correspondence from a future airman

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lbfjrmd

lbfjrmd

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Senior AME/ATC AME
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Good Afternoon Dr. Fowler,

I have been offered a conditional acceptance to the XXX.

I have a couple of issues that I was hoping to address with you about form 8500.

Until May 1st of 2021, I was an occasional user of Marijuana. In addition to that, I was arrested on April 28th of 2021, in X, with Marijuana and Psilocybin Mushrooms.

With both of those statements being true, I believe I would have to disclose illicit drug use in the last two years on 18n, as well as check yes on box 18V.

I was not convicted, and did not receive any administrative action involving my driving privileges.

However, I entered in to a pre-trial intervention program. Beginning in May of xxxx, I have submitted to random drug and alcohol testing, paid fines and fees, and had to attend a 24 hour long drug and alcohol education course. Upon successful completion of the program, the case will be dismissed, and the arrest will be expunged.

From my independent research, it seems that per the 2014 AME Guide in order to issue a certificate on a first time report, I would have to:

1) Furnish a detailed history of my alcohol and drug consumption history, as well as the circumstances surrounding the related incident

2) Provide copies of all court records and arrest report for the incident since it occurred within the past 5 years.

3)Have these findings documented by you in Item 60 comments.

4)Have you forward the court records and arrest reports to the AMCD

5)Understand that reporting this, does not alleviate my obligation to report any motor vehicle action within 60 days of the occurrence to the FAA.


It goes on to say that the AME may issue if NONE of the deferral criteria are met, being:

1) Inability to obtain and review the court and arrest records within 14 days of the date of the exam

2) For the alcohol- or drug-related driving incidents:

Any arrest, conviction, and/or administrative action...

Since my incident was not driving relates, I do not believe Item 2 applies to me. So assuming I Furnish the records, I believe I do not meet any of the deferral requirements.

It also states that to issue: For reported incident(s) when the most recent incident occurred within the preceding 5 years of the exam, based on the exam, detailed interview AND review of the court record(s) and arrest report(s), the AME determines the applicant's history does not indicate a possible substance abuse or dependence problem.



I know it is unlikely that you can answer the latter without reviewing the court records and arrest reports.

My question is, am I wasting my time, or do you think I have at least a shot of having a 1st class medical issued?

In the 16 months since my arrest, I have not consumed any illicit drugs, or alcohol, and have no desire to. I made a mistake, and it inspired a great change in my life.

I am hoping to move beyond that, and start an exciting career in the world of Aviation.

If you think we can work around these issues, to get a certificate issued, please let me know and let's schedule an appointment.

If not, thank you for your time and consideration of this email.

***************************************

If you were an AME how would you respond to this airman. Best answer gets a like from me!
 
"It's a long shot, but I believe everyone deserves a second chance and I'm willing to try if you are. My fee is $25,000,* in advance. I do not guarantee any specific outcome."

* Or whatever outrageous number you want to throw out.
 
Bill said:
That's rather mean, Dr Lou does good work.
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Of course Lou does!!

The question was what would I do if I were an AME. I’d send the guy somewhere other than Florida. We already have enough “Florida Man” stories here as it is.
 
He admits continued use after his arrest. Is that evidence of dependence in the FAA's eyes? I'd say he definitely has a chance, but it's probably going to be harder and take longer than he seems to be anticipating.
 
Lindberg said:
He admits continued use after his arrest. Is that evidence of dependence in the FAA's eyes? I'd say he definitely has a chance, but it's probably going to be harder and take longer than he seems to be anticipating.
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Well, in fairness, he was just using up the evidence the police didn't find a few days earlier.
 
@lbfjrmd , please forgive a bit of thread drift, but I’m curious.

You do a lot of difficult cases and help many airmen be successful with difficult medicals. I, for one, am very appreciative of AMEs like you and Bruce who work so hard to keep us flying. But,.... Have you had any you wished you hadn’t helped? People like this applicant who get cleared, then go back to the drugs or booze or stop taking a required med, maybe have an accident?
 
I mean, it reads a lot more pre-researched and literate than most of the guest posts on the medical forum here. I'd want to give em a shot -- there's even a sprinkle of contrition in there.
 
Half Fast said:
@lbfjrmd , please forgive a bit of thread drift, but I’m curious.

You do a lot of difficult cases and help many airmen be successful with difficult medicals. I, for one, am very appreciative of AMEs like you and Bruce who work so hard to keep us flying. But,.... Have you had any you wished you hadn’t helped? People like this applicant who get cleared, then go back to the drugs or booze or stop taking a required med, maybe have an accident?
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between and AME and the FAA, the system works. Recidivism does occur but it is usually caught quickly. I have no regrets and it is a priv. to help.
 
Lindberg said:
He admits continued use after his arrest. Is that evidence of dependence in the FAA's eyes? I'd say he definitely has a chance, but it's probably going to be harder and take longer than he seems to be anticipating.
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yes Dr. Lindberg ... an astute observation!
 
schmookeeg said:
I mean, it reads a lot more pre-researched and literate than most of the guest posts on the medical forum here. I'd want to give em a shot -- there's even a sprinkle of contrition in there.
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;)
 
AoACowboy said:
I got a speeding ticket once, I continued to speed, is this a reportable mental disorder?

Speeding kills far more than the magic mushrooms or pot
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What does speeding have to do with an FAA medical certificate?
 
The reporting question really boils down to whether in X, the pretrial diversion program requires an admission of guilt. It varies COUNTY BY COUNTY. 18n, yes…but I just terminated a conversation with a guy tonight who is an unrepentant liar…..having just lied to another AME. and I wonder what are the chances that this poster will actually report 18n.

…..and yes to Lindbergh’s observation.
 
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AoACowboy said:
Less, speeding factually kills more by every metric

If you have worked in this world much you have to know how much of a joke aeromedical is
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I shouldn't poke the bear, but what percentage of drivers speed? What percentage of drivers operate their vehicle under the influence?

I am willing to bet that at some point in almost every driver's life, they have done some speeding. And the rate for driving under influence of drugs or alcohol? I know I am not the only driver who would never, ever operate a vehicle under the influence of either alcohol or drugs stronger than Ibuprofen.

Just because one cause has more deaths tacked to it does not make it more dangerous. There is a lot more to consider when making conclusions.
 
AoACowboy said:
Have you ever taken a polygraph?

The theory is they ask you a question they know you will lie on, and one that you won’t lie on, “are the lights are on in the room”, the lie isn’t one they care about, in theory, it is to make a baseline between lie and truth, so they can theoretically detect the lie on the relevant question

One of the questions some agencies asked

“do you drink alcohol?”

“have you ever driven under the influence even if you were never caught?”

They known that anyone who drinks and has a drivers license has probably driven over the legal limit at some point
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Are you trying to make the point that I'm lying about never having driven under the influence? I'm really struggling to see the relevance of this post to the discussion.
 
Lindberg said:
He admits continued use after his arrest. Is that evidence of dependence in the FAA's eyes? I'd say he definitely has a chance, but it's probably going to be harder and take longer than he seems to be anticipating.
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the winner. airman deferred to the faa for further evaluation. his scholarship starts in dec, but I do not think this case will be resolved by that time. I do think he will eventually prevail.
 
AoACowboy said:
In response to your comment, if you drink and have ever driven, you probably have driven above .08 at some point
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Well, joke's on you then, because I haven't. Granted, I drink very sparingly. And it is always in the evening, in the comfort of my own home. And that's intentional. I'd never drink and drive. Ever. I know the consequences. I want to have my reflexes and my brain working properly when I drive.
 
AoACowboy said:
Traveling all over the US with work and many other nations, eating out, friends and co workers and that it has been a control question for polygraphs
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So, maybe you can conclude that the crowd you hang with occasionally drives under the influence. Thinking that applies to the whole population is merely projection of your own personal experience.
 
AoACowboy said:
Have you ever taken a polygraph?

The theory is they ask you a question they know you will lie on, and one that you won’t lie on, “are the lights are on in the room”, the lie isn’t one they care about, in theory, it is to make a baseline between lie and truth, so they can theoretically detect the lie on the relevant question

One of the questions some agencies asked

“do you drink alcohol?”

“have you ever driven under the influence even if you were never caught?”

They known that anyone who drinks and has a drivers license has probably driven over the legal limit at some point
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I have been polygraphed.

They did not ask me if I had driven under the influence.

They did ask if I had ever used weed. I think for the reason you proposed. I haven’t smoked weed either. Just like I’ve never driven impaired.

I loved hunting drunks when I was on patrol. I never cited anyone for speeding. I was looking to make a difference… not generate revenue.
 
AoACowboy said:
In response to your comment, if you drink and have ever driven, you probably have driven above .08 at some point
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Nope, never. Not everyone is evil and not everyone is Mr. Magoo. The last thing we need is some stoner of the TikTok generation sharing the friendly skies. And don’t get into a battle of wits with skychaser, unless losing in ego crushing humiliation is your thing.
 
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AoACowboy said:
Traveling all over the US with work and many other nations, eating out, friends and co workers and that it has been a control question for polygraphs
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Got it. So just projection. And you don't know how polygraphs work. Carry on.
 
AoACowboy said:
Less, speeding factually kills more by every metric
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I guess you realize that no credible study has linked speed to accident rate? Speeding does not cause accidents.

Difference in speed does. So those going significantly faster than the prevailing traffic does. But also, those going a similar difference SLOWER than the prevailing traffic causes just as many accidents./
 
Its amazing how willing AMEs are willing to help these cases on top of just regular folk with health issues that aren't law & dependency issues.
 
Pinecone said:
I guess you realize that no credible study has linked speed to accident rate? Speeding does not cause accidents.

Difference in speed does. So those going significantly faster than the prevailing traffic does. But also, those going a similar difference SLOWER than the prevailing traffic causes just as many accidents./
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Yeah, all those cars that like to speed through my residential neighborhood - we pedestrians really should be more considerate to them and walk faster in order to reduce the relative speed of impact in the event of a collision.
 
AoACowboy said:
It’s pretty simple, I go out to a dinner with friends or work, I see a glass or wine or beer for every seat for the most part, no Ubers in that town, don’t see a single cab, repeat this over many occasions over the years in many cities.
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Not a way to draw meaningful conclusions.

First of all, you don't know who at each table may be driving (and I'd bet there's a person or two at each table not drinking), and you don't really know what might be in their glasses. (Many times I've ordered a non-alcoholic beer in a restaurant.) Second, your sample set is filtered to your own cohort group, not representative of the whole population, and to that subset of restaurants that serve alcohol. Third, because you and your friends will drink and drive, you project that to others around you and to the human population at large and conclude everyone behaves the same way.

That's very shaky reasoning.
 
Baked Potato said:
Yeah, all those cars that like to speed through my residential neighborhood - we pedestrians really should be more considerate to them and walk faster in order to reduce the relative speed of impact in the event of a collision.
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Yes, that would be much appreciated. But it's really the @%$#! bicyclists that tick me off, so please pedal faster or get off the road.
 
Half Fast said:
Yes, that would be much appreciated. But it's really the @%$#! bicyclists that tick me off, so please pedal faster or get off the road.
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Build us bike paths everywhere I need to go and we have a deal
 
Half Fast said:
I'm sure the registration and license plate fees for your bike will cover the expense (or can be made to).
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If you want to go down the road (pun) of discussing how much drivers are subsidized in the US, we can open that can of worms, but I feel that's diverging a bit much from the thread.
 
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