Considering an offer...too low?

gitmo234 said:
He's fixing the spinner issue. The thought of welding it makes me kinda "iffy" but if it gets fixed and not out of my pocket, I'm buying it.

I talked to my local FBO and he said 90% of the airplanes that he doesnt own or lease but are parked at the FBO dont have an AD list.
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TIG, sand, and buff, no worries.
 
Looks like a great airplane, and it sounds like the purchase process is going well. Congrats, man!
 
How did you like working with Indy Air? They seem to get a decent amount of planes coming through the office and are close enough to me that I would use them if they had something I wanted.
 
They seemed decent enough to me. What will turn me off of any sale is high-pressure car-salesman-like tactics. I called Mark and he gave me a fairly decent "once over" the airplane on the phone, gave me a good generalized idea of what to expect, what they'll likely find and how the process worked and that was it. I could have hung up and never heard anything again, never gotten 500+ email and phone call follow ups, etc.

The only thing I didnt like was that I picked up what felt like a hint of them not believing i was that interested because im still a student pilot. Nothing overt but it just something I may have (falsely) picked up.

So far I'd buy from them again if had to.
 
Something I just noticed in the maintenance report... maybe I should post in the maintenance forum separately but the engine has great compression and the mechanic said it ran great but it hasnt been overhauled since the 80's. its maintained since then but only has 500 hours of flight time since.

Thoughts from the pros?
 
gitmo234 said:
... it hasnt been overhauled since the 80's. its maintained since then but only has 500 hours of flight time since ...
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I know someone who just passed on an exceptionally nice airplane that had 500 hours and rebuilt in the mid-90s. Because of the elderly rebuild, they had the prebuy mechanic pull a jug so he could visually inspect the cam and lifters. The whole inside of the engine was rusted. He immediately pronounced it to be unairworthy.

Good luck!
 
gitmo234 said:
Something I just noticed in the maintenance report... maybe I should post in the maintenance forum separately but the engine has great compression and the mechanic said it ran great but it hasnt been overhauled since the 80's. its maintained since then but only has 500 hours of flight time since.

Thoughts from the pros?
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Pictures of the engine?

Looking for:
Rusty steel fasteners? Corrosion of the bare aluminum baffles? Spark plug wire condition? Corroded spark plugs? Rusty valve covers? Torn loose, worn baffles seals? What does the dipstick itself look like? Oil filler cap inside?

I could go on and on and on....

IMHO, just pulling a few valve covers (easy) is pretty telling of how the rest of the engine looks inside. Rusty rocker arms, rust rocker shafts valve spring corrosion etc.

Boresope of cylinders specifically looking for pitting/material loss on cylinder walls preferred.
 
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Now we know one of the reasons for the lower price. With an old rebuild, you don't know what you don't know. Pretty much anything from the peanut gallery(like me) would be marginal informed speculation.

Best case; No issues, will continue to run great for 1500 hours.
Medium case; One or two jugs over the next 250 hours for various age/use-related failure modes.
Semi-Worst case; Spalled cam lobes, split the case, replace cam and lifters as needed, clean and reassemble.
Worst case; Fails in flight, which is very, very unlikely.
 
airdale said:
I know someone who just passed on an exceptionally nice airplane that had 500 hours and rebuilt in the mid-90s. Because of the elderly rebuild, they had the prebuy mechanic pull a jug so he could visually inspect the cam and lifters. The whole inside of the engine was rusted. He immediately pronounced it to be unairworthy.

Good luck!
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reading through the logbooks now it looks like a crankshaft seal was replaced in 2012. I'm gonna call and have him take a look inside.
 
gitmo234 said:
... I'm gonna call and have him take a look inside.
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Wise. Pulling a jug will cost a few hundred bucks but it's the only way to be reasonably sure you're not buying junk. Most of the value of the airplane is in that 1500 hours left before TBO and if those hours are not there you will be a very unhappy camper.

Negotiating 101: Never, ever fall in love with a deal.
 
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Good news. It's Alclad AL. Bad news, you've got some cancer.

I'd get a borescope in that engine. Borescopes are cheap as heck on ebay, well worth a look down in there. May want to take off a valve cover, rocker arm, pushrod, and pushrod tube and have a good look at the cam lobe.
 
docmirror said:
Good news. It's Alclad AL. Bad news, you've got some cancer.

I'd get a borescope in that engine. Borescopes are cheap as heck on ebay, well worth a look down in there. May want to take off a valve cover, rocker arm, pushrod, and pushrod tube and have a good look at the cam lobe.
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I didn't see any pics above the headliner zipper. Any where that yellow bull **** insulation batting is wet up there can do some real damage.
 
DUDE! I cant get to the pictures at work, and now im going nuts. I've looked through them once. The inspection report said there was some external corrosion and they recommended a corrosion treatment every 2 years.
 
gitmo234 said:
DUDE! I cant get to the pictures at work, and now im going nuts. I've looked through them once. The inspection report said there was some external corrosion and they recommended a corrosion treatment every 2 years.
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Not yelling at you. Cessna's idea of insulation was a bad idea.... Should be a zipper in the headliner where you can see at least some of what is up there without too much effort.
 
no, my post was just a general statement like "holy **** i want to look at them really bad", not geared at anyone. sorry about that.
 
docmirror said:
I'd get a borescope in that engine. Borescopes are cheap as heck on ebay, well worth a look down in there. May want to take off a valve cover, rocker arm, pushrod, and pushrod tube and have a good look at the cam lobe.
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Not to get into an argument here, but a borescope is called a "bore" scope because it lets you look at the cylinder bores. That's not a bad idea, but it does not let you look into the engine case and inspect the crank, cam, and lifters. To do a decent job of that you need to pull a jug.

Re inspecting the cam by pulling a pushrod, I am not familiar with any engine that lets you also pull the lifter, which is between the pushrod and the cam. It is the cam lobes and the lifter faces (that run on the cam lobes) that you want to see. It may be possible on this engine. I don't know.
 
ELT? What's the mount look like? I've see some really poor installs from the 60's where they just used scrap aluminum junk to build a tray, since these old aircraft did not come with radio rack trays/shelves or ELTs back then.
 
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We are going to have a collaborative thread on how to perform a pre-buy when this is all finished.
 
Zippered headliner is right behind the harness. I can see the same thing in the wings.

Pull up pic 79. That is not a good thing. <edit; 16 and 19 also look a bit ugh.>
 
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airdale said:
Not to get into an argument here, but a borescope is called a "bore" scope because it lets you look at the cylinder bores.
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Well, that's good because you are wrong. :wink2:
 
docmirror said:
Zippered headliner is right behind the harness. I can see the same thing in the wings.

Pull up pic 79. That is not a good thing.
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Can't even really get any $ out of the engine should a guy scrap it.

That brings up another question, early O-300 crank (you can't even get anymore) or a late O-300 crank (still in production)? I'd have a hard time buying an old old O-300 that would require a prop replacement should the crank be junk.
 
gitmo234 said:
Something I just noticed in the maintenance report... maybe I should post in the maintenance forum separately but the engine has great compression and the mechanic said it ran great but it hasnt been overhauled since the 80's. its maintained since then but only has 500 hours of flight time since.

Thoughts from the pros?
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500 hours over 20 years. 25 hours per year is not much. there is a lot of potential for corrosion.
 
eman1200 said:
A $20k offer on $25k is not unreasonable, especially if you show serious intent to purchase (aka cash).
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I wouldn't consider 20k on 25k a lowball. A seller might not be happy with it and want to counter a little higher, but I don't think you would scare them off.

Lowball offers are a good way to lose a deal and generally not worth the time. I don't like to lowball people. If someone has too high of an asking price that I can't even offer 70% of what they're asking, I don't bother following up on the ad.
 
bnt83 said:
We are going to have a collaborative thread on how to perform a pre-buy when this is all finished.
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And it would be a Really Good Thing® if those who have DONE a prebuy, who are QUALIFIED AND CERTIFICATED to do a prebuy, and those who have been IN THE GAME for a while were the ones posting (those are all AND statements, not OR statements, Booleans).

Hearing that Uncle Ferd's girlfriend's hairdresser's second cousin's mailman had a bad prebuy gets just a little old.

Thanks,

Jim
.
.
.
 
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bnt83 said:
Pictures of the engine?

Looking for:
Rusty steel fasteners? Corrosion of the bare aluminum baffles? Spark plug wire condition? Corroded spark plugs? Rusty valve covers? Torn loose, worn baffles seals? What does the dipstick itself look like? Oil filler cap inside?

I could go on and on and on....

IMHO, just pulling a few valve covers (easy) is pretty telling of how the rest of the engine looks inside. Rusty rocker arms, rust rocker shafts valve spring corrosion etc.

Boresope of cylinders specifically looking for pitting/material loss on cylinder walls preferred.
Click to expand...

gitmo234 said:
reading through the logbooks now it looks like a crankshaft seal was replaced in 2012. I'm gonna call and have him take a look inside.
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Ah great subject! Stories are pretty much the same usually go like this:

"Bought a plane with low time that sat for 4 years or was only flown on average 15 hours a year for the last so many years..."

The endings however vary between:

1) I flew the snot out of that plane for 8 years put another 850 hours on it and it ran like a top. Had the A&P look at the insides of the engine at my first annual and he said it looked like it was just shipped from the factory.

or

2) Got the plane home and four months later after flying 40 hours it started making metal like the Bethlehem Steel Company and had to OH the engine.

So it would seem and Brian correct me if I'm wrong, the only way to know is to pull a jug and take a peek. The problem with that is that I'd think a seller is going to be VERY skiddish about letting you pull a jug on a pre-buy.
 
Is there a way to look up someone by their IA #? The logs are clearly readable for every annual for the last 14 years, and I can read the number on the last person who did an annual last may.
 
AdamZ said:
... the only way to know is to pull a jug and take a peek. The problem with that is that I'd think a seller is going to be VERY skiddish about letting you pull a jug on a pre-buy.
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Scenario I mentioned the seller had no problem at all. Somewhat surprising, actually, but in the end he wants to sell the airplane and he has a bird in hand. It does probably mean new rings and a full-rich, mineral oil break-in period to seat them.

If the seller won't permit it, then I'd suggest to the OP that he walk or be willing to accept the likelihood of your scenario #2.
 
weirdjim said:
And it would be a Really Good Thing® if those who have DONE a prebuy, who are QUALIFIED AND CERTIFICATED to do a prebuy, and those who have been IN THE GAME for a while were the ones posting (those are all AND statements, not OR statements, Booleans).

Hearing that Uncle Ferd's girlfriend's hairdresser's second cousin's mailman had a bad prebuy gets just a little old.

Thanks,

Jim
.
.
.
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Which certificate is required to do a pre-buy? What requirements are there in any FAR/AIM/etc for the pre-buy? I guess this goes back to the "can an owner run a comp test on a plane?" question. If a guy with a student pilot certificate looks at a C150 spam can, kicks the tires, lights the fire, and turns on the navcom, does that qualify? Maybe I shouldn't be in this thread cuz I don't have whatever certificate there is for a pre-buy.
 
weirdjim said:
And it would be a Really Good Thing® if those who have DONE a prebuy, who are QUALIFIED AND CERTIFICATED to do a prebuy, and those who have been IN THE GAME for a while were the ones posting (those are all AND statements, not OR statements, Booleans).

Hearing that Uncle Ferd's girlfriend's hairdresser's second cousin's mailman had a bad prebuy gets just a little old.

Thanks,

Jim
.
.
.
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I agree, but the diarrhea of the fingers without contributing a thing is just as bad.
 
gitmo234 said:
Is there a way to look up someone by their IA #? The logs are clearly readable for every annual for the last 14 years, and I can read the number on the last person who did an annual last may.
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Annuals almost certainly don't include a look inside the engine. That said, the seller should be willing to connect you with the guy(s) who did the annual(s).

Edit: If they won't, that is a big red flag.
 
bnt83 said:
I agree, but the diarrhea of the fingers without contributing a thing is just as bad.
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:rofl::rofl: Clean up on aisle 3! I spilt Dr Pepper on my keyboard. Well done sir, while committing a bit of finger diarrhea myself . :rofl::rofl:
 
Seller basically said I can do whatever I want as part of the pre-buy, provided i pay for it and he'll have the previous A&Ps number to me shortly.

This is srsbsns.
 
weirdjim said:
And it would be a Really Good Thing® if those who have DONE a prebuy, who are QUALIFIED AND CERTIFICATED to do a prebuy, and those who have been IN THE GAME for a while were the ones posting (those are all AND statements, not OR statements, Booleans).

Hearing that Uncle Ferd's girlfriend's hairdresser's second cousin's mailman had a bad prebuy gets just a little old.

Thanks,

Jim
.
.
.
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can't I just use stories I've heard on the internet to back up my claims? :dunno: :lol:
 
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