Cost to Own

DutchessFlier said:
Hold On Folks:

The bulk of the expense was the Top Overhaul. 3 of my 4 cylinders had valve/valve guide issues, then failed analysis at Penn Yan, and could not be overhauled due to internal cracks in the exhaust ports, and this was an issue of airworthiness of that engine. I decided to go with new OEM jugs from Lycoming that were first sent to Penn Yan to be spec'd out and then shipped to my shop, that cost me 6K in parts alone. The notion that this is misleading, Ron, is a foolish assumption on your part. This is the reality of owning an aircraft. A reality that you should know better than almost anyone here. Other than the newly added monitoring system, which to me was a good move along with the top overhaul, all of the work done on my aircraft was for both airworthiness issues and preventive MX. Nothing was cosmetic. If you like, I can scan the invoice and detailed breakdown of hours and work done and send it to you for your approval.

Telling anyone that they can get away with an annual at a given price point, whatever that is, (I'm not talking about the inspection alone) is downright foolish, misleading , and dangerous.
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And how many hours and years did those parts have on them?

If you put away$10/hr for overhaul reserve would that pay for it?

No one is disputing the need for an overhaul to keep the plane airworthy. Just that the accepted method of dealing with overhaul costs is to account for them separately from annual inspections and normal wear and tear.
 
Oh and I like the Cherokees too for a low cost airplane. While I enjoy flying a Cessna more, the Cherokee is a better deal as far as operating costs, utility and purchase price.

Our club has 3 1980 warriors and 3 2001 172sp. The Old warriors spend less time in the shop
 
"And how many hours and years did those parts have on them?"

I refer you back to my post #24 in this thread: 1400 hours and 24 years, of which I have owned the plane for just under two years.

I knew the valve guide test (wobble test) was going to be a part of this year's annual and was not surprised that they needed to be worked on, and frankly glad the internal cracks showed up on the ground and not aloft, nor was I surprised at the mag rebuild based on the Slick Mag Service Bulletin. I negotiated the price for the plane based among other things, on having to tackle both those items as owner. Before anyone buys an aircraft, the research and homework and gut checking you gotta do goes way beyond a spreadsheet, not criticizing the spreadsheet, just saying there's alot to the decision.

Ron: I agree totally, and that is my whole point. I knew eyes wide open what the first two years of ownership might bring me at these first two annuals and factored that in to every hour. If anyone thinks that they can operate an aircraft without diligently putting real hard cash away for each hour they operate, then they are only fooling themselves, or going to find themselves having to finance the overhauls and "unanticipated" mechanical events at a cost.

The whole point is to understand what you are getting into. There are way too many aircraft sitting on tiedowns or in hangars not flying right now because their owners just cannot handle the cost of keeping them airworthy, and I am afraid that number is going to increase due to a number of factors we all know.
 
Ron Levy said:
I doubt an engine overhaul and installation of a full engine monitoring system were required for airworthiness. As such, suggesting the "annual" cost $22K is highly misleading to anyone contemplating ownership and trying to figure the annualized costs.
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And just why wouldn't an engine overhaul be required for airworthiness? If the compressions fail for half the cylinders and are low on the others then it'd be the prudent thing to do. I know of one 152 that this happened to. Your doubts are entertaining but deny reality.

I had an annual inspection done on the TurboDakota as a pre-purchase inspection. It cost the owner $17,000 to make it airworthy and no engine components were involved. I found a ruptured motor mount as I was prepping the aircraft for my first annual and that was quite expensive to repair. All it takes is a crack or two in the wrong places. Liz (Azure) just went through an expensive and time consuming annual also. Expensive annuals are a very real possibility of ownership. Saying they aren't is misleading to the point of being an outright lie.
 
Clark1961 said:
And just why wouldn't an engine overhaul be required for airworthiness? If the compressions fail for half the cylinders and are low on the others then it'd be the prudent thing to do. I know of one 152 that this happened to. Your doubts are entertaining but deny reality.

I had an annual inspection done on the TurboDakota as a pre-purchase inspection. It cost the owner $17,000 to make it airworthy and no engine components were involved. I found a ruptured motor mount as I was prepping the aircraft for my first annual and that was quite expensive to repair. All it takes is a crack or two in the wrong places. Liz (Azure) just went through an expensive and time consuming annual also. Expensive annuals are a very real possibility of ownership. Saying they aren't is misleading to the point of being an outright lie.
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What you reflect in this post is a buyer attitude that I would have simply told you to go away.
Tell me what the failure criteria is for compression?
Where does it say the seller must make the aircraft airworthy to complete a pre buy? annual or not.

Who's opinion was the airworthiness based upon?
 
DutchessFlier said:
I just walked out of a $22K annual this year on my 172N. PM me and I'll tell you how and why..starting with a Top Overhaul at 1400hrs and 24yrs SMOH, (ie. the 180 Conversion in 1988) that put on four New Steel Lyc Jugs, Rebuilt Mags, a host of work in the engine components while the cylinders were off, a JPI-EDM700 installation, plus the usual array of squawks and AD's...and the folks who know tell me I did well.....

But yeah, take all the money you have, hand it over to whomever you need to and it's worth every penny.
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Tell me why you bought any aircraft needing that much maintenance?
 
Tom-D said:
Where does it say the seller must make the aircraft airworthy to complete a pre buy? annual or not.
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If it is a condition of the sale it will be specified in the bill of sale. Otherwise, the buyer accepts the condition of the aircraft as-is which should also be noted in the bill of sale.
 
Fearless Tower said:
If it is a condition of the sale it will be specified in the bill of sale. Otherwise, the buyer accepts the condition of the aircraft as-is which should also be noted in the bill of sale.
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Why would a seller sign a contract that stipulates any thing close to that?

dumber than a rock..
 
Henning said:
WOW!:thumbsup: That is one of the better exercises in futility I have seen yet.:cheerswine:
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Henning said:
Reality, you can at best figure a range +/- 50% of whatever number you minutely calculate for the future budgeting. That factor parlays against everything else the future may bring you.

Buy the plane you can afford that does most of the thing you need it to do as well as one thing you want it to do that will always make you smile. In reality, that is what most of us spend our aviation $$$s on, something to make us smile.
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The spreadsheet is only to compare multiple models / years, against a standard. The standard being the planes I can rent. For $700 a month, i KNOW I can fly 7.3 hrs in the 172. If I buy a plane, I SHOULD be able to hit the hrs. calculated in the spreadsheet for a given year / model / etc, if I don't get hit with a nasty repair. But that's the risk side of owning.

Its for budgeting....yes, but only the overall average. Year to year, I don't expect to hit those numbers and your +/- 50% might be accurate.
 
Tom-D said:
Why would a seller sign a contract that stipulates any thing close to that?

dumber than a rock..
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Perhaps, but if the seller was an A&P and could address the items discovered for cheaper than the buyer could, then the seller might have a better chance to get the asking price.
 
Fearless Tower said:
If it is a condition of the sale it will be specified in the bill of sale. Otherwise, the buyer accepts the condition of the aircraft as-is which should also be noted in the bill of sale.
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get your terms right, there is no place to put that info on a FAA bill of sale. (8050-2)

What you are referring to is known as a sales contract. any smart seller will not sign one that favors the buyer in such a way.

Tha aircraft should be represented in a honest way, and priced accordingly. If you don't like that, take a hike.
 
Tom-D said:
get your terms right,
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pot_calls_kettle_black.jpg
 
Tom-D said:
What you are referring to is known as a sales contract. any smart seller will not sign one that favors the buyer in such a way.
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Yes, that is what I was thinking.

However, in a buyers market, which is what we have today, the seller (if they want to sell it bad enough) must choose their poison. If the seller doesn't want to fix it, then they are going to have to come down on the price.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Yes, that is what I was thinking.

However, in a buyers market, which is what we have today, the seller (if they want to sell it bad enough) must choose their poison. If the seller doesn't want to fix it, then they are going to have to come down on the price.
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When you are selling a POS in a bad market does not mean the seller must fix any thing.

How stupid is it to allow a buyer to tie up your A/C in any FBO with a $17,000 bill due?
 
Tom-D said:
When you are selling a POS in a bad market does not mean the seller must fix any thing.

How stupid is it to allow a buyer to tie up your A/C in any FBO with a $17,000 bill due?
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You are assuming the seller and buyer both know it's a POS, usually it's only the seller that is privy to that information, until after the purchase.:yikes:
If the sales agreement is structured properly, no one will have a bill in the event the plane isn't as represented. Buyer pays for inspection, seller and buyer agree to fix or not fix squawks, if deal proceeds, seller and buyer exchange money for title. If not seller flies plane home.
Not all, in fact most buyers aren't as savvy as you and should seek a professionals opinion as to the actual condition of the airplane.
The unfortunate reality is many owners have a very optimistic opinion of the airplane they are selling, they are all cream puffs to the guy that has owned it for 20 years.:mad2: So, a proper pre-buy inspection is the only way the average pilot can be sure they are getting what they pay for, no matter what they pay.:D
 
DutchessFlier said:
There are way too many aircraft sitting on tiedowns or in hangars not flying right now because their owners just cannot handle the cost of keeping them airworthy, and I am afraid that number is going to increase due to a number of factors we all know.
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Apathy and lack of funds will destroy more airframes in my lifetime, in the light GA fleet, than accidents will. :(
 
Tom-D said:
What you reflect in this post is a buyer attitude that I would have simply told you to go away.
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Any seller has that prerogative just as it is my prerogative to buy an airworthy aircraft. I'm not sorry in the least that I insisted on buying an aircraft I believed to be airworthy. If that bothers you then perhaps you're the one with a poor attitude.

Tom-D said:
Tell me what the failure criteria is for compression?
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The engine manufacturer's set that number.

Tom-D said:
Where does it say the seller must make the aircraft airworthy to complete a pre buy? annual or not.
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It said it in the sales contract that the owner and I signed. No one had to like it but the seller and the buyer.

Tom-D said:
Who's opinion was the airworthiness based upon?
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In this particular case, a mutually agreeable A&P IA. After the bad news came in the seller said he wouldn't sell the aircraft until it was fixed. I stuck by my side of the deal and bought it once it was fixed. You may not like me as a buyer but I honored the contract.
 
Tom-D said:
When you are selling a POS in a bad market does not mean the seller must fix any thing.

How stupid is it to allow a buyer to tie up your A/C in any FBO with a $17,000 bill due?
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Almost as stupid as buying a plane in the first plane. The deal is whatever two people work out. The seller didn't have to go with it, but likely couldn't make a deal without. He wanted out of his money pit and didn't realize scrapping it would bring him more.
 
Henning said:
He wanted out of his money pit and didn't realize scrapping it would bring him more.
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(serious question) So, what would scapping it yield?
 
N747JB said:
You are assuming the seller and buyer both know it's a POS, usually it's only the seller that is privy to that information, until after the purchase.:yikes:
If the sales agreement is structured properly, no one will have a bill in the event the plane isn't as represented. Buyer pays for inspection, seller and buyer agree to fix or not fix squawks, if deal proceeds, seller and buyer exchange money for title. If not seller flies plane home.
Not all, in fact most buyers aren't as savvy as you and should seek a professionals opinion as to the actual condition of the airplane.
The unfortunate reality is many owners have a very optimistic opinion of the airplane they are selling, they are all cream puffs to the guy that has owned it for 20 years.:mad2: So, a proper pre-buy inspection is the only way the average pilot can be sure they are getting what they pay for, no matter what they pay.:D
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My assumption was he saw the $17,000 bill and bought the aircraft anyway, then as he stated he paid $22,000 more at his first annual. That begs the question how good was that Annual/prebuy?

I hope the aircraft is in great condition now, because he could have bought a great one for was has been spent getting that aircraft thru the purchase, and first year.
 
Henning said:
Almost as stupid as buying a plane in the first plane.
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There ya go.

Today I saw a slip in the window of a C-177 that has sat on the ramp for a very long time, I was curious and went to look, it Read: "this aircraft will belong to the first person who signs this bill of sale"

That got me to scratch my head and break out the cell and call the lady that we pay rent to, she told me how much parking ramp fees were due to the owner. I thought to my self, No wonder, the C-177 isn't worth what it owes the airport.

Yet as I sat there a guy pulled the slip and signed it.:mad2:
 
Tom-D said:
My assumption was he saw the $17,000 bill and bought the aircraft anyway, then as he stated he paid $22,000 more at his first annual. That begs the question how good was that Annual/prebuy?

I hope the aircraft is in great condition now, because he could have bought a great one for was has been spent getting that aircraft thru the purchase, and first year.
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Tom - you're mixing up a couple of different posters. I'm the one who bought an aircraft after the owner paid 17,000 to repair problems found in the pre-buy. The original poster just had a 22,000 annual.

Yes, I did have an expensive first annual (less than 10,000) but that was caused by an engine mount problem. In hindsight, I believe the engine mount was broken by a tug driver turning the nose gear too far. That kind of problem can happen at any time and if the tug driver doesn't own up, whatcha gonna do?
 
Clark1961 said:
Tom - you're mixing up a couple of different posters. I'm the one who bought an aircraft after the owner paid 17,000 to repair problems found in the pre-buy. The original poster just had a 22,000 annual.

Yes, I did have an expensive first annual (less than 10,000) but that was caused by an engine mount problem. In hindsight, I believe the engine mount was broken by a tug driver turning the nose gear too far. That kind of problem can happen at any time and if the tug driver doesn't own up, whatcha gonna do?
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That may be. But an engine mount is at best a 3k fix, where is the other $?
 
Tom-D said:
That may be. But an engine mount is at best a 3k fix, where is the other $?
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The engine mount is 3K + freight, gotta pull the engine and re-install. Re-sealed all external rubber bits on engine, overhauled mags, brakes, one main tire replaced, disassembled trim system for inspection (A&P new to Cherokee and thought something was wrong), re-tensioned all control cables, cleaned and primed the battery shelf, and I think that's most of it. It was less than 10,000 so it didn't add up to 7,000 but it was over 5,000 before it was all done.

Maybe I overpaid but I'm not complaining at all. The shop did a good job. The only post annual compliant was the TIT probe wire was left off. No biggie and fixed in about 10 minutes.
 
Bob Noel said:
(serious question) So, what would scapping it yield?
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Depends on the equipment and condition of the wings and tail and bits that people need are. Figure around $25k+ (but there is time, storage and labor involved, it doesn't scrap out over night, although with eBay it probably sells off faster than it used to...) for a good condition 172 with a last gen Silver Crown stack or similar in the panel. Not sure what Aluminum goes for these days on the leftover, but I can tell you, recyclers I've dealt with hate airplanes and they do not bring premium grade value.
 
Clark1961 said:
Tom - you're mixing up a couple of different posters. I'm the one who bought an aircraft after the owner paid 17,000 to repair problems found in the pre-buy. The original poster just had a 22,000 annual.

Yes, I did have an expensive first annual (less than 10,000) but that was caused by an engine mount problem. In hindsight, I believe the engine mount was broken by a tug driver turning the nose gear too far. That kind of problem can happen at any time and if the tug driver doesn't own up, whatcha gonna do?
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File a claim anyway if you want. If you say that's how it happened, and there is the slightest evidence to back your assessment (if they even bother to ask), most likely your insurance will pay.
 
Henning said:
Depends on the equipment and condition of the wings and tail and bits that people need are. Figure around $25k+ (but there is time, storage and labor involved, it doesn't scrap out over night, although with eBay it probably sells off faster than it used to...) for a good condition 172 with a last gen Silver Crown stack or similar in the panel. Not sure what Aluminum goes for these days on the leftover, but I can tell you, recyclers I've dealt with hate airplanes and they do not bring premium grade value.
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Aircraft salvage is no longer the trade it once was. Wentworth is no longer disassembling any aircraft they will sell on site, and no longer bring any whole aircraft home to Minn.
So, if you don't have a customer waiting you'll be stuck with the mess and paying storage.
 
So Mike.....

I'll go back to your original question and hopefully provide some helpful, factual information.

My flight club has owned an Archer for 6 years now. The plane flies between 150 and 180 hours a year and is kept in good condition. The last overhaul was $22K. We have been putting $14 an hour into escrow for the engine and prop overhauls and that seems to be working out well. I see you have $17.41 for overhaul escrow now. You may consider adding a couple dollars to that, as you have only half the hours to make up the cost of an overhaul. After the first overhaul, you can drop that down. The actual maintenance cost per hour for our club's Archer has ranged from $48 - $25 an hour, including annuals. We have seen the maintenance costs dropping since we have owned the plane. The first couple years you will spend more money getting to know the aircraft and working out all the bugs.

The Archer is a great platform for the relatively short cross-countries that you describe and a solid aircraft for you and your wife to get your instrument ratings in. Make sure the plane you buy has the avionics in it that you want for your IR. They say that an owner only re-coops half the cost of avionics upon sale of an aircraft. Make that work in your favor and let someone else upgrade the panel before you buy the plane.

Whatever you choose, don't fixate on the costs. Plan for them, but don't obsess over them. Enjoy the plane and use it for things that you could never do without it.
 
That spreadsheet looks really nice...... However that spreadsheet does not own an airplane be prepared to spend spend spend!!!!! Part 43 will mean a lot to you after your first heart attack emergency repair bill, I bought a 72 cherokee 140 in December and mind you it's a very sound and capable plane...........however I have had to replace the vacuum pump, rear stabilator (my fault hangar rash incident) directional gyro, exhaust gas temperature gauge, and all of these things were working perfectly when I purchased the plane, so be prepared for the unexpected to rear it's ugly head but there's nothing in the world as awesome as your first plane! Enjoy
 
Thanks for the detailed reply MN_Flyer. Boy do I wish there was a good club near me. The only one I've found is the Flying Neutrons based at KISZ. They're almost as expensive as owning when I factor in two pilots in my household, and they're at Blue Ash, so who knows if they'll have a base in 6 months.

I wonder how hard it is to start a club.... :dunno:
 
68, we have a friend who owns a pitts and an archer in partnership. he does alot of part 43 maintenance on both, and I plan to abuse the relationship as much as possible once we get ours purchased. Hi Eric! :)
 
Anthony said:
Really? At what percentage power, at what altitude?
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I figure 9GPH for an average calculation. The past four years, my club's actual fuel consumption for the Archer has been 9.3, 9.2, 8.4, and 7.8GPH flying at least 150 hours a year. This is with a variety of pilots all flying different types of missions from pattern flying to long cross-countries. Our consumption has dropped considerably since the addition of a JPI engine analyzer and the proper training of our pilots.

Although 9GPH may not be the ideal number to use for flight planning on trips, I think it is a safe number to use when estimating overall cost of operation.
 
MN_Flyer said:
I figure 9GPH for an average calculation. The past four years, my club's actual fuel consumption for the Archer has been 9.3, 9.2, 8.4, and 7.8GPH flying at least 150 hours a year. This is with a variety of pilots all flying different types of missions from pattern flying to long cross-countries. Our consumption has dropped considerably since the addition of a JPI engine analyzer and the proper training of our pilots.

Although 9GPH may not be the ideal number to use for flight planning on trips, I think it is a safe number to use when estimating overall cost of operation.
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Got it. So you are taking inot consideration, taxi, decent, pattern, etc. Makes sense. I was thinking that was a little low as an in flight fuel burn because I use 10 GPH for the Tiger, which also has an O-360 Lyc.
 
MN_Flyer said:
I figure 9GPH for an average calculation. The past four years, my club's actual fuel consumption for the Archer has been 9.3, 9.2, 8.4, and 7.8GPH flying at least 150 hours a year. This is with a variety of pilots all flying different types of missions from pattern flying to long cross-countries. Our consumption has dropped considerably since the addition of a JPI engine analyzer and the proper training of our pilots.

Although 9GPH may not be the ideal number to use for flight planning on trips, I think it is a safe number to use when estimating overall cost of operation.
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What TAS are you getting out of that archer?
 
Pretty decent estimate. I ran some numbers a while back and I got approx the same figures.I have also seen spreadsheets where people account for opportunity cost.

Plus, you have to consider what use is an airplane if you can only schedule it for at most a day at a time? And getting phone calls from the fbo/school to bring it back. I bet you would get tired of renting a 172 just to fly circles in the local area. Pretty much like having a car only to drive it on the parking lot, gets old.

I would say don't think to much of the costs, go for it, and enjoy. Life's to short and for all i know we could all be death by tomorrow.

cheers and good flying.
 
hindsight2020 said:
What TAS are you getting out of that archer?
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Our Archer seems to cruise at 115-118 TAS flying around 5,000 at 65%. That being said, the GPS always seems to verify a headwind no matter which direction I am going. I think I'm just bad luck.
 
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