concern regarding CFI

U

Unregistered

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I am a private pilot student with >70 hrs and am anticipating my check ride shortly. Through this process I have been trained by an older CFII who is a career instructor with >5000 hrs. He has a surly demeanor and spends a lot of time in the cockpit grumbling and cursing - generally not directed at the student but at rather at some minor ATC mistake or delays outside anyone's control. I don't like this habit of his and the distraction it creates during critical phases of flight, but I've learned to put up with it and tune it out. But he's way more experienced than the average CFI, and I've figured that in the long term I'll get better training out of him despite his difficult personality.

Last weekend we were waiting for takeoff clearance for about 15 minutes while a long line of landing trainers and other aircraft hold us up. No one's fault, but he's cursing up a storm while I'm tuning him out and trying to listen to the tower and keep situational awareness. The takeoff clearance finally comes, and I'm listening carefully for the direction to turn. In the middle of the controller's instruction, the CFI hits my hand on the throttle hard without warning, knocking the throttle halfway forward and making us lurch onto the runway. There was another aircraft on final but nowhere near close enough to merit this kind of urgency- I had been watching carefully. I'm momentarily stunned and confused but am already on the runway now, and so I continue with the takeoff roll. In my distraction, I've missed the direction to turn from tower and have to ask.

I'm angry but don't say anything during the lesson- in retrospect I should have asked to end the lesson immediately rather than fly with my level of distraction. Afterwards there is another student waiting, so I refrain from discussing with him. Instead I call him the next day and ask him about it, trying to be as non-aggressive as possible and focus only on his behavior. He is defensive and does nothing to mitigate my concern. When I finally state that unless he thinks he can modify his behavior in the cockpit, I don't think that I can continue training with him. He states that he can modify his behavior. I assume he just wants me to finish under him since I'm so close to the end.

Would others consider his actions inappropriate? Should I continue with him? I'd be particularly interested to hear from any CFIs.
 
Even if his actions were appropriate (which I agree they are not), there's no point wasting time and money with an instructor whose style doesn't fit with your learning needs. He's not in a position of authority over you, he's providing a service you are paying for and it's hardly without competition. Find someone else.
 
If you can tolerate him finish up and find a CFI that doesn't have a broken personality for future training.

If you aren't close, or absolutely cannot stand it, there are plenty of us out there.
 
Of you're really close to the end (like cross countries done, instrument done, night done, working on check ride prep) suck it up and finish with him. It'll save you a good chunk of time and money.

Personally I wouldn't have trained with him in the first place.

Being a "career instructor" isn't a good thing, and it shows he has zero experience flying outside the training environment or with EXPERINCED pilots. Try those antics during a 135/121 ride and see how it goes, play those games in a 2 crew plane and you'll also get a unfavorable reaction, heck start swearing up a storm with paying pax aboard who can hear you and you'll likley be having a come to Jesus with your boss.
 
Flying is very personal, there is a reason most airlines have "don't pair these guys" functions in their scheduling systems.

Because every now and then two people just don't make a good crew.

You're the customer! Change to a different CFI!
 
JimNtexas said:
Flying is very personal, there is a reason most airlines have "don't pair these guys" functions in their scheduling systems.

Because every now and then two people just don't make a good crew.

You're the customer! Change to a different CFI!
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From what the OP said this guy sounds like a "don't pair this guy with anyone" type.
 
Good on you for confronting the CFI, it'll be interesting to find out how he behaves next time.

How close you are to the checkride has to be considered. Like Jesse said, there are plenty of good CFIs out there, but if you can stick it out that might be best. That's going to be up to you to decide. If you switch, you'll cost yourself some time and money, but that might be a tradeoff you are willing to make.

Once you get that ticket, fly for a little while on your own and enjoy the experience. Then you can talk with plenty of other CFIs to find a good match - grab him/her for an hour or so and do a flight that covers what you might normally cover on a flight review. It'll probably feel good to get a fresh start and you'll have a good CFI contact for any other time you want some company.
 
I also went through a similar situation. I tend to present myself as a professional, and my first fixed-wing CFI was a very high time pilot. He had an attitude, and cursed like a sailor. Coming from the helicopter world, we do things a little differently, and my CFI did not like the methods I used. I ended up changing schools after 10 hours of asel time.

I will say though, those first 10 hours with that high time pilot were the most beneficial to my fixed wing career. Nothing is quite like flying with an old, somehow still bold pilot in an original 65hp J3 Cub at 4,000ft field elevation on a crooked runway in the summer. Although I am still new to fixed wing aviation, and I haven't been flying much, I seem to get compliments on my coordination and decision making. I attribute some of that to my first 10 hours with my first CFI.

I remember my first flight. Once airborne I wasn't allowed to touch the throttle or stick, just the pedals at first. We spent about thirty minutes practicing "falling leaf" maneuvers. Then we spent the other thirty minutes doing "modified dutch rolls". It was a lot of fun, but the first time I cocked my head a little sideways while entering a turn, I felt five fingers slap against my headset rather hard. My instructor said in a calm demeanor, "if I ever want to enter the world of aerobatics, or be a safe IFR pilot, I better sit up and keep my head in line with my shoulders." The rest of the flight was silent, but I sat straight, didn't lean my head, and the habit has stuck. So take the good, leave the bad.
 
Unregistered,your not flying with a CFI from this forum? Are you?
 
frfly172 said:
Unregistered,your not flying with a CFI from this forum? Are you?
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Highly doubt it, but regardless I've no interest in identifying him publicly or going after him in any other way. I'm really almost done (written done, all but 0.3 of simulated instrument time done, all other requirements finished), so I think I'll try to stick it out until the check ride, as some here suggest. It will indeed be interesting to see how he acts the next time we fly- if there's any apparent retribution for my having brought a sincere concern up with him, unfortunately I'll have no choice but to change.

My perspective in staying with him initially is similar to what the helicopter pilot "unregistered" above describes. Flying is just a hobby for me, but in my professional work I have often dealt with colleagues and mentors with a high level of skill that is accompanied by an equal level of arrogance. Over time, I've learned to put up with such folks and try to get the best out them, while still setting boundaries on behavior. After having learned a great deal from a few such difficult mentors during my professional training, I wondered if my CFI might fit in the same category in the aviation world. In some ways, I think he has. My motivation for posting here was merely to see if he had crossed a boundary that I should be worried about and what I might do about it. Unlike in my job, I don't have a strong understanding of practices, professional standards, or culture in the CFI world, and so I wanted some perspective before being too hard on him.
 
Not that I doubt you, but I would like to hear the instructors side of this also.


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Want to burn your instructor? Fail your checkride a couple of times.:lol: Joking don't do that.
 
Unregistered said:
Would others consider his actions inappropriate? Should I continue with him?
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Demented, not just inappropriate. Sorry to say I agree with others that if you are really close to your ride you are better off gutting it out.

But: A guy with problems like this and who is a "career" instructor has probably given you some bad habits and omitted some important things. After you get your ticket, I'd encourage you to ask around and to fly with one or two well-respected instructors with real-world flying experience. Just tell them that you'd like an informal evaluation of your skills and knowledge and tell them why without naming names. I've flown with a lot of instructors over the years and I don't think there was a single one who didn't give me something of value. I think you'll find that to be the case as well.
 
airdale said:
Demented, not just inappropriate. Sorry to say I agree with others that if you are really close to your ride you are better off gutting it out.

But: A guy with problems like this and who is a "career" instructor has probably given you some bad habits and omitted some important things. After you get your ticket, I'd encourage you to ask around and to fly with one or two well-respected instructors with real-world flying experience. Just tell them that you'd like an informal evaluation of your skills and knowledge and tell them why without naming names. I've flown with a lot of instructors over the years and I don't think there was a single one who didn't give me something of value. I think you'll find that to be the case as well.
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Think the DPE will handle that.

If you want a real opinion go up with a working 135/137/91 pilot, demo slow flight, falling leaf stalls, short and soft field, that'll say everything right there.
 
James331 said:
Being a "career instructor" isn't a good thing, and it shows he has zero experience flying outside the training environment or with EXPERINCED pilots. Try those antics during a 135/121 ride and see how it goes, play those games in a 2 crew plane and you'll also get a unfavorable reaction, heck start swearing up a storm with paying pax aboard who can hear you and you'll likley be having a come to Jesus with your boss.
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So, Rod Machado and John King (just to name a couple most of us will know) aren't worthy instructors?? :dunno:

I know quite a few instructors who never aspired to being a professional bus driver, but are really good flight instructors.
 
LDJones said:
So, Rod Machado and John King (just to name a couple most of us will know) aren't worthy instructors?? :dunno:

I know quite a few instructors who never aspired to being a professional bus driver, but are really good flight instructors.
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They are the exception not the rule.

You notice I didn't mention 121 guys :rolleyes:

Plenty of areas of aviation where you are far from a bus driver.
 
James331 said:
Think the DPE will handle that.

If you want a real opinion go up with a working 135/137/91 pilot, demo slow flight, falling leaf stalls, short and soft field, that'll say everything right there.
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Got news for you, a working 135/137/91 pilot does not insure the guy knows how to teach, much less fly with any precision.

I've done my share of Part 135 Check Airman and Instructor evaluations and issuing certificates to Part 91 operators. To say they are somehow superior when it comes to flight instruction is a misnomer at best.
 
airdale said:
Demented, not just inappropriate. Sorry to say I agree with others that if you are really close to your ride you are better off gutting it out.

But: A guy with problems like this and who is a "career" instructor has probably given you some bad habits and omitted some important things. After you get your ticket, I'd encourage you to ask around and to fly with one or two well-respected instructors with real-world flying experience. Just tell them that you'd like an informal evaluation of your skills and knowledge and tell them why without naming names. I've flown with a lot of instructors over the years and I don't think there was a single one who didn't give me something of value. I think you'll find that to be the case as well.
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I have learned a lot from him, and the guy has an interesting and pretty tough background that I respect (avoiding detail so as not to identify). I get the feeling that it's mainly interpersonal ineptitude that has kept him from achieving his potential to become a Rod Machado-type person. I do completely agree that after my ticket a fresh perspective and independent re-evaluation from another instructor would do me a lot of good.
 
While I could in no way condone the behaviour you describe, and would express my anger over a stunt like that, I would also have to temper that with the question of " how good is the instruction I have recieved ?. ". While he may be a butthead it is possible that he has given you superb instruction in the art of flying. You will have to answer that one. But it just may be that he has given you the skills that will one day save the lives of you and your passengers. This would not excuse the bad acts but sometimes there is enough good to overlook the bad. But you can bet your a@@ that he would never pull a stunt like that with me again.
 
Hitting your hand on the throttle hard enough to make the plane lurch forward on the taxiway or runway shows an abject lack of judgment and impulse control such that I would never fly with him again. I would report it to his boss. He needs treatment before flying again. Get a new CFI. You deserve, and can easily find, a much better instructor.
 
RotorAndWing said:
Got news for you, a working 135/137/91 pilot does not insure the guy knows how to teach, much less fly with any precision.

I've done my share of Part 135 Check Airman and Instructor evaluations and issuing certificates to Part 91 operators. To say they are somehow superior when it comes to flight instruction is a misnomer at best.
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How did I know you were going to jump on that :D

Yeah yeah, there are some great 121 drivers out there, just the whole scene is quite sad now days, it's hard to find the light in any of those guys.

Much like college, many just end up there because that's what "commercial pilots" are sposed to do, doesn't seem like many have their heart in it :dunno:
 
James331 said:
How did I know you were going to jump on that :D

Yeah yeah, there are some great 121 drivers out there, just the whole scene is quite sad now days, it's hard to find the light in any of those guys.

Much like college, many just end up there because that's what "commercial pilots" are sposed to do, doesn't seem like many have their heart in it :dunno:
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Wow, 50,000+ people flying for the airlines, and none are worthy of being a flight instructor......:rolleyes:

I love the absolutes in these threads. I guess I could make a statement such as "yea yeah, there are some great PC12 drivers out there, just the whole scene is quite sad now days, it's hard to find the light in any of those guys".

Would that be appropriate? :rolleyes:
 
RotorAndWing said:
Wow, 50,000+ people flying for the airlines, and none are worthy of being a flight instructor......:rolleyes:

I love the absolutes in these threads. I guess I could make a statement such as "yea yeah, there are some great PC12 drivers out there, just the whole scene is quite sad now days, it's hard to find the light in any of those guys".

Would that be appropriate? :rolleyes:
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I would wager the average PC12 driver is probably happier than the average airline guy :wink2:
 
Why does any person feel the need to inject curse words in normal conversation? I do not put up with it. I will treat you with respect and I demand the same in return.

I did not even put up with it from drill instructors in basic training.
 
Zeldman said:
Why does any person feel the need to inject curse words in normal conversation? I do not put up with it. I will treat you with respect and I demand the same in return.

I did not even put up with it from drill instructors in basic training.
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So, how did you handle that? :rolleyes:
 
Zeldman said:
Why does any person feel the need to inject curse words in normal conversation? I do not put up with it. I will treat you with respect and I demand the same in return.

I did not even put up with it from drill instructors in basic training.
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WTF we can't swear on the internet now?:wink2::D
 
flyingron said:
Even if his actions were appropriate (which I agree they are not), there's no point wasting time and money with an instructor whose style doesn't fit with your learning needs. He's not in a position of authority over you, he's providing a service you are paying for and it's hardly without competition. Find someone else.
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:yeahthat:
 
To the OP, FWIW I had to change my CFI on the eve of the checkride, because he had to take personal time off to deal with a family emergency. He recommended another experienced instructor to guide me through checkride prep, and I nary lost a step in the process. I may even argue that it was beneficial, because I got a different perspective on everything from preflighting the plane to how to do a diversion.

If you feel you have to make a change, then do it. Don't gut it out for the wrong reason.
 
RotorAndWing said:
Yea, I mean, ya know, how can some guy that flies 121 know anything about flight instructing...:rolleyes:
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Amazing how often I get that. 40+ years flying, 30+ Flying 121/135, a few thousand instructing, check airman, IP and some how flying jets I lost the ability to teach! I had a newish CFI point out to his student (right in front of me) that airline pilots wouldn't be good instructors because they've forgotten how to fly. I just shook my head, climbed back into the Supercub with my student and left. I've even had a DPE say, "My god! You fly Airbus' and still instruct? I hope you don't teach primary!" :rolleyes:
 
Zeldman said:
Never in the military, eh? :)

As everyone knows in the military there are two ways to get things done. The official military way or the non-official efficient way.

I chose the efficient way.
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Yes, I was in the military.

You forgot to start your story with "This is no **** guys"........:rolleyes:
 
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