Cost to Own

darthnomster

darthnomster

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Cincinnati, OH
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FlyLikeAGirl'sHubs
I know this subject has been probably beat to death, but here goes. Wife and I are both very low time PP's. We're interested in buying an aircraft for our personal use. Mission is likely to be somewhat frequent $150 cheeseburgers (~100-~150nm), visiting our daughter at THE Ohio State University (~100NM),occasional longer (500nm) distance XC's, almost all in the midwest/southeast (based in Cincinnati, OH).

We'll both get our IR in this plane sometime in the next couple of years.

I'm trying to capture costs. Is this a good start?
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1328042/Aircraft Purchase.xlsx

I know there have been some posts about this in the past, but the links to spreadsheets that I've found are broken.

Interested in hearing if I've captured the right costs, and if the numbers seem ballpark.

Have a look at the plane and let me know what you think too!
 
looks pretty good. What about reserves for other short lived items: avionics, tires, interior, etc.?
 
You have a figure of 20k for an engine overhaul. I think that's a bit low.

and a figure of 2k for an annual. that's probably high.
 
Tom-D said:
and a figure of 2k for an annual. that's probably high.
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Except that he doesn't have any additional budget line for 'other than annual' maintenance like oil changes....fixing crap that breaks between annuals...etc. I'd say that is a good figure....maybe even bump it up to $2500 per year to cover everything.
 
Looks like a good start on costs.

Insurance should come down quickly but you might find better now by shopping around.

Annual is high for a small shop but maybe a big shop/FBO would gouge that much. OTOH, unscheduled maintenance will run up towards 1 AMU a year and you'll want to look at avionic upgrades (it just happens, none of us admit that we want better radios, etc.).

Price seems high for an Archer but it does look nice - similar paint job to my Frankenkota (Turbo Dakota).

Anyway, the correct answer to the question of how much money it takes to own an aircraft is: "All of it" :D
 
I don't have a single customer that spends 2000 bucks per year on little stuff that goes wrong per year.

A new set of tires, new plugs and servicing and inspecting the aircraft should be well under 1000 bucks.

If you are willing to spend that much can I be your A&P-IA?
 
Mike, I think you've got a good start, as for numbers I think the insurance and annual seem just a tad high and the engine OH a few thousand low. You have not accounted for general Mx such as oil changes etc perhaps I'd add $5.00 per hour for that. As for the loan I'm not sure they have 20 year aircraft loans I thought they were only 10 or 15 but I could be way off. I also think the interest rate is a point to low but perhaps thats what you have been qouted.

If you haven't done it yet register for AOPAs APA site ( aircraft partnership assoc) They have a very good cost to own calculator that you can use.

Best of luck with the purchase.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Except that he doesn't have any additional budget line for 'other than annual' maintenance like oil changes....fixing crap that breaks between annuals...etc. I'd say that is a good figure....maybe even bump it up to $2500 per year to cover everything.
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How much do you believe an oil change should cost?

8qt. of oil............ ?
filter ..................?
disposal of the oil. ?
labor..................?
 
Tom-D said:
I don't have a single customer that spends 2000 bucks per year on little stuff that goes wrong per year.

A new set of tires, new plugs and servicing and inspecting the aircraft should be well under 1000 bucks.

If you are willing to spend that much can I be your A&P-IA?
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Tom, if you came down here (Southern California) you'd have to raise your rates.....or you would be busier than a one-legged man in an ass-kickin' contest.

That is why I spend so much time on this and the 170 board asking maintenance questions.....so I can avoid the $80/hr labor charge just to troubleshoot something!
 
Tom-D said:
I don't have a single customer that spends 2000 bucks per year on little stuff that goes wrong per year.

A new set of tires, new plugs and servicing and inspecting the aircraft should be well under 1000 bucks.

If you are willing to spend that much can I be your A&P-IA?
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My first annual was well north of that. The previous owner had deferred all sorts of maintainance (owner assisted with a very lax A&P). The hoses were pushing 15 years old, the starter needed to be rebuilt, sheet metal repairs, fuel valve not working right, exhaust leak, prop needed to be rebuilt and many other little things that my first A&P failed to catch on the presale. I started out with an independent A&P who "saved" me all kinds of money and paid a big price down the road. Also, my first year, the transponder failed, the audio panel failed (two buttons stuck in) and the turn coordinator failed twice (bad rebuilt). Knock on wood, my second year has been much cheaper, but the annual is next month, we will see. Plane ownership is expensive and shortcuts will kill you. I would rather pay more and know it is done right.
 
John221us said:
My first annual was well north of that. The previous owner had deferred all sorts of maintainance (owner assisted with a very lax A&P). The hoses were pushing 15 years old, the starter needed to be rebuilt, sheet metal repairs, fuel valve not working right, exhaust leak, prop needed to be rebuilt and many other little things that my first A&P failed to catch on the presale. I started out with an independent A&P who "saved" me all kinds of money and paid a big price down the road. Also, my first year, the transponder failed, the audio panel failed (two buttons stuck in) and the turn coordinator failed twice (bad rebuilt). Knock on wood, my second year has been much cheaper, but the annual is next month, we will see. Plane ownership is expensive and shortcuts will kill you. I would rather pay more and know it is done right.
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first Annuals don't count.. what one owner thinks is good enough, is another owners junk.
 
small tweak: I'd change your cells I2, I3 and I4 to be like: =H2*(C5/12)

That way you can easily change the hours flown per year (C5) from 120 and the figures are automatically updated.
 
First, any of the 150-180HP simple all-metal fixed-gear singles such as those listed below should meet your needs just fine, while providing a relatively uncomplicated entry into aircraft ownership:
  • Cessna 172/177 Skyhawk/Cardinal (including the 180HP STC'd 172's)
  • Piper PA28-series Cherokee/Warrior/Archer
  • Grumman AA-5/5A/5B Traveler/Cheetah/Tiger
  • Beech 19/23 Sport/Sundowner
Examine (and prefereably fly) all of them and see which one tickles your fancy the most.

As for cost, I prepared a paper on ownership costs of planes of this sort which I'll send to anyone who emails me. Email only, thank you -- no PM's, posts, phone calls, smoke signals, or ESP thought waves, please.
 
I've been compiling a spreadsheet for about a year now looking at planes. Send me an IM with your email address if you'd like a copy. This is my latest revision, and has most of the costs / options covered. You can input your numbers and get the monthly and hourly costs, then compare 4 planes in a separate window.

Airplane.jpg
 
it costs everything you've got and it doesn't matter if you're flying glider's or pressurized twins. and it's worth every penny.
 
it costs everything you've got and it doesn't matter if you're flying glider's or pressurized twins. and it's worth every penny.
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Yep! What else can you spend you money on that is as gratifying as flying?
 
THANK YOU for the great feedback.

Here's V2 of the worksheet.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1328042/Aircraft Purchase II.xlsx

Improved? One of the guys we're considering partnering with listed "Newer 182/172/archer/dakota" on his list, so I'm starting to add those in.

What's a good non-turbo 182 model to look at? I know nothing about Cessnas. We trained in a DA-20, so the wife and I are partial to low-wing.
 
darthnomster said:
What's a good non-turbo 182 model to look at? I know nothing about Cessnas. We trained in a DA-20, so the wife and I are partial to low-wing.
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That's a tough question. With so many having been produced, there's a ton to choose from in all sorts of prices and configurations.

Everything from the really old straight tails to the "restart" steam gauges and on and on.

Not a huge amount of "gotchas" either.

Our bird (a 1975 P model) was very low time but had been flown quite a bit by owner #2 and he'd put a zero-time prop on it, new paint, new bladders (didn't help as much as expected, one failed at 7 years), and newish King avionics in the 90s.

The mechanic at pre-buy (or so I heard, I bought into the LLC later) said, "If you don't buy it, the next person looking for a 182 through that door, will."

That was after a couple year search by my co-owners and two of four "committed" purchasers dropping out of the LLC.

They're honest airplanes if someone has taken care of them, no corrosion, no damage history, and a ton of other "little" stuff. The O-470 likes to be run hard and doesn't do lean-of-peak worth a damn due to uneven induction system. It's a huge fat old-school engine that likes its fuel.

I always call it the 80% airplane. It won't do any specialty 100%, but it'll do all specialties to at least 80% of most airplanes. Heavy-haul, 80%. Unimproved airports, 80%. Fast, 80%. Comfortable cabin, 80% (maybe better). Mountain/High DA, without the turbo... 80%. Number of seats, 80% (because everyone once in a while has a mission that a six-seater would have been perfect for). TBO, 80% (haha, it's 1500 hours on most of the fleet if you care about TBO, instead of the more common 2000).

I'll take the perfect 80/20 airplane over the other's. Just my opinion.

(Noticed you listed the Dakota too. Same thing. 80%. Low wing and maybe slightly lower price. Maybe.)
 
I just walked out of a $22K annual this year on my 172N. PM me and I'll tell you how and why..starting with a Top Overhaul at 1400hrs and 24yrs SMOH, (ie. the 180 Conversion in 1988) that put on four New Steel Lyc Jugs, Rebuilt Mags, a host of work in the engine components while the cylinders were off, a JPI-EDM700 installation, plus the usual array of squawks and AD's...and the folks who know tell me I did well.....

But yeah, take all the money you have, hand it over to whomever you need to and it's worth every penny.
 
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I tend to recommend Cherokees to those not in need of a roomy back seat. You get a bit of a price break from Cessnas, the airplane should be just a bit faster, and it is as simple as it gets. However, I own a Cherokee, so am hopelessly biased. You have one complication in the horizon in that you are about to loose a local airport, as word has it that Blue Ash will soon join the passenger pigeon and the dinosaurs. That could change the hangar situation markedly, making an early entrance into the fun-filled adventure that is aircraft ownership advisable.
 
DutchessFlier said:
I just walked out of a $22K annual this year on my 172N. PM me and I'll tell you how and why..starting with a Top Overhaul at 1400hrs and 24yrs SMOH, (ie. the 180 Conversion in 1988) that put on four New Steel Lyc Jugs, Rebuilt Mags, a host of work in the engine components while the cylinders were off, a JPI-EDM700 installation, plus the usual array of squawks and AD's...and the folks who know tell me I did well.....
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I'm guessing that the annual inspection itself was only about $2K, and the other $20K was upgrades, maintenance, and repairs coincident with the annual, most of which were not required.
 
Ron Levy said:
I'm guessing that the annual inspection itself was only about $2K, and the other $20K was upgrades, maintenance, and repairs coincident with the annual, most of which were not required.
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More like the annual inspection was $200.

(I figured I'd say it before Jim does)
 
Ron Levy said:
I'm guessing that the annual inspection itself was only about $2K, and the other $20K was upgrades, maintenance, and repairs coincident with the annual, most of which were not required.
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What practical purpose is served by typing this? The aircraft does not get signed off as airworthy until the repairs are made. For all practical purposes, the annual did cost much more than the simple labor cost for the inspection.
 
DutchessFlier said:
I just walked out of a $22K annual this year on my 172N. PM me and I'll tell you how and why..starting with a Top Overhaul at 1400hrs and 24yrs SMOH, (ie. the 180 Conversion in 1988) that put on four New Steel Lyc Jugs, Rebuilt Mags, a host of work in the engine components while the cylinders were off, a JPI-EDM700 installation, plus the usual array of squawks and AD's...and the folks who know tell me I did well.....

But yeah, take all the money you have, hand it over to whomever you need to and it's worth every penny.
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That was an easy annual (need to do) coupled with a bunch of nice to do.
 
steingar said:
I tend to recommend Cherokees to those not in need of a roomy back seat. You get a bit of a price break from Cessnas, the airplane should be just a bit faster, and it is as simple as it gets. However, I own a Cherokee, so am hopelessly biased. You have one complication in the horizon in that you are about to loose a local airport, as word has it that Blue Ash will soon join the passenger pigeon and the dinosaurs. That could change the hangar situation markedly, making an early entrance into the fun-filled adventure that is aircraft ownership advisable.
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We trained at KISZ, and it's across the street from my office. It will be sad to see it closed. That said, I also live about five minutes from KLUK, so we were more likely to hangar there. Most of the aircraft based at Blue Ash appear to be on tie downs. The extremely kind folks of Blue Ash Aviation will be finding a new home, and I doubt it will be at Lunken.:(
 
My most recent plane, a steam gauge IFR certified 1964 PA-28-160 (never a 140, it came from Piper as a 160) cost $55/hr. That includes fuel and oil, and $12/hr engine reserve. The last yr of ownership was 2008.

I think insurance should be considered separate from a/c costs primarily because premiums are based on pilot qualifications. My insurance was $683 annually through a broker located at KVNY, owned and operated by two commercial pilots. Earning the Instrument Rating will factor significantly in decreasing your premiums. For a 'spam can' like the Cherokee airframe, time in type may not even be a factor.

Purchase price was $19,000. I put another $15,000 into the plane due to deferred mx on the part of previous owner.

Annuals nicked me for plugs and dinner for two. Always owner-assisted. Always...I recommend it. Even when you think you have no time for it.

Every A&P or technician pronounced it a cream puff. I was too paranoid to believe them. I became a believer when I heard and saw it fly away in the twilight when I sold it. I don't know what this means in this thread.
 
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Clark1961 said:
What practical purpose is served by typing this? The aircraft does not get signed off as airworthy until the repairs are made. For all practical purposes, the annual did cost much more than the simple labor cost for the inspection.
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I doubt an engine overhaul and installation of a full engine monitoring system were required for airworthiness. As such, suggesting the "annual" cost $22K is highly misleading to anyone contemplating ownership and trying to figure the annualized costs.
 
TripleZ said:
I've been compiling a spreadsheet for about a year now looking at planes. Send me an IM with your email address if you'd like a copy. This is my latest revision, and has most of the costs / options covered. You can input your numbers and get the monthly and hourly costs, then compare 4 planes in a separate window.
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WOW!:thumbsup: That is one of the better exercises in futility I have seen yet.:cheerswine:
 
Reality, you can at best figure a range +/- 50% of whatever number you minutely calculate for the future budgeting. That factor parlays against everything else the future may bring you.

Buy the plane you can afford that does most of the thing you need it to do as well as one thing you want it to do that will always make you smile. In reality, that is what most of us spend our aviation $$$s on, something to make us smile.
 
wabower said:
Even funnier that he might actually believe it;)
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I meet two kinds of owners in this (yacht) industry, the ones that want receipts and the ones that don't. The ones that want receipts are always stressed and out of yachting after a few years; the ones that don't, enjoy their toy and stay in it for life.
 
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Ron Levy said:
I doubt an engine overhaul and installation of a full engine monitoring system were required for airworthiness. As such, suggesting the "annual" cost $22K is highly misleading to anyone contemplating ownership and trying to figure the annualized costs.
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Hold On Folks:

The bulk of the expense was the Top Overhaul. 3 of my 4 cylinders had valve/valve guide issues, then failed analysis at Penn Yan, and could not be overhauled due to internal cracks in the exhaust ports, and this was an issue of airworthiness of that engine. I decided to go with new OEM jugs from Lycoming that were first sent to Penn Yan to be spec'd out and then shipped to my shop, that cost me 6K in parts alone. The notion that this is misleading, Ron, is a foolish assumption on your part. This is the reality of owning an aircraft. A reality that you should know better than almost anyone here. Other than the newly added monitoring system, which to me was a good move along with the top overhaul, all of the work done on my aircraft was for both airworthiness issues and preventive MX. Nothing was cosmetic. If you like, I can scan the invoice and detailed breakdown of hours and work done and send it to you for your approval.

Telling anyone that they can get away with an annual at a given price point, whatever that is, (I'm not talking about the inspection alone) is downright foolish, misleading , and dangerous.
 
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Overhauls are relatively predictable, and should be costed out over time, with a reserve account established to cover that cost, not dropped into one year's expenses. To say that an overhaul is part of one's annual expenses for the year in which it is accomplished is to ignore all the years of operating that engine "free" between overhauls. Other long-term accruals to consider include paint and interior. If you read my paper, this is discussed in detail.
 
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