Considering an offer...too low?

Alexb2000 said:
The variable is not price but demand. Yes, the corolla has a lot of demand, and I knew that, so did the smart buyer that came after her. My time is worth more than spending weeks trying to eeeekk the last $100 out of it, but I didn't have to give it away either.

Planes are the same way. With 172 rentals at $140-170 an hour, a used but clean 172 for $25K will sell all day every day. Every pilot knows this. Sure you'll pay a fair price, BUT when you sell it you'll also quickly get a fair price without having to put up with a bunch of low balling.
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... What if 172s rent in the area for $105 - 110 w/530 ? Which maybe why I see the valuation differently. Because at that price I'm paying ~$55 - 60 hr dry for the privilege of not having any fixed costs on the plane.

Edited about 5 after ... Totally get your point about demand, and completely agree, which is why I used the word "value" which I believe is related to demand, whereas a "price" can be much more subjective.
 
This raises another question.... state taxes...???

When I do make the purchase, where can i find the requirements for state registration (if any), and paying taxes? I live in PA and I've done some google research but just find muddy answers.
 
gitmo234 said:
I'm in negotiations as we speak.
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From many years of buying and selling used capital equipment I have learned that negotiations are much more about the buyer and the seller than about the equipment or its price.

Try to learn as much as you can about the seller. Does he have plenty of money? If so, the negotiations are a game and the price is the game points. Lots of points, he wins. Not enough points (he picks the number), he loses. Does the seller not have much money? If so, and especially if there is a loan on the airplane, every dollar may be critical to him How confident is the seller in negotiating? Is he timid and uncertain or confident and experienced?

And yourself: Can you comfortably pay the asking price? If so, this is a game for you too. If every dollar is critical, then understand that about yourself. Are you in love with the airplane? Don't be.

Is either of you in a hurry? He who is in a hurry loses. If the other guy is in a hurry, slow things down. If you are in a hurry and (worse) in love, abandon the deal now before you do something stupid.

Do your negotiating only after thoroughly thinking through the people dynamics and remember too: If you aren't willing to leave the table, you aren't negotiating. You are begging.
 
eman1200 said:
yup, throw in a low ball cash offer. low ball, but let them know you're serious about buying. never pay "full price" or close to it.
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You are sending contradictory messages, you are either bottom feeding, or you are a serious buyer, which is it?
 
Theboys said:
If someone is asking a fair price why is it required to try to insult them?
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Because it is part of winning, you must win at everything. A fair deal is not good enough, you have to get a steal on it.
 
Appears to be in good condition, nice buy. I'm guessing it still has the O-300 with no vacuum pump since it still has the venturis on it. Well, if you ever decide to go glass, you can always hook them up to relief tubes. :D
 
Will do. Other than the stone-age panel, im getting nothing but good feedback from those i know in person who are experienced.

Intent is to fly into the DC FRZ for work (on VFR days) and also hit up ocean city maryland on some weekends. So a lot of flights no more than an hour each way. There will, of course, be some longer flights mixed in here and there
 
Alexb2000 said:
I was selling a Toyota Corolla, automatic, air, never wrecked, nice little car with 150K, for $2000. First day I get this woman who comes to look at it. She is crawling around on the ground, looking under the trunk, staring at the paint from 6 inches away. She spends lots of time pointing out any little thing she can find, "Oh there is a little dirt on the carpet right here, see it?". Then she says, "I'll give you $1000". I say, "No". She says, "1,100", and so on. Finally she wants to know how much I'll take. I say the car isn't for sale. She says, what? I tell her the car isn't for sale to her at any price. She says, "Fine, fine, I'll give you the $2,000, I really need the car to get to work". I tell her it's not for sale to her at $5,000. She tells me off and leaves. I sell the car to the very next person, $2000, took 5 minutes, no B.S.

I go through this low baller stuff with everything. I price it aggressively enough that it will sell and I don't even respond to low ballers.

Just the other side of the coin.
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Why not??? I would have taken $5,000 deposited $2,000 bought another for $2k and blew a grand on whatever.
 
docmirror said:
My favorite line from sellers is; "What is your lowest price?" Usually this is on the phone.

My answer is; "My lowest price is the price I asked for in the ad. If you want to pay less, make an offer."

Which is responded to by; "Uh, how much less can you take?"

Followed by; "You can never tell until you make an offer."

The 'what is your lowest price' people rarely show up to look, and never, ever are buyers unless it's being given away. I also had that lady who inspected my car from every inch, pointed out all the flaws, made a low offer, and we finally got back to my asking offer and I rejected it. She called me twice the following week trying to buy it, and the car is still in my lake house as a runabout. I've sold stuff to people like that who've actually come back and complained and said they were going to sue me. I even had a guy in CA take it to small claims court on a 15YO truck. The judge was not amused.
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Why are you wasting their time, if you're not going to sell it?
 
gitmo234 said:
Will do. Other than the stone-age panel, im getting nothing but good feedback from those i know in person who are experienced.

Intent is to fly into the DC FRZ for work (on VFR days) and also hit up ocean city maryland on some weekends. So a lot of flights no more than an hour each way. There will, of course, be some longer flights mixed in here and there
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Nice paint scheme. :yes:
 
gitmo234 said:
The bird is mine at just over $25k, pending the outcome of a mechanical inspection of course.

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/mobile/detailedResults?listingID=1770346&searchType=make
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DOH!! You left extra money on the table! I could have gotten that for you for $24,992.67. Jeez louis -- some people, I tell ya. :D:D

Good job, congrats. I liked it from the first time I saw it. Just didn't need another plane, and I'm no Cessna expert, which means I'm a little skittish. Many years of happy flying. It looked like it had the shoulder harness kit, but they didn't reply to my question about that. If it doesn't, get them added asap.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Why not??? I would have taken $5,000 deposited $2,000 bought another for $2k and blew a grand on whatever.
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She never offered $5k and wouln't have. If i would have said yes to $2k, she would have tried more negociation. Dealing with cheap people is a waste of time, they believe if you're not in agony over the deal they've left money on the table. I worked hard my whole life so that i can tell people like that to go pound sand.i strive to make my dealings a win-win, that's how i sleep at night.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Why are you wasting their time, if you're not going to sell it?
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Um - huh? The part you bolded said I already sold it, and you are asking my about not selling it?

See if I can clarify: I sold a used something to someone. They left, and then came back complaining about this or that, and said they wanted to sue me for xxx or yyy or zzz. It was sold "as is, where is, no warranty or guarantee written or verbal, buyer assumes all responsibility for condition". Specifically, I sold a well used, scruffy, chipped paint, modified Kawasaki X2 jet ski to a 22YO kid. He went out the next weekend and blew up the engine. I used it for three years every summer and never had a bit of trouble. I'm not the designer, engineer, builder, factory, etc. I'm just a guy selling a used jet ski that I didn't need anymore. If anyone got their time wasted it was me.
 
gitmo234 said:
This raises another question.... state taxes...???

When I do make the purchase, where can i find the requirements for state registration (if any), and paying taxes? I live in PA and I've done some google research but just find muddy answers.
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Gitmo:

PA would charge you a use tax equal to the PA state Sales Tax of 6%. You might want to check with your CPA to see if you might be able to avoid some of that but I doubt it. People often think they can get around this by registering in DE but if you base your plane here the Dept. of Revenue will find you and send you a bill.

Where in PA are you based?
 
AdamZ said:
Gitmo:

PA would charge you a use tax equal to the PA state Sales Tax of 6%. You might want to check with your CPA to see if you might be able to avoid some of that but I doubt it. People often think they can get around this by registering in DE but if you base your plane here the Dept. of Revenue will find you and send you a bill.

Where in PA are you based?
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This is true. The PA tax people are faily efficient at it. Figure you will see a bill in 2-4 months after purchase.

Gary
 
I live in Oxford, PA, but I actually base out of Harford County (0W3). I'm in an odd area that the drive to Harford county MD, Cecil County MD, and New Garden airport are all about the same (+/- 25 minutes).

So the plane would be based out of 0W3. I live very close to 95 so it's not that far.

I work near DC about 5 miles from College park airport. It normally takes me an hour and 15 to get to work (straight down 95) and 1:45+ to get home, particularly on fridays. The intent is to take the bird to work as much as possible and it would cut my times (at least coming home) considerably, but also make it 100x less annoying/stressful, etc.

That combined with the occasional weekend in Ocean City, and the rare cross country with the wife and dog (dog harness is already awaiting installation), and I think this one will serve the purpose.
 
Good lookin' airplane! And I love the fact that it has the right wheel pants on it. Nothing makes me cringe quite like seeing wheel pants from the late 60s or 70s on a beautiful old straight tail.

It's like putting on your best suit along with a pair of converse all stars!
 
Nice looking plane.

Seems like a good deal, you will know for sure in 2 years.

Hope it all goes well.
 
docmirror said:
Um - huh? The part you bolded said I already sold it, and you are asking my about not selling it?

See if I can clarify: I sold a used something to someone. They left, and then came back complaining about this or that, and said they wanted to sue me for xxx or yyy or zzz. It was sold "as is, where is, no warranty or guarantee written or verbal, buyer assumes all responsibility for condition". Specifically, I sold a well used, scruffy, chipped paint, modified Kawasaki X2 jet ski to a 22YO kid. He went out the next weekend and blew up the engine. I used it for three years every summer and never had a bit of trouble. I'm not the designer, engineer, builder, factory, etc. I'm just a guy selling a used jet ski that I didn't need anymore. If anyone got their time wasted it was me.
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I misread. My bad.
 
Thanks for the feedback everyone! Here and elsewhere i'm getting a lot of positive feedback about the plane. Lets hope it was a lucky find vs someones problem.
 
The only downside I see is that you're dealing with a broker and not the seller. I've worked with Mark at Indy sales once before and my experience was some good, some not so good. I found a bunch of mistakes in the logs, and passed it on to them, and they passed it on to the seller, and the seller basically took the logs and made a bunch of correction entries and sent it back which didn't reflect the actual state of the plane. It took me three tries through Indy sales before things were sorted out well.

Check the logs against the plane carefully.
 
Love the 50's 172s and that is a fantastic example. If that sold for 25K what are the ratty 50's 172s really worth?
 
I have to admit I was wondering why this is priced so low. I only found one or two similar in this price range that also had low engine time and they werent exactly "lookers".

All the others in this range needed an overhaul very, very soon. I guess we'll see come inspection time.
 
Inspection has begun. I found who sounded like a customer service oriented (ie professional and friendly) inspector nearby who told me that the age of the airplane really limited the amount that was inspect-able so he gave me a low price, and said I will received around 300ish or so pictures of everything.

Its been popped open and the preliminary look is "really great", cosmetically and it looks well cared for. Lets hope that's not hiding anything.

In case anyone is wondering I'm going with Groh Aviation
 
message from my mechanic.. "Here are the pictures from the inspection, we are almost done typing up the inspection report and will have it to you soon"

Pacing my living room starts now
 
Issues found:

Minor surface corrosion on a handful of spots around the exterior, considered not major, recommends corrosion treatment biennially

3 in crack in passenger window - not an airworthiness issue, replace when possible

No air worthiness directives list has been kept. Maintenance shows recurring AD's are complied with but no comprehensive list (rebuilding list will be included in inspection)

Spinner and bulkhead is cracked - Air worthiness issue. Estimated cost to replace $1200-$1500 (seller has agreed to weld or replace the spinner)

Otherwise: brakes new, compression: 80's, avionics work great, evidence the aircraft has been well maintained.
 
Congrats...... maybe.....

Or, maybe not......

And, just because you get a list, it doesn't mean they all need to be fixed, or, they all are important.

I have seen people argue over some pretty minor things that end up being deal breakers, that don't really matter.
 
He's fixing the spinner issue. The thought of welding it makes me kinda "iffy" but if it gets fixed and not out of my pocket, I'm buying it.

I talked to my local FBO and he said 90% of the airplanes that he doesnt own or lease but are parked at the FBO dont have an AD list.
 
gitmo234 said:
Issues found:

Minor surface corrosion on a handful of spots around the exterior, considered not major, recommends corrosion treatment biennially

3 in crack in passenger window - not an airworthiness issue, replace when possible

No air worthiness directives list has been kept. Maintenance shows recurring AD's are complied with but no comprehensive list (rebuilding list will be included in inspection)

Spinner and bulkhead is cracked - Air worthiness issue. Estimated cost to replace $1200-$1500 (seller has agreed to weld or replace the spinner)

Otherwise: brakes new, compression: 80's, avionics work great, evidence the aircraft has been well maintained.
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Go into this thing expecting to spend a little money to get it 100% and you will be happy. From what you said I would be ecstatic.
 
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