not called " Canada Geese". They are called Canadian Geese, at least in my neck of the woods.

R.I.P. To all souls involved in this very sad accident.

Tony
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Canada geese is the grammatically appropriate and accurate term. Calling them "Canadian Geese" would be akin to, for example, saying "Californian Bears.'
 
Log book will tell all. Plus weather from North Carolina on up and what he may have encountered.
 
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The NTSB has preliminary ruled out birds and engine failure. There is no evidence of bird remains. There is no evidence of pre-crash damage or fire to the engines.

The aircraft slowed to 88 knots. Vref is 100kts. I believe stall in landing configuration is 77kts and clean is 100kts. The stall warning was sounding for 20 seconds leading up to the crash. The aircraft entered a steep pitch up and the wings were rocking. They have not said anything about what was spoken yet.

The pilot held an ATP and CFI certificate and had 4,500 hours.
 
He was too slow and too low to recover. A more intensive study of his hours, in what types , in what weather, should shed more light. Not a high time commercial pilot by any means. From reports available, he stalled it. He had the same problem,at the same airport, some months prior, in a single. That time he lucked out. If it was in fact ice, that would have melted rapidly once he crashed.The pilot who crashed near buffalo with fifty six on board held the same ratings, as did the co pilot.
 
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Pedals2Paddles said:
I believe stall in landing configuration is 77kts and clean is 100kts.
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Are these your numbers or from NTSB sources? How did you determine the weight?

Nauga,
who thinks crowd-sourced accident 'investigation' is pointless
 
I looked up the stall and Vref speeds in advertising literature, which is the best I can do. Hence "i believe". The rest of the information is from the NTSB based on the FDR.
 
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Pedals2Paddles said:
I looked up the stall and Vref speeds in advertising literature, which is the best I can do. Hence "i believe". The rest of the information is from the NTSB based on the FDR.
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Might be good to make a distinction between fact and conjecture in posts like that. Especially conjecture as flawed as the above example.

Nauga,
forensically
 
Just some info from the flight plan and FDR.
- Flight time from Chapel Hill to Gaithersburg: 57 minutes
- En route altitude: FL230
- Captain (ATPL rated) seated in left hand seat
- Passenger seated in right hand seat
- Flight was cleared for RNAV GPS runway 14 approach
- 46 Seconds before CVR recording ended: Radio Altimeter callout of 500 feet
- 20 Seconds before CVR recording ended: Audio stall callout, which continued to the end of the recording
- Flaps were extended and gear was down
- Lowest recorded airspeed by FDR: 88 knots
- Large excursions in pitch and roll attitude were recorded by the FDR
- 2 Seconds after lowest airspeed was recorded, the throttles were advanced
- No evidence of engine fire or failure or bird ingestion
 
County councilman on TV news tonight stated that the council will look into whether the airport still fits in the area given the residential growth. For the safety of the residents.
 
I won't post a link, but there is at least one web site calling for the airport to be shut down immediately. I'm sure that won't be the last.
 
They have a catchy slogan 'keep your airplanes out of our living rooms.'
 
The crash is closely covered by local news here in the (NC) Triangle because the pilot and passengers are based here. To their credit, at least one TV news outlet, WRAL, did a commendable job covering the technical NTSB-driven aspects of the crash. I guess it's easier to do a 'fair and balanced' job when the crash itself isn't local.

WRAL continues to surprise... when I used to travel to South America I'd turn on the English language station in the hotels and WRAL would be the US 'local' news station carried.
 
In his previous accident at this same airport, pilot told the FAA that the 10-15 mile an hour cross wind caused him to lose control. That doesn't sound good at all for an ATP rated pilot.
 
dans2992 said:
I feel for these folks, but the remaining family members are going to be very rich from the settlement. They really don't need money at this point.
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Settlement is how many years away? How much would you need to lose a wife, two kids and your house? I'm all for being a cold hearted jerk, but killing nonparticipants is just not OK.
 
Re: Phenom 100 crash at GAI (Gaithersburg, MD)

Don't stretch what I said. I am minimizing their need for money, not saying the "killing non-participants is OK"!

Money isn't going to make up for the loss of their loved ones, and any expenses due to this tragedy will be covered many (many) times over by the pilot's insurers.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Easy to imagine the stall if he iced up on the way to Gaithersburg, was a low time pilot plus low time in this aircraft. I suspect all of the above or... He ran out of gas. It was overcast, gloomy day conducive to icing.
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Interesting, I see and suspect none of the above.
 
Pedals2Paddles said:
The NTSB has preliminary ruled out birds and engine failure. There is no evidence of bird remains. There is no evidence of pre-crash damage or fire to the engines.

The aircraft slowed to 88 knots. Vref is 100kts. I believe stall in landing configuration is 77kts and clean is 100kts. The stall warning was sounding for 20 seconds leading up to the crash. The aircraft entered a steep pitch up and the wings were rocking. They have not said anything about what was spoken yet.

The pilot held an ATP and CFI certificate and had 4,500 hours.
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My suspicion is the AP was flying the approach and took a dump and the pilot disassociated from the event like the AF 447 guys.

I'll put money some form of "What's it doing now?" If anything from the pilot.
 
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wsuffa said:
I won't post a link, but there is at least one web site calling for the airport to be shut down immediately. I'm sure that won't be the last.
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Similar websites probably exist for most metropolitan GA airports. I wouldn't give them a click even if you had posted.
 
Henning said:
Interesting, I see and suspect none of the above.
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Interesting.....I suspect all of the above plus pilot error resulting from lack of time in type. Especially if one bothers to read particulars from his previous accident.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Settlement is how many years away? How much would you need to lose a wife, two kids and your house? I'm all for being a cold hearted jerk, but killing nonparticipants is just not OK.
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The adults weren't non-participants when they bought a house in the approach path. Simple as that, they knew it was a possibility. The kids I feel sorry for, the parents, not so much. Now, because they decided to live in line with a runway, they will probably want to punish all local pilots because of this. It's bs. Just like racetracks, idiots move close to them then complain about the noise and traffic. Simple fix is do a little research before you buy a house, and don't expect everyone to drop to their knees because you made a mistake.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Interesting.....I suspect all of the above plus pilot error resulting from lack of time in type. Especially if one bothers to read particulars from his previous accident.
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I don't think the plane was iced up, and I don't think he was controlling the aircraft. I think the AP ate ass, it happens in most every airplane with an AP I get in. I think the details of his previous accident show him to be a dissassociative type personality under threat. He didn't react on the throttle until it was too late. This is not an unusual trait in humans, it's one of the ways we cope with dying.
 
Just, Wondering how safe aircraft of this type really are, to fly single pilot? Anyone remember Thurman Munson?
 
sidneyfw said:
Just, Wondering how safe aircraft of this type really are, to fly single pilot? Anyone remember Thurman Munson?
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Not at all, in fact, the biggest single difference in the safety record of 121 vs 91 is that 121 runs a crew cockpit. When things start going wrong they go wrong fast and the ability to delegate control duties and and diagnostic duties to two different people is a huge advantage.

IMO the safety of an autopilot is vastly over rated as it is one of the most fallible systems in the plane, in fact an autopilot failure is what precipitated AF-447. Autopilots are highly complex electronic-electromechanical devices and do a lot of work with little maintenance, that in itself does not bode well. I have very few hours under autopilot because most of the planes I've flown with autopilots, the AP was either unreliable or broken. In over 2500 hours of flying a whole bunch of different plane, there are only two where the autopilot has not failed me, Av Shilo's Comanche and Bob Gerace's T310R; and these guys spend big budget constantly maintains their equipment, yet still don't operate failure free, they just have them every couple of years rather than every couple, or even every, flight. They also train a lot.

The funny thing is I am completely relaxed hand flying, Bob put a Pulse Oximiter on me as I was doing a black hole departure out of Alamosa and says, "58, how the hell do you have a pulse of 58 when hand flying a black hole departure with mountains all around you?":lol: On autopilot I feel like a CFI with a schizophrenic student, watching for the first sign of them flipping out and going suicidal.:dunno: Once you learn that trim is a continuous process from take off to landing. During cruise you are constantly giving it a nudge to compensate for the fuel burn off reduction in drag. Unless it is really turbulent, I barely work flying.

Personally I think considering an autopilot as your safety back up for control while you diagnose is not that solid of thinking when there is a very good chance what you are diagnosing is going to be autopilot related.
 
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These planes should minimally have one professional pilot in it with 121 captain level recurrent training. Here's the rub with this case, it appears he likely had that type of training. I think he was just a poor death stress reactive personality type for being PIC. Now I give the guy credit, he must have been a good human being, because he survived the first time. The reality is, in aviation that isn't always granted in this type of stuff; you disassociate and sit there watching a movie unfold when you are looking at your death approach and typically you die.

Basically I bet his work and driven nature were the underpinnings for this accident. His work was analyzing data, and he was a prolific producer, flying was likely his relaxation, his hobby away from work. I think this is why he failed to analyze his prior accident fully, partly because analyzing is work and flying time isn't, and loving flying and not wanting to admit to himself he really wasn't suited to serving as PIC. Had the first factor not come into play, an intelligent person in his financial position would find a veteran pilot and hire them to manage the plane and crew with them.
 
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