Cost to build T-hangers

Frogs97

Frogs97

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Frogs97
In contrast to all the stories about dying airports in some areas, hangar space around here seems really hard to come by. Does anyone know what the approx cost is to build a 6-8 plane T-hangar structure? With plenty of land and multi-year waiting lists, I'm wondering why many of these airports aren't interested in building more hangars.
 
Frogs97 said:
In contrast to all the stories about dying airports in some areas, hangar space around here seems really hard to come by. Does anyone know what the approx cost is to build a 6-8 plane T-hangar structure? With plenty of land and multi-year waiting lists, I'm wondering why many of these airports aren't interested in building more hangars.
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Because generally the larger an organization gets, the further up their ass their head is. The only way they can build hangars is if the entire cost can be fit into one year's budget. Doesn't matter if they can come out ahead in 5 years. It's always a myopic single year view.

Had a customer we could have saved over $200,000 year in materials, but because they didn't have an extra $25,000 in their budget for that month they said no.
 
Frogs97 said:
In contrast to all the stories about dying airports in some areas, hangar space around here seems really hard to come by. Does anyone know what the approx cost is to build a 6-8 plane T-hangar structure? With plenty of land and multi-year waiting lists, I'm wondering why many of these airports aren't interested in building more hangars.
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Figure $20/sf for the building and pad. Add the cost of the utilities and fire protection, plus the cost of grading, underground work (drainage), and paving the ramp.

It ain't cheap.
 
Frogs97 said:
In contrast to all the stories about dying airports in some areas, hangar space around here seems really hard to come by. Does anyone know what the approx cost is to build a 6-8 plane T-hangar structure? With plenty of land and multi-year waiting lists, I'm wondering why many of these airports aren't interested in building more hangars.
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In addition to the other comments, there's usually government red-tape involved. Most airports are owned by public entities, which means contracting rules apply, plus zoning, plus building approvals. Most privately-funded hangars are on a land-lease with the airport, who sees a revenue stream. And almost all have provisions that the buildings revert to airport ownership after a period of time (10/20/30 years).

It's a good 3-5 year process at most places to get something like that done. In addition, there are a numbe of municipalities that would prefer to have the ariport "go away", and doing hangars will be prohibitive when the cost is considered over the lifespan... you lose a lot of flexibility when you put in structures.

I know of a towered, municipal airport that's been working fro 2-3 years on a master plan that involves tearing down and replacing hangars (and putting in self-serve pumps). I estimate another 2-3 years before anything happens.
 
Frogs97 said:
In contrast to all the stories about dying airports in some areas, hangar space around here seems really hard to come by. Does anyone know what the approx cost is to build a 6-8 plane T-hangar structure? With plenty of land and multi-year waiting lists, I'm wondering why many of these airports aren't interested in building more hangars.
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That's a good question. I'm am one who commented in a recent thread about dying airports. Ours appears to be dying, but because there's nothing there for anyone to use, and therefore, nobody comes. No hangars, no gas, no services of any kind, not even running water. The city's logic is that there is not enough traffic to justify spending money on structures. Of course there's not enough traffic to justify building things! There's no things to attract traffic! In these parts, almost nobody keeps an airplane outside, due to the weather, so hangar space or at least covered parking is an absolute must to have any chance of attracting people to use the airport.

I have been wondering what t-hangars would cost to build. At some point, I would like to approach the city leaders with some hard numbers and a presentation on how building some could be a benefit. I would also like to get an idea how much a covered parking structure might cost as an alternative to private t-hangars. Any info on this subject would be nice to have.

Thanks to the OP for posting the question. I'll be watching your thread.
 
Bone-headed city leaders.

A well-planned airport growth initiative can secure 90% of cost from AIP funds (federal money from the aviation trust fund.)

!

OkieFlyer said:
That's a good question. I'm am one who commented in a recent thread about dying airports. Ours appears to be dying, but because there's nothing there for anyone to use, and therefore, nobody comes. No hangars, no gas, no services of any kind, not even running water. The city's logic is that there is not enough traffic to justify spending money on structures. Of course there's not enough traffic to justify building things! There's no things to attract traffic! In these parts, almost nobody keeps an airplane outside, due to the weather, so hangar space or at least covered parking is an absolute must to have any chance of attracting people to use the airport.

I have been wondering what t-hangars would cost to build. At some point, I would like to approach the city leaders with some hard numbers and a presentation on how building some could be a benefit. I would also like to get an idea how much a covered parking structure might cost as an alternative to private t-hangars. Any info on this subject would be nice to have.

Thanks to the OP for posting the question. I'll be watching your thread.
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The only thing that you will be able to get a meaningful number on is the cost of the concrete pad and erected building itself. Everything else is greatly variable. Soil technical testing may show that you need to excavate four feet and back fill with compacted shale to have suitable support for the building. How much of a taxiway are you going to have to put in? Taxiway and apron base may also require excavation and back fill. How far are you going to run power lines? Do they have to be underground?

In Arkansas, if an airport has committments from future occupants, state grants (20/80 & 90/10) are available to build and most cities are willing to provide the local match at 10 cents and 20 cents on the dollar. The project will exceed the limit for a 90/10 grant but you might use an 80/20 for one phase (pavement) and a 90/10 for the other (building). Every state is going to be different.

Most airports are willing to lease land to you to build a private hangar but it will revert to the airport in 50 years maximum and usually less. FAA guidance is to provide a lease long enough for the builder to amortize his investment but in no case longer than 50 yrs. Expect to pay 20 cents per ft. squared per year or more for the lease (Arkansas) with inflation indexed increases over the period of the lease. The airport might be willing to do some of the pavement.

Some people form corporations for building nested Tee hangars. You own shares of the corporation proportional to the square feet of your portion of the total building.
 
kyleb said:
Figure $20/sf for the building and pad. Add the cost of the utilities and fire protection, plus the cost of grading, underground work (drainage), and paving the ramp.

It ain't cheap.
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In our case at 1K2, all we need to do is add on to the end of the existing nested t-hangars. Electricity is there, drainage is there, roads and pavement are there. It's almost as if they planned for future hangars many years ago and never did it. We could add 4-5 hangars and double our capacity without much effort at all.

I did say earlier that we had NO hangers. We do have 4 hangars. I meant to say that we don't have any available. One comes available maybe once every 5-10 years.
 
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OkieFlyer said:
That's a good question. I'm am one who commented in a recent thread about dying airports. Ours appears to be dying, but because there's nothing there for anyone to use, and therefore, nobody comes. No hangars, no gas, no services of any kind, not even running water. The city's logic is that there is not enough traffic to justify spending money on structures. Of course there's not enough traffic to justify building things! There's no things to attract traffic! In these parts, almost nobody keeps an airplane outside, due to the weather, so hangar space or at least covered parking is an absolute must to have any chance of attracting people to use the airport.

I have been wondering what t-hangars would cost to build. At some point, I would like to approach the city leaders with some hard numbers and a presentation on how building some could be a benefit. I would also like to get an idea how much a covered parking structure might cost as an alternative to private t-hangars. Any info on this subject would be nice to have.

Thanks to the OP for posting the question. I'll be watching your thread.
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Attracting traffic != to use of hangars.

For hangars, I'd start with determining the rental price that folks are willing to pay. Then estimate a cost and amount that the city will charge for rentals. Figure the amortization and a reasonable cap rate. That'll tell you the feasibility. Remember that pilots are notoriously cheap.

It's very difficult to make it work. The issue is the same as apartment landlordship or hotel rooms. Vacancies detract from potential profit. There's a reason no one has stepped up: profits on apartments and other real estate are higher. I've done the analysis in a couple of cities, and I did capital investment on specialty real estate for a number of years. It takes a special investor for specialty real estate, and the rate of return is not usually as good as you'd get elsewhere. Especially with GA numbers dropping.
 
SCCutler said:
Bone-headed city leaders.

A well-planned airport growth initiative can secure 90% of cost from AIP funds (federal money from the aviation trust fund.)

!
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But that would commit the municipality to continue to operate the airport as an airport for at least 20 years. However...

wsuffa said:
In addition, there are a number of municipalities that would prefer to have the ariport "go away",
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Having newly built hangars is just a practical consideration, pols have no trouble wasting OPM; but a grant assurance with the FAA behind it... I do not believe that every Mayor is willing to count on the leniency showed to Daley, Jr. over the untimely destruction of Meigs Field.
 
wsuffa said:
Attracting traffic != to use of hangars.

For hangars, I'd start with determining the rental price that folks are willing to pay. Then estimate a cost and amount that the city will charge for rentals. Figure the amortization and a reasonable cap rate. That'll tell you the feasibility. Remember that pilots are notoriously cheap.

It's very difficult to make it work. The issue is the same as apartment landlordship or hotel rooms. Vacancies detract from potential profit. There's a reason no one has stepped up: profits on apartments and other real estate are higher. I've done the analysis in a couple of cities, and I did capital investment on specialty real estate for a number of years. It takes a special investor for specialty real estate, and the rate of return is not usually as good as you'd get elsewhere. Especially with GA numbers dropping.
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Should we compare it to private housing though? It's a municipal airport. I don't see it as any different than the municipal swimming pool, the municipal golf course, municipal parks, the skateboard park, or the baseball/softball/soccer fields, none of which are money making endeavors. One difference , however, is that building a handful of hangars, perhaps even partially funded with grant money, WILL actually pay for itself. The other difference is that once they have paid for themselves, they'll generate more money than they will cost to maintain for a very long time. I rarely hear anyone gripe about the economics of the public pool or the parks, the golf course, etc. despite them being way more of a money pit than a few hangars would ever be. The losses that they turn in go on year after year after year, when the hangars would take care of themselves. People don't mind those other things draining the city treasure vault because, hey, we need parks, and pools, and golf courses, right?

Keep in mind were talking about a small town airport. Comparisons with using the property for housing development don't apply. I'm also talking about a project that would likely cost less than 200K to pull off. Maybe 4-6 more nested t-hangars, minimal ground prep required, electrical is already there, roads, taxiways, and apron in place already. Simply pour a slab and put up some metal.

According to our mayor, we are not eligible for some federal grants because we have less than 10 aircraft based there. Well, build 6 more hangars and they will be filled in a matter or months, and we'll be eligible. People simply won't keep their plane there without shelter, and we won't be eligible for grants without planes. We do have a waiting list. Give 'em a place to park, dang it!
 
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Do privately owned airports have the same red tape to contend with? Looking at the explosion of hangars at Hicks (T67) in the last 10-15 years, I can't imagine they do. But they also don't have any kind of instrument approach so I didn't know if that made a difference.
 
Back in the day you could drag a port a port to the apron, pull the wheels off it, bolt it together, secure it down and bada bing.
 
Whatever the price, if the airport authority builds them with federal dollars it multiplies by 3.
 
Peachtree DeKalb recently added some hangars, but had to close a short, seldom used runway to do so. From the time it was approved until it was done was in the two year range.

They still have a waiting list, I understand.
 
Frogs97 said:
In contrast to all the stories about dying airports in some areas, hangar space around here seems really hard to come by. Does anyone know what the approx cost is to build a 6-8 plane T-hangar structure? With plenty of land and multi-year waiting lists, I'm wondering why many of these airports aren't interested in building more hangars.
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Bear in mind that waiting lists are not an accurate picture of true demand. It usually costs nothing to get on a waiting list and so a load of these people are just wannabes, or guys that already have a hangar and hoping for a chance at a better one. Many people will try to "reserve" a hangar for the plane they think they will eventually own. Many just want the option for the hangar, but actually choke when push comes to shove.

I'll bet if you have 35 people on your wait list, only about 4-5 would actually pull the trigger and move in. Before you build new hangars, I would get people to commit to those hangars first with cash deposits and contracts.
 
Dav8or said:
I'll bet if you have 35 people on your wait list, only about 4-5 would actually pull the trigger and move in. Before you build new hangars, I would get people to commit to those hangars first with cash deposits and contracts.
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I'll buy that. Very doable in our case.
 
yeah it's silly...my home airport is on something like a 3 year waiting list for a t-hangar. You'd think someone would smell an opportunity there....

:dunno:
 
OkieFlyer said:
I'll buy that. Very doable in our case.
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Does your airport authority have the legal/contracting paperwork in place to provide land-leases ?
Does the airport have a master plan, is the area you would want to put the hangars on listed as 'aeronautical use' ?


If you have to pour pavement on your dime, consider putting up a carousel hangar. A 60x60 box will house 4 planes. You save yourself a fair amount of pavement and 3 doors. The carousel itself costs a nice penny, but if it is you and not the feds who pay for pavement and building, you make it up on the doors alone.
 

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weilke said:
Does your airport authority have the legal/contracting paperwork in place to provide land-leases ?
Does the airport have a master plan, is the area you would want to put the hangars on listed as 'aeronautical use' ?


If you have to pour pavement on your dime, consider putting up a carousel hangar. A 60x60 box will house 4 planes. You save yourself a fair amount of pavement and 3 doors. The carousel itself costs a nice penny, but if it is you and not the feds who pay for pavement and building, you make it up on the doors alone.
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I may not have made myself clear, but I don't intend to build anything on my dime (other than tax dollars). The objective is to convince the city that it's a good idea for them to build more hangars. I already have a hangar, but I am interested in making our airfield more useful for others. Hangars would be a first step, AND according to the city manager, increasing the number of tennants to 10 or more would make us eligible for more federal grants for further development. They have no interest in further development at this time, however. I'd like to convince them otherwise.

As mentioned before, the most logical thing to to is simply extend the existing hangars. Here's what it looks like.
Airport.jpg


I believe there is enough room to the west (left) of the existing hangars to add 6 nested tees. I would at least double the hangars to 8 total for starters. As mentioned before, basically all you'd have to do is pour the concrete and put up some metal. Minimal pavement needed. Easy peasy, lemon squeezy.
 
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OkieFlyer said:
I may not have made myself clear, but I don't intend to build anything on my dime (other than tax dollars). The objective is to convince the city that it's a good idea for them to build more hangars.
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Who governs your airport ? Is there an airport-board or is it simply a city department ?

I would start with a call to the state division of aeronautics. There is a 'funds person' who knows what grants are available to which level of airport. Some states receive 'block grants' out of the AIP and are able to use this money to fund projects at airports that are not in the national airport plan. Sometimes there are state level funds that dont require a federal match. To build this with government money requires working the government process and typically that takes a couple of years of legwork, sometimes including legislative help. The work will have to be bid on the state level or beyond and even after everything is approved, you are going to sit there for a another year waiting for appropriations to come through.

The reasons to build this as a private project would be:
- to get it done quicker
- to get it done cheaper
- to get it done the way you want it


-
 
weilke said:
Who governs your airport ? Is there an airport-board or is it simply a city department ?

I would start with a call to the state division of aeronautics. There is a 'funds person' who knows what grants are available to which level of airport. Some states receive 'block grants' out of the AIP and are able to use this money to fund projects at airports that are not in the national airport plan. Sometimes there are state level funds that dont require a federal match. To build this with government money requires working the government process and typically that takes a couple of years of legwork, sometimes including legislative help. The work will have to be bid on the state level or beyond and even after everything is approved, you are going to sit there for a another year waiting for appropriations to come through.

The reasons to build this as a private project would be:
- to get it done quicker
- to get it done cheaper
- to get it done the way you want it


-
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The city manager "runs" it, and the city counsel would vote on any improvements. We don't have an airport board or airport manager, and that's the main problem. There is nobody in the city government that knows or has anything to do with aviation. It's a small town, and the airport is wayyy down on the priority list.

I'm sure doing it myself would be all those things you mentioned, but the rules of the airport make doing so very unattractive. I would have to lobby the city counsel for some rule changes before I would even condsider it. I'm not a fan of spending my money on something that becomes the property of the city.
 
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OkieFlyer said:
I'm not a fan of spending my money on something that becomes the property of the city.
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That's generally how it works, after 15-20 years. Sometimes it is possible to extend your lease for another 5 years, maybe even twice. Once it expires, the hangar will lease at "normal" rates, since you will have had the duration of the lease at low rates to make up for your expense of building the hangar.
 
OkieFlyer said:
I rarely hear anyone gripe about the economics of the public pool or the parks, the golf course, etc.
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Don't worry, people show up to complain about those also. Constantly.

As the son of a parks director I would guess, actually, that fatigue plays a part. For the most part parks directors, city boards, airport boards, etc are pretty thankless jobs (often unpaid) with a lot of people ****ed off about every decision. Even the seeming no-brainers attract people who are furious (sometimes even justifiably so) about the decision.

Airport decisions, from day one, have the deck stacked against them because 1% of the population directly benefits and everyone else has to be shown a more complex formula that demonstrates a monetary benefit outweighing the costs of the project.
 
OkieFlyer said:
The city manager "runs" it, and the city counsel would vote on any improvements. We don't have an airport board or airport manager, and that's the main problem.
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Well, it is a problem, but on the other hand it doesn't look like you would upset anyone if you went to state aeronautics to see what can be done. City council people will gladly sign something that doesn't cost them much, is 'good for business' and comes with a ribbon cutting.
 
Hank S said:
That's generally how it works, after 15-20 years. Sometimes it is possible to extend your lease for another 5 years, maybe even twice. Once it expires, the hangar will lease at "normal" rates, since you will have had the duration of the lease at low rates to make up for your expense of building the hangar.
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As the rules stand currently, we can't build hangars and charge people to rent them.

rwellner98 said:
Don't worry, people show up to complain about those also. Constantly.

As the son of a parks director I would guess, actually, that fatigue plays a part. For the most part parks directors, city boards, airport boards, etc are pretty thankless jobs (often unpaid) with a lot of people ****ed off about every decision. Even the seeming no-brainers attract people who are furious (sometimes even justifiably so) about the decision.

Airport decisions, from day one, have the deck stacked against them because 1% of the population directly benefits and everyone else has to be shown a more complex formula that demonstrates a monetary benefit outweighing the costs of the project.
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I hear ya. I don't want to come off as bitter about anything. I would just like the airport to get some love too once in a great while. It's been 40 years or so since they built the existing hangars.

We have good people in our city government, and I'm thankful for each of them. That being said, the city manager, the mayor, and the 6 city counsel members that comprise our entire city government don't really give two chits about the ol' airport, but neither does the constituency.
 
rwellner98 said:
Don't worry, people show up to complain about those also. Constantly.

As the son of a parks director I would guess, actually, that fatigue plays a part. For the most part parks directors, city boards, airport boards, etc are pretty thankless jobs (often unpaid) with a lot of people ****ed off about every decision. Even the seeming no-brainers attract people who are furious (sometimes even justifiably so) about the decision.

Airport decisions, from day one, have the deck stacked against them because 1% of the population directly benefits and everyone else has to be shown a more complex formula that demonstrates a monetary benefit outweighing the costs of the project.
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That cuts both ways...

Take in point the sleepy little mythical town of Pindale Wy.. I proposed to build a 70 x70 box hangar on my own dime..

Guess what their terms were.

Ground lease would be locked in for ONE year at .40 cents a sq ft. After that it goes up at the whim of the board with no set % of rates... Terminates at 20 years..

I pay for ALL taxiways leading up to their worn out and failing taxiway....

I pay for ALL the utilities and upgrades to THEIR infrastructure they need for future other hangars to be built and I would be required to recover those funds from future builders....

I would have to build to their " new" building codes and their desires of what it would look like... Keep in mind the dozen of other hangars are marginally built, been there for decades..

New codes.... 120 MPH wind loading, 110 lbs sq ft roof loads, Kynar 5000 coated outside steel that meets THEIR color choice, Foam insulated, plumbing with bathroom and shower, minimum 400 amp electrical service and various other required and lavish upgrades a simple hangar does not need.

20 year MAXIMUM lease with NO extensions... All property reverts to the airport board after 20 years.. NO exceptions...

The numbers just don't pencil out at all as the existing hangars rent for 1/5 the cost.... And guess who owned the existing hangars:dunno::idea:......

The current board members...:mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2:..

So, to review....

They dictate the style and high end quality of MY new structure, they get 20 years of god only knows ground lease rates and in just 20 years they get the hangar back to lease it out for themselves...:rolleyes::rolleyes:..

Strangely enough a few idiots have actually built new stuff, altho I bet their contract didn't look like mine did..

Ps... I did NOT build there....:no::no::nono:
 
OkieFlyer said:
T

I'm not a fan of spending my money on something that becomes the property of the city.
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If you had a 20y groundlease with two guaranteed 10y renewals at predetermined escalations, you would have your money made by the time it reverts. No point doing this on a 10y or year to year.
 
Frogs97 said:
In contrast to all the stories about dying airports in some areas, hangar space around here seems really hard to come by. Does anyone know what the approx cost is to build a 6-8 plane T-hangar structure? With plenty of land and multi-year waiting lists, I'm wondering why many of these airports aren't interested in building more hangars.
Click to expand...

We put in 3 T buildings, 10 ea. Roughly 600,000 each including all permits, inspections, etc. About 10% was fees to the city and county. Land lease only. Reverts to airport no sooner than 25 years with two 10 yr extensions. variable costs are about 100/month for a small T. Corners cost more. Erect-A-Tube on concrete slabs. Condo ownership.
 
ejensen said:
We put in 3 T buildings, 10 ea. Roughly 600,000 each including all permits, inspections, etc. About 10% was fees to the city and county. Land lease only. Reverts to airport no sooner than 25 years with two 10 yr extensions. variable costs are about 100/month for a small T. Corners cost more. Erect-A-Tube on concrete slabs. Condo ownership.
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WOW! That's a whole lot more expensive than I would have expected.

So, does condo ownership mean that you pay $50k-ish for a small T-hangar, and $1200/year in fees?
 
weilke said:
If you had a 20y groundlease with two guaranteed 10y renewals at predetermined escalations, you would have your money made by the time it reverts. No point doing this on a 10y or year to year.
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Again I say, according to the current rules of our airport, we cannot lease ground and build a hangar for the purpose of renting it out. We can, however, lease ground and build a hangar for private use only.

Plus, I don't have any money.
 
Frogs97 said:
WOW! That's a whole lot more expensive than I would have expected.

So, does condo ownership mean that you pay $50k-ish for a small T-hangar, and $1200/year in fees?
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Yep, close to 60K and I own the air inside:) Fees are close to $1100 and includes electricity. But not taxes (commercial about $900/year). Gas if you want it is you own meter.

We did manage to get a longer lease from the airport. Started at 20 yrs and no extensions. Probably the best deal in the area (Colorado Front Range) we could get. We got a few breaks like not waiting for the next Master Plan because we were displaced pilots and not a commercial venture. Old airport closed.
 
OkieFlyer said:
Again I say, according to the current rules of our airport, we cannot lease ground and build a hangar for the purpose of renting it out. We can, however, lease ground and build a hangar for private use only.

Plus, I don't have any money.
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You dont need to use your money to build it. If there are in fact people interested in having a hangar on the field, it can be put together as a condo-association. You just put the deal together and charge a management fee.
 
ejensen said:
Yep, close to 60K and I own the air inside:) Fees are close to $1100 and includes electricity. But not taxes (commercial about $900/year). Gas if you want it is you own meter.

We did manage to get a longer lease from the airport. Started at 20 yrs and no extensions. Probably the best deal in the area (Colorado Front Range) we could get. We got a few breaks like not waiting for the next Master Plan because we were displaced pilots and not a commercial venture. Old airport closed.
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In a tight market, you could probably sell it for more than what you have into it right now.
 
ejensen said:
Yep, could now for sure. As the lease shortens less so.
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That's the rub with those land-lease deals. Unless the options on the lease extensions are written into the agreement, the hangar pretty much depreciates to 0 at the end of the term. Some places run on the 'well the county has always extended them' concept, that is until they dont.
 
weilke said:
That's the rub with those land-lease deals. Unless the options on the lease extensions are written into the agreement, the hangar pretty much depreciates to 0 at the end of the term. Some places run on the 'well the county has always extended them' concept, that is until they dont.
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Precisely.......
 
weilke said:
That's the rub with those land-lease deals. Unless the options on the lease extensions are written into the agreement, the hangar pretty much depreciates to 0 at the end of the term. Some places run on the 'well the county has always extended them' concept, that is until they dont.
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Big reason that we told them we couldn't build without a longer term.
 
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