Contract Pilot Compensation

jordane93 said:
How does insurance work in this kind of situation?
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Depends entirely on the aircraft owner's policy. Like I posted earlier, the OP may find that many operators won't be able to use him (even as SIC) due to his total time. I've missed out on a few SIC contract jobs because I didn't meet the insurance requirements.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Depends entirely on the aircraft owner's policy. Like I posted earlier, the OP may find that many operators won't be able to use him (even as SIC) due to his total time. I've missed out on a few SIC contract jobs because I didn't meet the insurance requirements.
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Are there even policies that cover a 350TT PIC?
 
Anthony8822 said:
That's pretty cynical, don't you think? We all pass the same test. We all go through the same training. What's the difference between me and a 1500 hour Skyhawk CFI going into the same position?
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No, I don't think it's cynical. Fact is at 350 hours you don't know what you don't know. It's a cliche, but it fits.
It's certainly nothing personal, and it's not rocket science. I just don't believe a 350 hour pilot is ready for jet PIC. Just doing a profile decent into a busy airport, then an arrival change, then a runway change, numerous speed changes, can really catch a new pilot off guard. Things can really get ugly fast.

And no, I'm not sure it's the "same test". Perhaps someone can comment on that, but most folks getting type ratings perform the checkride to ATP standards. I don't know if that holds true for types for CP holders.
 
Anthony8822 said:
That's pretty cynical, don't you think? We all pass the same test. We all go through the same training. What's the difference between me and a 1500 hour Skyhawk CFI going into the same position?
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I was never a CFI, Skyhawk or otherwise. However, by the time I got to 1500 hours I had handled several emergencies, lot's of unexpected weather and been in and out of about a hundred different airports.

It's not necessarily the number of hours, but the experience you get with those hours. You're right that the 1500 hour Skyhawk CFI probably doesn't have much more experience than you, but either way that experience is low since it's the same hour over and over.

That fact that you tripped into the job you currently have is great. Wish I had the same opportunity, but the early opportunities I did have weren't so bad.

Good luck and don't get cocky!!

I'll be pushing up against 14,000 hours this year and I still don't know 5h1t!!
 
Anymouse said:
I was never a CFI, Skyhawk or otherwise. However, by the time I got to 1500 hours I had handled several emergencies, lot's of unexpected weather and been in and out of about a hundred different airports.

It's not necessarily the number of hours, but the experience you get with those hours. You're right that the 1500 hour Skyhawk CFI probably doesn't have much more experience than you, but either way that experience is low since it's the same hour over and over.

That fact that you tripped into the job you currently have is great. Wish I had the same opportunity, but the early opportunities I did have weren't so bad.

Good luck and don't get cocky!!

I'll be pushing up against 14,000 hours this year and I still don't know 5h1t!!
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I agree with this perspective. Building hours flying cross countries is very different than building hours as a CFI. Similarly building time out west is different from building time back east. The weather patterns are different so the evaluation and risks are different.

I don't have a tenth of 14,000 hours. I can teach a few things about single engine in the mountains. ;)
 
James331 said:
Sounds to be like the owner, and high time pilot w/o a medical, didn't so much hire a PIC for his plane as hired a "medical" for himself.
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Wouldn't both pilots need a medical? Of course that assumes they're not flying it under single pilot waiver.
 
Kritchlow said:
Wouldn't both pilots need a medical? Of course that assumes they're not flying it under single pilot waiver.
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That's what I was thinking, single pilot, 350hr wonder just there to keep it legal.
 
James331 said:
That's what I was thinking, single pilot, 350hr wonder just there to keep it legal.
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I'm not sure how easy it is to get a waiver for the CE500. The CE525 comes single pilot approved out of the box, but a waiver is needed for the CE500.
Both need an "S" suffix in their pilot certificate type as well...
 
Kritchlow said:
I'm not sure how easy it is to get a waiver for the CE500. The CE525 comes single pilot approved out of the box, but a waiver is needed for the CE500.
Both need an "S" suffix in their pilot certificate type as well...
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Not exactly.

For the 525s, if you are fully typed with no 'SIC required' limitation, then your certificate says CE-525S.

For the CE-500s certified under Part 25, if you complete the additional training for single pilot operations, you get an exemption letter that allows you to fly the aircraft single pilot (the letter must be carried onboard the aircraft with you), but you will not have anything like an 'S' on your pilot certificate indicating such.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Not exactly.

For the 525s, if you are fully typed with no 'SIC required' limitation, then your certificate says CE-525S.

For the CE-500s certified under Part 25, if you complete the additional training for single pilot operations, you get an exemption letter that allows you to fly the aircraft single pilot (the letter must be carried onboard the aircraft with you), but you will not have anything like an 'S' on your pilot certificate indicating such.
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Okay. I'll go with that.
I was under the impression the actual 500 aircraft also needed a waiver seeing as though it's certified for two pilots. I've never seen in any literature where it says one pilot like I've seen in the 525.
 
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Kritchlow said:
Okay. I'll go with that.
I was under the impression the actual 500 aircraft also needed a waiver seeing as though it's certified for two pilots. I've never seen in any literature where it says one pilot like I've seen in the 525.
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You are correct...the airplane has to be specifically equipped, and there's paperwork in the AFM.

The single pilot paperwork in the AFM for the airplane I flew (a Sierra modded 500) was also specific to the owner...when the airplane sold, the single pilot exemption for the airplane became invalid.
 
Kritchlow said:
Okay. I'll go with that.
I was under the impression the actual 500 aircraft also needed a waiver seeing as though it's certified for two pilots. I've never seen in any literature where it says one pilot like I've seen in the 525.
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The big difference (as I understand it) is that the 525s were certified under Part 23 as single pilot jets. The majority of the CE-500/550s were certified under Part 25 as two pilot airplanes.

So, if you complete the full training and take a single pilot check ride for the 525, you get a type rating that allows you to fly the jet single pilot.

But to fly a CE-500/550 single pilot, you do additional training and take a single pilot check ride, but unlike the 525, instead of getting an 'S' added to your type rating, you get a waiver/exemption letter that allows you to fly the aircraft single pilot.
 
I think most of the SP exemptions require the following experience to begin training for an SP exemption in the 500 series.

  1. Hold a current Class I or Class II Airman Medical Certificate

  2. Hold a Commercial Pilot Certificate with an Airplane, Multi‑Engine Land, without Centerline Thrust Limitation, and Instrument Rating or Airline Transport Pilot Certificate

  3. Hold a Cessna CE‑500 Type‑rating

  4. Have logged at least 1,000 hours total pilot flight time, including at least 50 hours flight time at night, 75 hours instrument flight time, 40 hours of instrument flight time in actual instrument meteorological conditions and 500 hours as pilot‑in‑command or co‑pilot time, or a combination of both, in turbojet or turbine powered airplanes
By the way the 500 series include 500, 501, 550, 551, S550, Bravo, Ultra, Encore, and Encore+, 501 and 551 are SP airplanes and do not require the exemption. I know of one exemption that covers all of the above. Most require differences training in each model.
 
Plano Pilot said:
I think most of the SP exemptions require the following experience to begin training for an SP exemption in the 500 series.

  1. Hold a current Class I or Class II Airman Medical Certificate

  2. Hold a Commercial Pilot Certificate with an Airplane, Multi‑Engine Land, without Centerline Thrust Limitation, and Instrument Rating or Airline Transport Pilot Certificate

  3. Hold a Cessna CE‑500 Type‑rating

  4. Have logged at least 1,000 hours total pilot flight time, including at least 50 hours flight time at night, 75 hours instrument flight time, 40 hours of instrument flight time in actual instrument meteorological conditions and 500 hours as pilot‑in‑command or co‑pilot time, or a combination of both, in turbojet or turbine powered airplanes
By the way the 500 series include 500, 501, 550, 551, S550, Bravo, Ultra, Encore, and Encore+, 501 and 551 are SP airplanes and do not require the exemption. I know of one exemption that covers all of the above. Most require differences training in each model.
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So I believe you're saying the OP has no shot at getting a SP waiver...??
 
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Anthony8822 said:
I don't want to sell myself short, and I know that my rate needs to be on the lower end (with only 350TT), but I don't want to undercut and negatively affect all the other contract pilots out there.
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Well, this shows you have more common sense than a lot of others out there. I've heard too many times of contract pilots/hobby CFIs who don't need the money say, "shoot, I'll just go fly/instruct for fun. They don't need to pay me."
 
Sluggo63 said:
Well, this shows you have more common sense than a lot of others out there. I've heard too many times of contract pilots/hobby CFIs who don't need the money say, "shoot, I'll just go fly/instruct for fun. They don't need to pay me."
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Oh hell no.

I don't technically need the money but I'd never do that to the local market or the kids trying to put food on their table.

Plus it cheapens the whole thing mentally for the student too. There's a certain seriousness about things that gets lost if the instructor is giving it away for free.

I can see where barter could come into play, but free? No way.

I know what getting the ratings did to my savings account. Thinking about a young guy or gal trying to build time paying that much without any other income, just gives me the willies for them.

Now that said, I've run into instructors who've given a discount when the flying mission or aircraft was a ton of fun... some of the older aerobatics and glider instructors around here do that, or shall we say they, "forget" to bill a few hours of flight time but the expectation is still there of paying their full rate, and then the "accounting mistakes" are made if the flying was an absolute blast. Ha.

I also think my initial CFI "forgot" an awful lot of ground school time, but in the middle of my initial Private he was diagnosed with (thankfully an easily curable form of) cancer, and being a student back then with a bejillion part time jobs, I'd show up at his HOUSE (he offered...) to sit and talk airplanes and frankly, I think it helped him keep his mind off of the damn cancer and chemo treatments when he felt like utter crap.

So besides formal ground school classes at the college back then, I was also sitting around drinking a soda or coffee at his place, digging through a bookshelf full of aviation materials, and asking "dumb questions" the whole time.

He got the benefit of being distracted from the treatment and illness, and I got the benefit of just being totally immersed in aviation stuff for hours on end.

But no. Commercial work or instruction is a job, no matter how fun it is, and saying one will do it for free, messes with a whole bunch of things mentally and emotionally that shouldn't be messed with, and hurts other pilots trying to make a living. Won't do it.
 
denverpilot said:
Oh hell no.

I don't technically need the money but I'd never do that to the local market or the kids trying to put food on their table.

Plus it cheapens the whole thing mentally for the student too. There's a certain seriousness about things that gets lost if the instructor is giving it away for free.

I can see where barter could come into play, but free? No way.

I know what getting the ratings did to my savings account. Thinking about a young guy or gal trying to build time paying that much without any other income, just gives me the willies for them.

Now that said, I've run into instructors who've given a discount when the flying mission or aircraft was a ton of fun... some of the older aerobatics and glider instructors around here do that, or shall we say they, "forget" to bill a few hours of flight time but the expectation is still there of paying their full rate, and then the "accounting mistakes" are made if the flying was an absolute blast. Ha.

I also think my initial CFI "forgot" an awful lot of ground school time, but in the middle of my initial Private he was diagnosed with (thankfully an easily curable form of) cancer, and being a student back then with a bejillion part time jobs, I'd show up at his HOUSE (he offered...) to sit and talk airplanes and frankly, I think it helped him keep his mind off of the damn cancer and chemo treatments when he felt like utter crap.

So besides formal ground school classes at the college back then, I was also sitting around drinking a soda or coffee at his place, digging through a bookshelf full of aviation materials, and asking "dumb questions" the whole time.

He got the benefit of being distracted from the treatment and illness, and I got the benefit of just being totally immersed in aviation stuff for hours on end.

But no. Commercial work or instruction is a job, no matter how fun it is, and saying one will do it for free, messes with a whole bunch of things mentally and emotionally that shouldn't be messed with, and hurts other pilots trying to make a living. Won't do it.
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I could not agree more. I have never "needed" to be paid as a CFI, but have even changed good friends for instruction and flight reviews. Although I have to amend to one complaint I want charging enough.
 
denverpilot said:
I also think my initial CFI "forgot" an awful lot of ground school time...
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Back in the day it seemed no instructors ever charged for ground school time. I don't ever remember being charged. Just hobbs time.
 
BrianNC said:
Back in the day it seemed no instructors ever charged for ground school time. I don't ever remember being charged. Just hobbs time.
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Even today it varies greatly. It seems they just about every flight school charges for ground. With individual CFIs it just it just depends on the person. Most independent CFIs Ive worked with don't charge for ground.
 
BrianNC said:
Back in the day it seemed no instructors ever charged for ground school time. I don't ever remember being charged. Just hobbs time.
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Pretty much every school at my airport charges for ground. There are independent CFIs that don't charge for ground but I've always paid them for it anyway. Their time and knowledge is valuable and I want to pay them for it.
 
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