Contract Pilot Compensation

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Anthony8822

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Anthony
I wasn't quite sure where to post this, so if there is a better subforum please let me know.

I think there should be a subforum for professional aviation. Not people working on their commercial or thinking about getting into it - but for people actively flying professionally, or qualified people actively looking for jobs/job-related information.

For example, I'm taking my Citation II PIC checkride next week. My contract with my boss is non-exclusive, so I can operate as a contract pilot for trips if I make sure I don't have any trips with him during that time period. I've been having little luck figuring out what to set my day rate at. I've had people giving me numbers from $400-$700 per day plus expenses, and that's a pretty wide range. My current pays me $500/day (plus expenses on the road), with a minimum monthly regardless of days flown. That seems pretty fair to me - and seems like a reasonable day rate to charge when I put myself out there for contract work.

I don't want to sell myself short, and I know that my rate needs to be on the lower end (with only 350TT), but I don't want to undercut and negatively affect all the other contract pilots out there.

I've also heard people telling me that my day rate should be set on the type of contract (SIC, PIC, aircraft type), and others telling me that the only thing that matters when setting my rate is what's on the back of my license (CE500 PIC, SIC required)

Any ideas?
 
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ALOT of it depends on your market (geographic area). What contractors get in Phoenix, SoCal or NY/NJ is typically going to be a bit more than guys in Birmingham, Lexington or Raleigh, NC

I am SIC typed/current in the CE-500 and get $400/day plus expenses to right seat in a Bravo here in Norfolk, VA.

In this bidness (pilot contracting), how much you charge is primarily affected by demand vs pilot availability.

Personally, I think that $500/day for a CE-500 PIC is a little low, but that may be the going rate for your area. You might charge more, but obviously don't want to price yourself out of a job.

As far as a suborn
 
As far as a subforum, it sounds good, but the majority of folks here at POA are not professional pilots, and whenever pro threads come up, too many recreational guys feel the need to chime in and add their two cents to threads that they really have no stake in.

I usually go to ProPilotWorld.com for the professional advice.
 
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Biggest problem you'll probably have is finding people to contract a 350-hour PIC in a Citation...and if they're not gonna hire you as a PIC, they're not gonna pay you as one, regardless of what your certificate says.
 
Anthony8822 said:
For example, I'm taking my Citation II PIC checkride next week.

I don't want to sell myself short, and I know that my rate needs to be on the lower end (with only 350TT), but I don't want to undercut and negatively affect all the other contract pilots out there.
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Am I reading that right? You have 350TT and are taking your CE-500 PIC check ride? What is your strategy? If those numbers are correct, you might have some issues getting PIC contract work. Are you planning on contracting as SIC?

I say that because as a guy with 1200 TT, I've missed a few right seat jobs due to my low time vs insurance requirements. I'd be very surprised if you were able to land many left seat jobs at 350TT even with a PIC type.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Am I reading that right? You have 350TT and are taking your CE-500 PIC check ride? What is your strategy? If those numbers are correct, you might have some issues getting PIC contract work. Are you planning on contracting as SIC?

I say that because as a guy with 1200 TT, I've missed a few right seat jobs due to my low time vs insurance requirements. I'd be very surprised if you were able to land many left seat jobs at 350TT even with a PIC type.
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Perhaps he was trying to say 350 turbine time. I didn't think it was possible to work as pic for hire on type rated aircraft without atp.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Perhaps he was trying to say 350 turbine time. I didn't think it was possible to work as pic for hire on type rated aircraft without atp.
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Part 91 can do it, but not 135 passenger ops...and not 135 IFR PIC at all below 1200TT.
 
Anthony8822 said:
Any ideas?
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Yes. If you have a type rating, you are in a niche market regardless of your total time. If they can insure you, you should be paid the market rate for the skill you have based on your experience using that skill.
 
I've been offered $500 plus expenses to sit in the right seat of a single-pilot-certified jet and do the "admin" stuff -- radios, etc. Can't log time but it's still $500. This is out in Dallas.
 
Harold Rutila said:
I've been offered $500 plus expenses to sit in the right seat of a single-pilot-certified jet and do the "admin" stuff -- radios, etc. Can't log time but it's still $500. This is out in Dallas.
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Heck I'll do that for half the price. Well... depending on what the 'etc.' is.
 
In the Wichita area, 4-500 per day is the going rate for a few pilots I know, up to and including turboprop. Not sure if the fan commands a greater rate around here. One company charges 50.00 per hour for single and 60 for multi and multi turboprop, he caps out at 8 hours. Kind of nice if you only need someone for a couple of hours to not have to pay a full day rate.

Jim
 
MauleSkinner said:
Biggest problem you'll probably have is finding people to contract a 350-hour PIC in a Citation...and if they're not gonna hire you as a PIC, they're not gonna pay you as one, regardless of what your certificate says.
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Yeah, I understand that. That's why I'm putting my name out for basically anything cabin twin or turbine, both PIC and SIC.

Fearless Tower said:
Am I reading that right? You have 350TT and are taking your CE-500 PIC check ride? What is your strategy? If those numbers are correct, you might have some issues getting PIC contract work. Are you planning on contracting as SIC?

I say that because as a guy with 1200 TT, I've missed a few right seat jobs due to my low time vs insurance requirements. I'd be very surprised if you were able to land many left seat jobs at 350TT even with a PIC type.
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Yeah, I'm going for SIC stuff until my total time gets up higher.

Tarheelpilot said:
Perhaps he was trying to say 350 turbine time. I didn't think it was possible to work as pic for hire on type rated aircraft without atp.
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Nope, I landed the "Unicorn" job as its been described. PIC in a Citation 501 at 350 total time.
 
Harold Rutila said:
I've been offered $500 plus expenses to sit in the right seat of a single-pilot-certified jet and do the "admin" stuff -- radios, etc. Can't log time but it's still $500. This is out in Dallas.
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You can probably log the time SIC. The Citation I'm flying is single pilot certified - if the pilot has the single pilot certification. I'd check on that.
 
Anthony8822 said:
You can probably log the time SIC. The Citation I'm flying is single pilot certified - if the pilot has the single pilot certification. I'd check on that.
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Curious to know how you got this gig. You're one of the very few who have landed that with such a low TT. Please share your story if you don't mind.
 
Fearless Tower said:
As far as a subform, it sounds good, but the majority of folks here at POA are not professional pilots, and whenever pro threads come up, too many recreational guys feel the need to chime in and add their two cents to threads that they really have stake in.

I usually go to ProPilotWorld.com for the professional advice.
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Ditto.

Either there or JetCareers.com. As with any other forum, quality can vary, and they both have their streaks of nonsense, but the focus is on career pilots.
 
Anthony8822 said:
You can probably log the time SIC. The Citation I'm flying is single pilot certified - if the pilot has the single pilot certification. I'd check on that.
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Depends entirely on how the aircraft was certified.

If the aircraft was type certified as a two pilot airplane, like the CE-550 or CE-560, then yes, the SIC can log the time.

If the aircraft was certified as Single Pilot (such as the CE-525), then No, you can't log SIC time unless it is under something like a 135 certificate where the FAA approved operating manual requires two pilots.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Depends entirely on how the aircraft was certified.
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not entirely...
If the aircraft was certified as Single Pilot (such as the CE-525), then No, you can't log SIC time unless it is under something like a 135 certificate where the FAA approved operating manual requires two pilots.
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...or if, as the OP mentioned, the PIC's type rating requires an SIC.
 
MauleSkinner said:
not entirely...

...or if, as the OP mentioned, the PIC's type rating requires an SIC.
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Valid point. But generally speaking, if the pilot is fully typed in the single pilot certified jet, then you can't log SIC. A lot of people get confused thinking that an insurance requirement for a second pilot means you can log it, which isn't the case.
 
Someone hired your as PIC in a jet with 350tt?

That's not a unicorn job, unless your 350hrs were in some major hot rods, that's a oops job. Try not to kill anyone.
 
Interestingly (or not ;) ), I briefly held a single pilot waiver for a Citation 500, and even though the airplane was certified as requiring a crew of two (hence the waiver), it was not legal to fly as a two pilot airplane.

If I recall the details of the reg correctly (and I'm not gonna look it up), since it was a jet with more than 5 passenger seats, it needed a CVR to be operated two-pilot, but it didn't have one installed.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Interestingly (or not ;) ), I briefly held a single pilot waiver for a Citation 500, and even though the airplane was certified as requiring a crew of two (hence the waiver), it was not legal to fly as a two pilot airplane.

If I recall the details of the reg correctly (and I'm not gonna look it up), since it was a jet with more than 5 passenger seats, it needed a CVR to be operated two-pilot, but it didn't have one installed.
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I believe it.

There were some strange things coming out of the factory.
 
I thought if you had less than 1500 hrs?? You had some sort of conditional, supervised type rating for the first 25 hours. Not that that's a big deal, but who would hire you as pic with that time??
Not to be harsh, but for a jet capt that is laughable... even for a straight wing Citation.
 
$500/day in a jet PIC is low. I can get that in a single/multi turboprop.

As far as this thread goes, @Fearless Tower has given you all of the information you need.
 
If this is true, stay away from this airplane... nothing against the guy personally, but fact is "he doesn't know what he doesn't know".

He will get his butt kicked at some point.
 
350 hours???? You haven't even been scared yet!

Who the hell is paying you $500/day at 350 hours?

Fools and their money I guess.
 
DavidWhite said:
350 hours???? You haven't even been scared yet!

Who the hell is paying you $500/day at 350 hours?

Fools and their money I guess.
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I had about 2000 hours when I got my 500 type rating, all but 500 of it was a mix of multi and turbine and I felt lost for the first 50 hours! I couldn't imagine getting typed at 350 hours TT!! :eek:
 
Kritchlow said:
I thought if you had less than 1500 hrs?? You had some sort of conditional, supervised type rating for the first 25 hours. Not that that's a big deal, but who would hire you as pic with that time??
Not to be harsh, but for a jet capt that is laughable... even for a straight wing Citation.
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1500 hrs has nothing to do with it.

Regardless of total time, if it is his first jet type, he will need 25 hours of supervised experience before being able to act as PIC.
 
Fearless Tower said:
1500 hrs has nothing to do with it.

Regardless of total time, if it is his first jet type, he will need 25 hours of supervised experience before being able to act as PIC.
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At one point in history it was an either / or. When I got my first type the supervision was waived because of my total time. I admit that was a while back though and has likely changed.
 
Fearless Tower said:
the majority of folks here at POA are not professional pilots, and whenever pro threads come up, too many recreational guys feel the need to chime in and add their two cents to threads that they really have no stake in.
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Yes but they're certain they could easily do the job of ANY airline pilot - it's just that transition to a low wing plane that's holding them back !
 
As others have mentioned, it is very unique for you to have the opportunity that you have. I didn't get the opportunity to do any professional flying until I had my ATP, my first Type Rating and about 900 hours of Turbine PIC, so you are in a good position. I would be less concerned about the amount your day rate and focus more on learning how to be a professional pilot and building quality time.

To answer your question, I also have had challenges in finding out what a reasonable contract rate should be. However, my contract rate depends upon the aircraft and the seat that I am in. My contract rate is $500 for PIC on a Meridian; $600 for PIC on an Eclipse; $600 for SIC on a Phenom 300; and $700 for SIC on a Legacy 500. Those rates seem to be about right in my area, although I am flexible if market conditions require it or I am confident that I will get more flying from the operator.

Good luck to you and enjoy the adventure.

Abram Finkelstein
N48KY
 
Ryanb said:
Curious to know how you got this gig. You're one of the very few who have landed that with such a low TT. Please share your story if you don't mind.
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I've known my boss since I started working on my primary 5 years ago. Always helped him out in the hangar, walked his wing on the tug, etc. In the meantime, I developed a really solid reputation as a safe pilot and a good stick and rudder man. I got my 2 year degree (still working on 4 year) in aviation, then went back to the local airport to get my CFI. After I got my CFI it was hard to find work in my area. I got on the insurance at the local airport, and got on full time at an airport an hour South of me, but students have been hard to come by. I was spending every waking moment at airports for 3 months looking for work. My boss is actually a 30,000 hour pilot who lost his medical. Then his pilot decided to move on to greener pastures (part 135 or 121), and my boss was up a creek. He needed a full-time PIC and really enjoys teaching. He actually has a reputation in the area for hiring very low time pilots and giving them their big break. One day he pulled me aside and made me the offer. I jumped on it.

Fearless Tower said:
Is the company paying for your training?
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Half of it, but the contract pays for itself in 6 months and I'm allowed to do any other flying on the side.

James331 said:
Someone hired your as PIC in a jet with 350tt?

That's not a unicorn job, unless your 350hrs were in some major hot rods, that's a oops job. Try not to kill anyone.
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I've actually had a really easy time in the sim. My instructors are all very happy with my performance, and say that I'm ahead of the game.

Kritchlow said:
I thought if you had less than 1500 hrs?? You had some sort of conditional, supervised type rating for the first 25 hours. Not that that's a big deal, but who would hire you as pic with that time??
Not to be harsh, but for a jet capt that is laughable... even for a straight wing Citation.
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It's called SOE, and I'll be working with another captain for a few months until that gets taken off. Won't be an issue.

Kritchlow said:
If this is true, stay away from this airplane... nothing against the guy personally, but fact is "he doesn't know what he doesn't know".

He will get his butt kicked at some point.
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That's pretty cynical, don't you think? We all pass the same test. We all go through the same training. What's the difference between me and a 1500 hour Skyhawk CFI going into the same position?
 
Anthony8822 said:
What's the difference between me and a 1500 hour Skyhawk CFI going into the same position?
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For one it's not likley a 172 -> a PIC jet

But to answer your question, experience.



So does the owner ride up front with you?
 
Abram said:
As others have mentioned, it is very unique for you to have the opportunity that you have. I didn't get the opportunity to do any professional flying until I had my ATP, my first Type Rating and about 900 hours of Turbine PIC, so you are in a good position. I would be less concerned about the amount your day rate and focus more on learning how to be a professional pilot and building quality time
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I definitely am. However, I still have bills to pay. Like I said, I'm not expecting top pay - or anything close to it - I just don't want to undercut the market and hurt other pilots, and I have to keep the rent paid.
 
Anthony8822 said:
We all pass the same test. We all go through the same training. What's the difference between me and a 1500 hour Skyhawk CFI going into the same position?
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1150 hours, just for starters. And while time by itself means nothing, in general it indicates a higher level of experience that can be applied to the operation. And while that 1500-hour CFI might not have attained the level of experience I think is appropriate to that amount of flight time, there is no way a 350-hour pilot has the level of experience I think is appropriate to a 1500-hour pilot.

The fact that a pilot can fly to PTS requirements means next to nothing relative to flying in the real world. If you can't demonstrate the stuff you just spent a bunch of time training on, something is seriously wrong.
 
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MauleSkinner said:
1150 hours, just for starters. And while time by itself means nothing, in general it indicates a higher level of experience that can be applied to the operation. And while that 1500-hour CFI might not have attained the level of experience I think is appropriate to that amount of flight time, there is no way a 350-hour pilot has the level of experience I think is appropriate to a 1500-hour pilot.

The fact that a pilot can fly to PTS requirements means next to nothing relative to flying in the real world. If you can't demonstrate the stuff you just spent a bunch of time training on, something is seriously wrong.
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Well ultimately that's a moot point. Kid has the job.
 
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