Cost of ownership/operation Certified vs Homebuilt

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Jason Ellis
So this might be comparing Apples to Aardvarks but what are the differences in cost of ownership/operation between a certified aircraft and a home built?

So.. lets say we find a used Cirrus Sr22 for $150k with all the bells and whistles that we could want. (And I'm not sold on the Cirrus, just using it as an example.. Could be talking about a Diamond or Piper.. whatever..)

And, lets say we build an RV10 for $150k (used the vans cost estimator to get that number.. is that high? How much more plane is that compared to the Sr22?)

Now, I have to think that flying a plane that you personally built has a level of satisfaction several orders of magnitude above just buying a plane.. but I'm mainly wondering about dollar amounts.

What are the different costs, hidden fees, gotchas I probably wouldn't think about..etc.. ?

How much more plane do you typically get when doing a dollar for dollar comparison?

I bow to your expertise.. Love to hear your thoughts.
 
I never did an actual cost flow chart, but I can tell you from one that has owned both experimental and certified airplanes, I will never own another certified airplane again. If I had a choice between the 2 you have mentioned it would be the RV 10.
 
I never did an actual cost flow chart, but I can tell you from one that has owned both experimental and certified airplanes, I will never own another certified airplane again. If I had a choice between the 2 you have mentioned it would be the RV 10.

but.. why? If I had to make this argument to my wife for example (I don't), what are the talking points?
 
Good choice on comparable planes,


Difference in costs would likely depend on YOU.

Willing to run auto fuel? Score one for the RV
Want the absolute most speed? Score one for the Cirrus
Storage costs? Tie

I would likely pick the RV myself as a Cirrus isn't much of a "pilots plane" in my book, its a good A-B ship.

However both require passengers to climb on the wing so that rules them out for me personally.
 
Building an RV kit is not something you do if your concern is cost unless you absolutely have to own a brand new airplane. And, even then, the RV is not the low cost option.

One should build if and only if one wants to build one's own airplane for the sake of building one's own airplane.

Cost to build depends a lot on what you are willing to put into it. A fast build RV kit is going to cost the proverbial arm and leg for the convenience of having purd near everything pre-made for you (except for final assembly). Add a factory new engine and... shew doggie!!!!! On the other hand, building something like a T-18 where you start with a roll of drawings and a bunch of flat stock that you obtained locally (some from a salvage yard), and an engine that you salvaged and rebuilt yourself, and a used panel out of a Cessna 150 wreck that you parted out after taking what you need, and you have a whole 'nuther animal when it comes to cost (and time).

Or, you can often buy a used homebuilt already flying for about the price of a kit or a new engine. (The one I bought was a bit more than the kit price, but less than the engine.) That way you save money and time. Of course, a used RV cost more than other similar designs because they are so popular and people are willing to pay the premium - just like a Cub.
 
but.. why? If I had to make this argument to my wife for example (I don't), what are the talking points?

Operation cost for the most part. If something needs replaced I can buy the part and put it on myself and it is going to be a third the cost of certified part.
 
I am flying my second Experimental, 8a and currently have a 10.
I didn't build either one but do enjoy making changes and up grades myself and at much reduced cost of certified.
I can perform the work I'm comfortable with, and what I'm not I take to a shop.
Here is an example of the difference in standard maintenance;
Flying my 8 I had the flap motor intermittently stop working. Got it back to my airport took the access panel off, I removed the flap motor, and it didn't take long to figure out it was the brushes. I Called the manufacture, he send me new brushes for the price of shipping. I had them the next day, replace the brushes and replaced the motor. Back in the air one day later for $20.00. Try that in a certified, it would have taken a new flap motor and a couple of weeks at the shop.
Non TSO' d instruments are a lot less and with today's technology just as capable.
My 10 will carry 4 adults, fly 160 knots at 13.5 GPH its a no brainier for me.
 
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Honestly, I don't know that there is a ton of money to be 'saved' by going Experimental over Certified until you get into nav/radio equipment. The biggest bonus I have seen in the experimental world is the ease of getting some stuff done that is amazingly regulated in the certified world plus the knowledge gained from having built the plane yourself.

Prime example - flying to Texas over Thanksgiving, the digital tach started acting up in the RV-10. Engine was running fine by all other readings, just appeared that something was jacked up with the tach, so we continued on. After landing, we popped the cowl off, and already knew exactly where the wires were connected, how they were routed, and how they worked, so we were able to diagnose the problem on-the-spot. Turns out one of the blade wiring connections was a little loose. Went down to the local True Value and got some small zip ties, came back to the airport, popped off the old zip ties, adjusted all of the blade wiring connections, re-zip tied them together, and done.

If we had been in a certified plane, I probably wouldn't know enough about the workings of all the wiring routes well enough to be able to pop the cowl off and go right to the likely source of the problem, which means I would have ended up at an A&P and paying them to do the work for me.
 
The home built gives you more options on equipment that you can install. Also allows you to install new technology without a lot of hassles. Do you have the time to complete a project?
 
Honestly, I don't know that there is a ton of money to be 'saved' by going Experimental over Certified until you get into nav/radio equipment. The biggest bonus I have seen in the experimental world is the ease of getting some stuff done that is amazingly regulated in the certified world plus the knowledge gained from having built the plane yourself.

Prime example - flying to Texas over Thanksgiving, the digital tach started acting up in the RV-10. Engine was running fine by all other readings, just appeared that something was jacked up with the tach, so we continued on. After landing, we popped the cowl off, and already knew exactly where the wires were connected, how they were routed, and how they worked, so we were able to diagnose the problem on-the-spot. Turns out one of the blade wiring connections was a little loose. Went down to the local True Value and got some small zip ties, came back to the airport, popped off the old zip ties, adjusted all of the blade wiring connections, re-zip tied them together, and done.

If we had been in a certified plane, I probably wouldn't know enough about the workings of all the wiring routes well enough to be able to pop the cowl off and go right to the likely source of the problem, which means I would have ended up at an A&P and paying them to do the work for me.

The fallacy of your theory is, if you had a production built aircraft you would not have a cheap connector, and would not have had the problem
 
The fallacy of your theory is, if you had a production built aircraft you would not have a cheap connector, and would not have had the problem

Doubtful. I've personally had more intermittent electrical problems in certified planes than I ever have in experimental planes. That's not saying ALL certified planes are bad, but based on my personal experience, I have had more issues in certified than experimental. YMMV.
 
Doubtful. I've personally had more intermittent electrical problems in certified planes than I ever have in experimental planes. That's not saying ALL certified planes are bad, but based on my personal experience, I have had more issues in certified than experimental. YMMV.

maybe, but weren't those old aircraft? I've never seen a wire connector properly secured come loose. I've seen a lot of old copper wires work harden and break, I've seen corrosion break a connection, but to simply rattle loose no.
 
maybe, but weren't those old aircraft? I've never seen a wire connector properly secured come loose. I've seen a lot of old copper wires work harden and break, I've seen corrosion break a connection, but to simply rattle loose no.

Late 70's to early 80's models with fairly newly and/or repaired avionics or switches.

My point was less about WHAT broke - stuff is going to break, it just happens - it was the fact that we knew how to fix it and, after seeing what the problem was, being able to put a solution to it that prevents that problem from happening again in the future. Same thing that an A&P would do, but we were able to do it ourselves because we built the plane which meant we had acquired the knowledge to be able do so.

You can get to the same level of knowledge with a certified plane, but it will take longer to acquire that knowledge unless you are standing beside your A&P every time he turns a wrench on something and you know better than I do that is not a good idea. ;)
 
You can get to the same level of knowledge with a certified plane, but it will take longer to acquire that knowledge unless you are standing beside your A&P every time he turns a wrench on something and you know better than I do that is not a good idea. ;)

I would add the argument that in all likelihood you would be more careful on your personal plane, than some guy who just works a 9-5 job at a factory.

Not to besmirch the good people who work on aircraft for a living, but it just seems like you would take more care on your own personal machine.
 
I would add the argument that in all likelihood you would be more careful on your personal plane, than some guy who just works a 9-5 job at a factory.

Not to besmirch the good people who work on aircraft for a living, but it just seems like you would take more care on your own personal machine.

True, but the guy working 9-5 has tons more experience - and a supervisor to inspect the work.
 
I would add the argument that in all likelihood you would be more careful on your personal plane, than some guy who just works a 9-5 job at a factory.

Not to besmirch the good people who work on aircraft for a living, but it just seems like you would take more care on your own personal machine.

Wish I could say that was true. TCed planes come from the factory at a very consistent level of quality.

EABs run from "death trap" bad to "OH MY LORD!" good.
 
Factory has some level of QC. Guy in his garage may not. Can't beat the Ex/AB for avionics though.
 
Just an open question ,,,, How many people who would not build their aircraft, would actually do the maintenance them selves, after buying one already built?
 
The fallacy of your theory is, if you had a production built aircraft you would not have a cheap connector, and would not have had the problem

Same part , just didn't pay10 times the amount.
 
Just an open question ,,,, How many people who would not build their aircraft, would actually do the maintenance them selves, after buying one already built?

I have owned 2 experimental airplanes and bought them both flying. I did all my own work ln them.
 
If you choose to build an RV10 (or any other experimental) you are eligible to apply for a repairman's certificate which authorizes you to perform annual conditional inspections on the aircraft you built and sign them off in the aircraft's logs. I do all my inspections less the firewall forward, which I have checked by a professional. Just like the second set of eyes. Last year it cost me about $180.00, which in addition to an inspection included compression tests, plug cleaning/swapping and a mag timing check.

Jeff Orear
RV6A N782P
Peshtigo, WI
 
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Just an open question ,,,, How many people who would not build their aircraft, would actually do the maintenance them selves, after buying one already built?

I do.

Who wouldn't?

Makes owning an airplane more affordable.
 
For the "typical" GA aircraft (some are even older than me), a lot of water has gone under the bridge since it came out of the factory...

Thank you for some excellent common sense. I know at least three certified rebuilds going on and the things they found are downright scary....
 
Thank you for some excellent common sense. I know at least three certified rebuilds going on and the things they found are downright scary....

Gee, it's an airplane!

EAB vs TCed

Question one, want to make money with it?


And in the end that is the only one that will completely rule any type out.
 
maybe, but weren't those old aircraft? I've never seen a wire connector properly secured come loose. I've seen a lot of old copper wires work harden and break, I've seen corrosion break a connection, but to simply rattle loose no.

I've had both JPI and EI engine monitors and both have had issues with spade connectors coming loose, ever so slightly, and the bar graph jumping up and down because of it.
 
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Just an open question ,,,, How many people who would not build their aircraft, would actually do the maintenance them selves, after buying one already built?

I would. But I also do all the maintenance on my cars, so I just like to work on stuff. It's not for everybody, though.
 
There is a comparison to be had and it's no contest. I installed an IO320B1A lycoming in my glastar. It was a mid time engine and needed the fuel servo overhauled before I test flew the airplane. I sent it off to the certified shop. My bill was $800.00. It was the exact same overhaul as would have been done if it were on the twin Comanche it came off of but because I didn't need the yellow tag I didn't have to pay the normal $5500! That is the biggest example I can think of off the top of my head but the list is extensive. In addition to the cost savings, there are a multitude of other benefits beginning with the performance you can get in most experimentals.
 
Just an open question ,,,, How many people who would not build their aircraft, would actually do the maintenance them selves, after buying one already built?

I'm actually shopping for(and fattening up my discretionary cash fund for) an RV9. I'd be more than willing to learn to maintain it myself. I'm not exactly sold on bucking 100,000 rivets. I would take a work in progress, but it would have to be almost completely assembled.
 
Back to the OP's question.

Ultimately, the ongoing costs of the Cirrus will be slightly higher than the RV-10 due to the cost of certified airframe parts vs buying the parts from Van's. The operating expenses (fuel, oil, insurance, hangar, and reserves) will be similar, as will Annual (Condition) Inspection costs. The cost of equivalent interior or panel upgrades will probably be less with the RV, and you'll have more options.
 
The RV10 will be cheaper to own, primarily because on the whole parts will be cheaper, and upgrades will be cheaper. RV10 has the option for auto fuel which the Cirrus does not. The RV10 is slower.

Now that said, you can be very involved in the maintenance of your own aircraft, regardless of experimental or certified. I am very involved in the maintenance of the 310. Some things I choose to let the A&Ps do (mostly due to lack of time) the rest I do myself under supervision. I do most of the research on parts and order most of them myself. Saves a ton of money.

Here is an example of the difference in standard maintenance;
Flying my 8 I had the flap motor intermittently stop working. Got it back to my airport took the access panel off, I removed the flap motor, and it didn't take long to figure out it was the brushes. I Called the manufacture, he send me new brushes for the price of shipping. I had them the next day, replace the brushes and replaced the motor. Back in the air one day later for $20.00. Try that in a certified, it would have taken a new flap motor and a couple of weeks at the shop.

On that note, I had a flap switch that went out. Flaps wouldn't come back up. Isolated the problem to the switch, did the research for a replacement that met form/fit/function (thank you, DigiKey) and $20 later, new switch. Legal as an owner-supplied part. I've got other similar examples.

Parts availability for certified aircraft isn't necessarily bad for the factory parts, too. Some things there are huge lead times for and problems with sourcing. But most of the common parts are pretty easy to come by.

Prime example - flying to Texas over Thanksgiving, the digital tach started acting up in the RV-10. Engine was running fine by all other readings, just appeared that something was jacked up with the tach, so we continued on. After landing, we popped the cowl off, and already knew exactly where the wires were connected, how they were routed, and how they worked, so we were able to diagnose the problem on-the-spot. Turns out one of the blade wiring connections was a little loose. Went down to the local True Value and got some small zip ties, came back to the airport, popped off the old zip ties, adjusted all of the blade wiring connections, re-zip tied them together, and done.

If we had been in a certified plane, I probably wouldn't know enough about the workings of all the wiring routes well enough to be able to pop the cowl off and go right to the likely source of the problem, which means I would have ended up at an A&P and paying them to do the work for me.

As you later pointed out, this level of familiarity can be had on certified, but will typically take more time since you didn't build it from the ground up. I wouldn't lie and say I know the 310 inside and out, but I know enough to know where the tach generator is on each engine and where the wiring runs to see if there's a problem there. But most likely I'd have to buy a rebuilt tach generator. In that case, it would be more - a few hundred bucks for an overhauled exchange unit.

Certified aircraft, when given the same level of personal involvement as most experimental owners have in their planes, don't have to be terribly expensive to own. I've managed to keep costs much lower than most other people through detailed personal involvement. And the plane's pretty reliable, too.
 
I would add the argument that in all likelihood you would be more careful on your personal plane, than some guy who just works a 9-5 job at a factory.

Not to besmirch the good people who work on aircraft for a living, but it just seems like you would take more care on your own personal machine.

I don't see that as particularly true. I know people who build aircraft on the factory floor, they take great pride in the job they do, and they have someone inspecting behind them. There is also a lot to be said for learning all the little tricks to getting the detail spots just right after you've done a couple dozen.;)

As for Experimentals, there are a couple of guys who I would buy anything they build sight unseen, but for the most part, every time I look over a home built I find small, but critical, oversights in detail because the builder doesn't understand how critical it is, and this is typically with fuel system plumbing and or wiring. I also often find kinda sloppy details, just a lack of refinement in fit and finish because they just didn't know how to do it "like a pro". Then I see some that it's like "holy ****, what are you thinking here?"
 
The OP's original question is good. However, the answer depends on the individual, in my opinion. I owned a Cirrus SR 20 and my flying buddy owned a RV-10. My plane cost $160K and his build was around $145K, this was in 2009. He liked his RV-10 better and I liked my cirrus better. His 10 was faster than my 20, but not blazingly faster. With that he burnt more fuel. I was 150kts true at 9.8 gph and he was 170 true at 14 gph. He had the repairman certificate so his annuals were less. My flat rate annual was $1K, he did his for like $400. But, I never left the shop for under $2K total bill. I would do software updates, landing gear puck replacements, fix interior leather, etc. I also did only owner assisted maintenance.

I will say, he always had to tinker on his plane, I just flew mine. I liked getting my elbows dirty, but would not love to build my plane. I'm a pilot first, mechanic second while he loved tinkering on his plane.

If your plane never breaks down, then experimental is cheaper, but AOG over night somewhere and the experimental cost benefits disappear. This is something most people don't talk about. This goes more into your flying mission statement. I flew all over the place in my 20 and I had 4 mechanics. All of them were cheaper than my car mechanic.

So OP, what type of pilot are you. Do you like to fly, tinker and fly or just tinker?
 
Now that said, you can be very involved in the maintenance of your own aircraft, regardless of experimental or certified.

You can do an amazing amount of work on a type certified aircraft if it doesn't get logged. Just something to think about...

As for Experimentals, there are a couple of guys who I would buy anything they build sight unseen, but for the most part, every time I look over a home built I find small, but critical, oversights in detail because the builder doesn't understand how critical it is, and this is typically with fuel system plumbing and or wiring.

That does seem to be common. Shows up in the accident statistics as well.

Still chipping away at some of those things on my ride.
 
So this might be comparing Apples to Aardvarks but what are the differences in cost of ownership/operation between a certified aircraft and a home built?

So.. lets say we find a used Cirrus Sr22 for $150k with all the bells and whistles that we could want. (And I'm not sold on the Cirrus, just using it as an example.. Could be talking about a Diamond or Piper.. whatever..)

And, lets say we build an RV10 for $150k (used the vans cost estimator to get that number.. is that high? How much more plane is that compared to the Sr22?)

Now, I have to think that flying a plane that you personally built has a level of satisfaction several orders of magnitude above just buying a plane.. but I'm mainly wondering about dollar amounts.

What are the different costs, hidden fees, gotchas I probably wouldn't think about..etc.. ?

How much more plane do you typically get when doing a dollar for dollar comparison?

I bow to your expertise.. Love to hear your thoughts.

It boils down to this, "How good of a mechanic/diagnostician are you?" If you are a gearhead, you'll probably save yourself 25-40% of your maintenance costs on the RV-10 IF you find an extremely well built one, if you get a bad one, you may be considerably behind and have a lot of down time getting it squared away. If you don't do your own work, you won't save much.
 
2 additional points:

1) many experimental use certified engines, which can play a large % of repair costs. Many have certified props too.

Issue #1

I had a oil leak. It cost me 1 bottle of crown (A&P), $5 (gasket) and a lot of my own time taking my plane apart and putting it back together.

2) the cost of an experimental vs certified to break down away from your home town when you cannot stay and repair it.

Issue #2, busted exhaust valve on #5.
Hotel= same
Over night exhaust to and from Dawley aviation = $190
Exp could save money if you had a welder, but not at an away station
Exhaust work from Dawley = $150 ( yes I paid more to shop and insure the part than for the work)
Rental car to get family home = same
$ to friend to fly you in his RV-10 to get your cirrus= gas $$$ and ego :)
 
I never hear about the costs of an experimental breaking down away from station. And if you use your plane to travel a lot, this could be a factor.

What have others found with this?
 
I can only speak for RVs, and from second hand experiences. There being a large, dispersed "community" of RV builders/pilots, it is not uncommon to hear of RV pilots who need mechanical assistance while traveling putting out a call for help via the Vansairforce website or by directly calling local members of that forum and receiving the help they need to get back in the air. Everything from providing necessary tools to "loaning" parts to providing a place to stay have been known to occur. A brother/sisterhood so to speak.


Jeff Orear
RV6A N782P
Peshtigo, WI
 
So this might be comparing Apples to Aardvarks but what are the differences in cost of ownership/operation between a certified aircraft and a home built?

So.. lets say we find a used Cirrus Sr22 for $150k with all the bells and whistles that we could want. (And I'm not sold on the Cirrus, just using it as an example.. Could be talking about a Diamond or Piper.. whatever..)

And, lets say we build an RV10 for $150k (used the vans cost estimator to get that number.. is that high? How much more plane is that compared to the Sr22?)

Now, I have to think that flying a plane that you personally built has a level of satisfaction several orders of magnitude above just buying a plane.. but I'm mainly wondering about dollar amounts.

What are the different costs, hidden fees, gotchas I probably wouldn't think about..etc.. ?

How much more plane do you typically get when doing a dollar for dollar comparison?

I bow to your expertise.. Love to hear your thoughts.

The Cirri have nice curves and maybe a little less flat plate area.

We might have went certified but did not want to borrow money and building was a dream of this ex A&P since I was 10 yrs old. My family built our slow build -10 in 2 yrs from first rivet to test flight. It is no show plane, has painted interior and cloth seats. It was like when we built our house...same planning, hours to build, money for tools/materials, dedication and sacrificing. We are very happy with it, had it up to 16,500', Oshkosh-Florida and all in between in 125 hrs since Dec 2011. There are many places and people we want to see. Unfortunately it takes a lot of money for trips, not just the $70/hr in fuel, which is harder to come by since 2009. Still decreasing annually, but that is for another thread.

If you want an all new with a basic IFR panel, you better plan on $180K minimum. I will probably never get my IFR rating, but the only extra items for mine vs VFR was the $7500 G430W/VOR antenna, so I decided to put it in for resale value. Insurance $2000-$2400. 10.3 gph @ 160 kts @ 12,500', avg 12 gph on long xc trips, 4.5 hrs max safe range. All numbers at full gross 2700 lbs. Climb out at hot/humid Osh in 2012 in our RV-10"Heavy" was a sluggish 1000-1100 fpm. No zoom climbs for us.:D Normally about 1500 fpm in summer, 2000 fpm in winter. Takeoff 1000-1500', landing distance= 1500-2500' with light braking(varies greatly with final appr speed). My normal short final speed in calm winds= 70 kias, 30 deg flaps, steep appr angle, idle, fine pitch with descent rate around 1000 fpm. Simulates engine out landings, things happen quicker, timing is more important and more difficult to make an easy touchdown. I occasionally keep some power in and shallow the appr angle for easier greasers. You will want ANR's. I upgraded fuel lines to 5052(like certified)instead of supplied 3003 and added spare panel powering/starting battery. Other than some minor upgrades, pretty much stock. There are a bunch flying, so a good support network. We don't worry about breakdowns as it is all new, I maintain/inspect it often and thoroughly(always precious cargo), carry tools, have redundant avionics and know it inside and out. We carry main/nose inner tubes, start contactor, 60A fusible link and some other misc parts. The common AOG items are easily acquired with Fed Ex next day...Skytec NL starter, Plane Power 60A alternator, Odyssey batteries, Slick magnetos, Van's fuel pump. Any engine/prop problems are no different from certified other than some A&P's won't touch EAB. Any airframe problems that would ground you for more than a day should have been caught at annual or preflight.

Have fun in your search. There are many wonderful cert and exp flying machines out there. Go get a ride in one near you.
 
The long and short of it is cost is not a valid reason to go ExAB; having a plane that has the mission capability you want, you enjoy tinkering with and modifying machines studying and learning them, those are are valid reasons for going ExAB.
 
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