COVID: IFR Flight in VFR Conditions?

[VWGhiaBob]

I don’t know about you, but I’ve already lost my IFR currency and have no good way to get it back. Instructors won’t fly, nor do I want to fly a foot apart from a safety pilot.

I do want to maintain my skills. Question: ATC lets us practice IFR approaches in VFR conditions (separation services not provided). Will they do the same for the rest of the flight? That is, can I file an IFR departure procedure, route, and approach, but specify VFR in my filing, and then fly the whole route in VFR without separation services? Presumably they’d want me at a VFR altitude.

Yes, I know this would be to maintain skills and not currency. Without a safety pilot, no way can I log approaches, holds, and tracking course. That said, I’m still interested.

Or is practice limited to approaches? I have never heard someone ask for a whole IFR flight in VFR conditions, but thought I’d put it out there...

 

[eman1200]

IF you are current, of course you can file IFR in VFR conditions. Since you are not current, I’d do the opposite of what you said....get VFR flight following but request to do a practice approach, even if you’re solo (obviously not under the hood). Or if you’re flying to a sleepy little non-towered field, fly the full approach on your own. Both of these are, of course, not for currency but just to practice some of your mad skillz.

 

[AA5Bman]

Can’t fly on an IFR flight plan if not current. This is like the first question on your instrument checkride, I’m sure you know this.

 

[VWGhiaBob]

Can’t fly on an IFR flight plan if not current. This is like the first question on your instrument checkride, I’m sure you know this.

Yes, so here’s the scenario: File VFR with IFR routing including Departure Procedure and Route. Enter VFR Altitudes. Fly DP as a “Practice Departure” with tower permission. Then when handed off to Flight following, verify the routing you filed and when appropriate request the STAR and Approach - VFR Conditions no separation services. Seems like this would be fine, and it gets you a bit of convoluted IFR Practice.

 

[flyingron]

Can’t fly on an IFR flight plan if not current.

Specifically, you can't operate as pilot in command under IFR if not current. As Bob points out, you can pretend to be IFR. Most facilities will allow you to get IFR-like services for training if you ask.

You don't need the tower's permission to fly a departure procedure in most cases (in fact, you don't need it IFR either). If shortly after getting radar services you tell ATC you'd like practice approaches VFR they'll likely give you instructions from then on similar to IFR procedures.

 

[VWGhiaBob]

Specifically, you can't operate as pilot in command under IFR if not current. As Bob points out, you can pretend to be IFR. Most facilities will allow you to get IFR-like services for training if you ask.

You don't need the tower's permission to fly a departure procedure in most cases (in fact, you don't need it IFR either). If shortly after getting radar services you tell ATC you'd like practice approaches VFR they'll likely give you instructions from then on similar to IFR procedures.

Thanks...that answers my question with one caveat: The IFR takeoff procedure at my home airport requires aircraft to take off against traffic (yes really...runway 30 when 12 is in use at KWHP). Our area has 3 busy airports biking distance from each other. So there may be cases where the Departure Procedure is off the table.

 

[wayne]

Any flight schools have a simulator that qualifies?

Otherwise you may be stuck. I still have some time. Maybe if the clouds are low enough this weekend I'll go shoot some to stay current; showers are forecasted for Saturday morning here. Or maybe Monday as it has AM showers in the forecast too.

 

[VWGhiaBob]

Any flight schools have a simulator that qualifies?

Otherwise you may be stuck. I still have some time. Maybe if the clouds are low enough this weekend I'll go shoot some to stay current; showers are forecasted for Saturday morning here. Or maybe Monday as it has AM showers in the forecast too.

Good question. I used to have a Flythissim BATD I could use to log currency at home. Unfortunately, I sold it. The only sim I’ve found so far is $130 / hour high end simulator...and I’d need an instructor for that one...and they aren’t working.

 

[Rgbeard]

How long ago since your last "countable" Instrument Approach?

Time to make friends and get a safety pilot to sit there while you knock out some foggle time, IMO.

Don't forget a hold.

Then, at least, you'll be current, and you can file IFR again.

Let us know what metro area you live in, and maybe someone from here would take the task of safety pilot?

 

[frfly172]

OP didn’t want to use a safety pilot,because of the virus.

 

[cowman]

You can fly approaches on your own under VFR at any uncontrolled field without having to file anything. As stated it doesn't count towards anything loggable or currency but if you just want to practice just go up, pick an airport and approach, and fly it.

 

[Rgbeard]

OP didn’t want to use a safety pilot,because of the virus.

Well, coat with Purell, take temperatures, glove-up, and go fly.

Oh - and don't pick your nose, or anyone else's nose.

 

[jordane93]

You can just go from point A to point B on flight following and follow a SID, victor airways/routing, and approach all VFR. Just tell ATC that you want to follow a specific routing and not just direct.

 

[flyingron]

Thanks...that answers my question with one caveat: The IFR takeoff procedure at my home airport requires aircraft to take off against traffic (yes really...runway 30 when 12 is in use at KWHP). Our area has 3 busy airports biking distance from each other. So there may be cases where the Departure Procedure is off the table.

Actually being IFR doesn't give you authority to create collision hazards with VFR aircraft.

 

[VWGhiaBob]

Actually being IFR doesn't give you authority to create collision hazards with VFR aircraft.

Huh? Obviously not; maybe I’m missing something. What does give me permission to do so is the tower, as these reverse take off’s are routine at my airport. It’s no more hazardous than any other form of IFR. My question was whether or not they would allow it under VFR conditions where they would still follow the same routine safety protocols. I’ll know soon...they can always say no!

 

[VWGhiaBob]

Well, coat with Purell, take temperatures, glove-up, and go fly.

Oh - and don't pick your nose, or anyone else's nose.

Even my SR22 wears an N95!

 

[VWGhiaBob]

Good question. I used to have a Flythissim BATD I could use to log currency at home. Unfortunately, I sold it. The only sim I’ve found so far is $130 / hour high end simulator...and I’d need an instructor for that one...and they aren’t working.

Problem solved: Found a Flythissim BATD at a local flight school that qualifies for currency under the October 2018 FAA guidelines. I’ll be current by Sunday for another 6 months! And no, per FAA guidelines, I do not need a CFI present to log sim time as currency. One hold and two approaches...comin up! Back in the (IFR) air.

 

[flyingron]

Huh? Obviously not; maybe I’m missing something. What does give me permission to do so is the tower, as these reverse take off’s are routine at my airport. It’s no more hazardous than any other form of IFR. My question was whether or not they would allow it under VFR conditions where they would still follow the same routine safety protocols. I’ll know soon...they can always say no!

Towers do not provide separation. It makes no difference if your are IFR or VFR. If you are in VMC, you must be watching out for other traffic.

 

[VWGhiaBob]

Towers do not provide separation. It makes no difference if your are IFR or VFR. If you are in VMC, you must be watching out for other traffic.

Couldn't agree more. That's why if they allow it, I expect to hear (and follow): "Practice Departure Procedure Approved in VFR conditions; no separation services provided." That said, I assume they won't clear me for takeoff if there's another plane taking off on the same runway the opposite direction. Nevertheless, I'll look to make sure, as I always do.

 

[Palmpilot]

Problem solved: Found a Flythissim BATD at a local flight school that qualifies for currency under the October 2018 FAA guidelines. I’ll be current by Sunday for another 6 months! And no, per FAA guidelines, I do not need a CFI present to log sim time as currency. One hold and two approaches...comin up! Back in the (IFR) air.

It's not just guidelines. The requirement to have an instructor present in order to use a BATD or AATD for IFR currency was removed from the regulations.

By the way, I realize that this is now moot for you, but for the sake of completeness, your previous idea of flying IFR routes under VFR would not require filing anything unless you wanted to file for search-and-rescue purposes; VFR flight plans are not normally sent to ATC, only to Flight Service.

 

[VWGhiaBob]

Good point! Always seemed strange to me that IFR routes are sent, but not VFR...especially in this day of advanced electronics.

 

[flyingron]

It's not "routes" that are the issue. VFR plans are not transmitted to ATC period. If you want ATC to see them, you need to check the IFR box. You can put VFR in the alt block and fly it under VFR.

Years ago right when the DC3 procedures were first announced after 9/11, I was in the first group of people cleared (I was based at VKX). The person from the FAA was a friend of mine who was a controller but had been in management for a long time. During the briefing, he kept making a big thing about how hard it was to get the plans from the Leesburg AFSS over to Washington Approach. I asked why they didn't just put them in as IFR. That was a revelation to him. He dragged me over to the guys from the FSS and they said, "Of course, we're putting them in as IFR, how else would it work."

 

[VWGhiaBob]

Wow...super interesting. I can’t help but wonder though if there might be confusion if it’s filed IFR but really VFR. Also...is it OK for a non-current pilot to even file an IFR flight plan?

 

[Palmpilot]

Wow...super interesting. I can’t help but wonder though if there might be confusion if it’s filed IFR but really VFR.

I think there was an article in IFR magazine promoting that idea. However there was a PoA member who asked the Chief Counsel's folks whether this was OK, and got the standard letter-of-the-law answer that it wasn't allowed.

Also...is it OK for a non-current pilot to even file an IFR flight plan?

This thread goes into that subject, and also has the Chief Counsel opinion that I mentioned above as an attachment:

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/file-ifr-when-not-rated.57248/

IIRC there was disagreement on it.

 

[luvflyin]

Yes, so here’s the scenario: File VFR with IFR routing including Departure Procedure and Route. Enter VFR Altitudes. Fly DP as a “Practice Departure” with tower permission. Then when handed off to Flight following, verify the routing you filed and when appropriate request the STAR and Approach - VFR Conditions no separation services. Seems like this would be fine, and it gets you a bit of convoluted IFR Practice.

I doubt if ATC is going to give you some kind of “Practice IFR Departure” clearance because no such thing exists. But letting them know you plan on ‘following’ the DP Route works. They’re either gonna say OK or not. Another thing you could do if you are familiar with how they typically like VFR Departures to fly, or how the instruct/clear them if B, C or TRSA airspace, then build your own DP that mimics it. Draw it on a piece of paper. Plug some made up Waypoints in whatever RNAV Gizmo you have. That would help with keeping your navigation and buttonology skills sharp.

 

[luvflyin]

Wow...super interesting. I can’t help but wonder though if there might be confusion if it’s filed IFR but really VFR. Also...is it OK for a non-current pilot to even file an IFR flight plan?

Define OK? It ain’t legal. I think I may know someone who has done it, many times. But they Cancel the minute they detect they are causing any kind of delay to other Traffic. Requesting and getting VFR On Top greatly reduces the chance of that happening.

 

[chemgeek]

Why can't you fly around all you want in VFR conditions, including flying "practice" approaches, and talking to ATC? The only restriction is that you can't do it with a view restricting device, as you are still responsible for visual traffic avoidance. It's not perfect, but it has some value, flying procedures, operating equipment, and keeping the needles centered.

I sometimes fly solo "practice" approaches to my home field in VFR conditions to stay acquainted with operating the nav box and AP, and learning the visual cues you might see on breakout. But an IPC is better. Many of us are in the same boat re:IFR currency. Of course, there's nowhere to really fly to at the moment, so it's kind of a moot point for a while.

 

[Maxnr]

Any flight schools have a simulator that qualifies?

Wayne, you beat me to it. I and many of my fellow pilots routinely got our IPC's in the sim. Once, I also got night current too.

 

[VWGhiaBob]

From the OP...followed one of the solutions above...flew 4 approaches and two holds today in an approved sim at a local flight school...and I‘m current! It’s amazing how effective a sim is for IFR. I hand flew 3 of the approaches. Later in the day, I had a real IFR flight in the soup that involved a 100% complex reroute right after takeoff. IFR...challenges never end!

I don’t know about you, but I’ve already lost my IFR currency and have no good way to get it back. Instructors won’t fly, nor do I want to fly a foot apart from a safety pilot.

I do want to maintain my skills. Question: ATC lets us practice IFR approaches in VFR conditions (separation services not provided). Will they do the same for the rest of the flight? That is, can I file an IFR departure procedure, route, and approach, but specify VFR in my filing, and then fly the whole route in VFR without separation services? Presumably they’d want me at a VFR altitude.

Yes, I know this would be to maintain skills and not currency. Without a safety pilot, no way can I log approaches, holds, and tracking course. That said, I’m still interested.

Or is practice limited to approaches? I have never heard someone ask for a whole IFR flight in VFR conditions, but thought I’d put it out there...

 

[Groundpounder]

I don’t know about you, but I’ve already lost my IFR currency and have no good way to get it back. Instructors won’t fly, nor do I want to fly a foot apart from a safety pilot.

I do want to maintain my skills. Question: ATC lets us practice IFR approaches in VFR conditions (separation services not provided). Will they do the same for the rest of the flight? That is, can I file an IFR departure procedure, route, and approach, but specify VFR in my filing, and then fly the whole route in VFR without separation services? Presumably they’d want me at a VFR altitude.

Yes, I know this would be to maintain skills and not currency. Without a safety pilot, no way can I log approaches, holds, and tracking course. That said, I’m still interested.

Or is practice limited to approaches? I have never heard someone ask for a whole IFR flight in VFR conditions, but thought I’d put it out there...

Why would you have to file a DP, route, etc, when you are VFR? Just fly them, you're VFR, you don't have to file anything.

 

[Pugs]

IF you are current, of course you can file IFR in VFR conditions. Since you are not current, I’d do the opposite of what you said....get VFR flight following but request to do a practice approach, even if you’re solo (obviously not under the hood). Or if you’re flying to a sleepy little non-towered field, fly the full approach on your own. Both of these are, of course, not for currency but just to practice some of your mad skillz.

Exactly what I did yesterday. A VOR-A into Westminster and an ILS into Fredrick. They don't count for currency purposes but I haven't flown in almost a month and you do get rusty on simple things like button mashing and your scan. I didn't file (other than my SFRA flight plans in and out of KGAI) and simply gave Potomac Approach a call and told them what I wanted to do. It wasn't as good as being Fogglized but it was decent. I'm good until 31 May for instrument currency but it's going to be a close run thing I think to get a chance to fly with someone else or a decent IFR day before then.

 

[flyingron]

There's no regulation that says you can't file an IFR plan. The CC letter waffled on whether such would indicate an INTENT to fly IFR illegally yet this really means little. It however is done every day by ATC and FSS. This is one of those cases as I described earlier where the people making pronouncements don't understand how the system works. I'll file IFR with a VFR block and frankly until I accept an IFR clearance or otherwise operate under IFR, I'm not going to worry about it.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Wow...super interesting. I can’t help but wonder though if there might be confusion if it’s filed IFR but really VFR. Also...is it OK for a non-current pilot to even file an IFR flight plan?

The potential for confusion is there. The concern is that ATC might treat you as IFR and you might go along. The Chief Counsel letter already mentioned doesn't really say you can't do it. More like, if you do do it and a problem arises because of it, "but I intended VFR" will fall on deaf ears.

 

[Nathan Miller]

A bit of an aside: I'm a VFR pilot and when I'm expecting any interaction with ATC (ie: taking off from a towered field or asking for VFR Traffic Advisories once I'm airborne), I will often file IFR plans with, say, "VFR/030" in my altitude block.

When I contact ATC - I will say "Podunk Departure, N12345, VFR, but you should have a strip for us, 1,200' off Podunk Airport. Climbing 3,000. Request VFR traffic advisories"

I say VFR - let's them know I'm not a priority. I include the part about the strip so they don't start a new one. I figure it makes their lives easier. Plus it frees them up from having to ask "Say Type" "Say Destination" "Say ..."

Do I have to do this? Absolutely not. But it seems to lighten their workload and make their job a bit easier and it's just a routine now that it adds little time/hassle to my pre-takeoff planning/briefing.

 

[Palmpilot]

A bit of an aside: I'm a VFR pilot and when I'm expecting any interaction with ATC (ie: taking off from a towered field or asking for VFR Traffic Advisories once I'm airborne), I will often file IFR plans with, say, "VFR/030" in my altitude block.

When I contact ATC - I will say "Podunk Departure, N12345, VFR, but you should have a strip for us, 1,200' off Podunk Airport. Climbing 3,000. Request VFR traffic advisories"

I say VFR - let's them know I'm not a priority. I include the part about the strip so they don't start a new one. I figure it makes their lives easier. Plus it frees them up from having to ask "Say Type" "Say Destination" "Say ..."

Do I have to do this? Absolutely not. But it seems to lighten their workload and make their job a bit easier and it's just a routine now that it adds little time/hassle to my pre-takeoff planning/briefing.

I've heard that some controllers are not familiar with that procedure.

 

[coma24]

ATC lets us practice IFR approaches in VFR conditions (separation services not provided)

Whether you receive sep services during a VFR practice approach is based on policy for that facility, usually communicated in a Letter to Airman that covers the local area. Do not assume that shooting an approach under VFR always equates separation not being provided.

 

[flyingron]

A "letter to airman" can't create separation services. That makes no sense. They may provide traffic advisories.

 

[luvflyin]

A "letter to airman" can't create separation services. That makes no sense. They may provide traffic advisories.

ATC procedures can create separation services to VFR aircraft conducting Practice Approaches at some airports. A Letter to Airman must be issued where it does. So yeah, the Letter doesn’t ‘create’ separation, separation creates the Letter. It’s kinda like the chicken and egg thang, which came first.

 

[coma24]

Just saying that the LTA can be researched ahead of time, so you can get a sense for the terminal areas in which you're likly to receive separation services during VFR practice approaches. I'm simply correcting the potential implication from the first post that VFR practice approach equates to not receive separation services.