Complex and High Performance Endorsements

Ventucky Red

Ventucky Red

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Jon
I am about to embark on completeing these two endorsements... and possible my commercial rating shortly there after...

Any advice from those that have done this... that is; what was the one habit you had to break when making this transition...

Should be fun... and thanks
 
Might as well do them both at once. I did mine in a Debonair. There is no one "habit" to break, you just need to learn new systems and procedures. It isn't a big deal.
 
well.....if you've forgotten.....you'll remember your right foot....and to check the gear 50 times before landing. :)
 
For me, not break, but add.

GUMPSS many times. Initial brief, initial fix/enter pattern, Intermediate fix/abeam numbers, Final Fix/Base to Final, Runway Made/Committing to Land.
 
The ratings are fun,so long as you remember the gear. You won't have the tendency to forget the gear untill you get complacent. Start using the checklist,especially before landing.
 
Bad habits, not really, really learning to master using MP and RPM for climbs and descents and transition to cruise is the biggest part, also at this stage you should know your way around a engine analyzer.

The gear isn't a big deal, just do your flows and follow up with a shirt and simple check list, once you are low and in a landing sight profile do another quick GUMPS check.

The extra power isn't much of a big deal, most of the over 200hp planes are larger so, for the most part, it's all proportionate.
 
I'm thinking about it too, Red. I'm wondering if it makes any sense to do HP/Comp in a Lance or just Complex in an Arrow. Arrow is obviously much cheaper though.
 
Ventucky Red said:
I am about to embark on completeing these two endorsements... and possible my commercial rating shortly there after...

Any advice from those that have done this... that is; what was the one habit you had to break when making this transition...

Should be fun... and thanks
Click to expand...

If you're not used to using rudder trim for take off and climb, you may fail to take advantage.
 
eman1200 said:
I'm thinking about it too, Red. I'm wondering if it makes any sense to do HP/Comp in a Lance or just Complex in an Arrow. Arrow is obviously much cheaper though.
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You didn't post prices, but I'd wager it would be less to do all of it at once in a more expensive plane, compared to two separate endorsements in two different lower priced planes.
 
Problem I have is they have a 10 hour min "for insurance purposes", which means the rating will get expensive.
 
IS there a flight school in the Houston area that has a suitable aircraft to knock out both at once? I've been wanting to get these as well, but the place I've used has an Arrow for Complex, and a 182 for the HP.
 
High Performance is easy. The larger engine is almost always coupled with a larger airframe, making the effect of the left turning tendencies similar in comparison to a lower HP aircraft. Keep the ball centered.

Complex is not as easy. I highly suggest armchair flying in the airplane when it's available on the ramp. Your flow, scan, and engine management will be the biggest differences. An in-depth knowledge of the gear and prop systems is critical. A monkey can move a gear switch and prop lever.
 
eman1200 said:
Problem I have is they have a 10 hour min "for insurance purposes", which means the rating will get expensive.
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It works the same for tha 10hr requirement. It really depends why you are getting the endorsements. Are you gaining endorsements, or are you checking out in the plane for frequent future use?

If it's use, choose the plane you will use. Also ask this if the the Lance and Arrow are at the same place, "Will the checkout in the Lance cover me for the Arrow as well?" If you have any PA-28 time, the answer is often "Yes" due to all the similarities across the PA-28 and PA-32 lines. Now you are covered for both by checking out first in the more expensive one. A lot of places would also apply it to their Cessna line. If I checked out in the 182 or 172RG, that made available all the 172s and 152s as well.

I always look to do my rental check outs in the plane that gives me access to the most planes.
 
One "bad habit" you may have in small engines, is chopping the power, or slamming the throttle in for power.
This can be damaging in larger engines. Learn smooth throttle movements, fore and aft.
 
nosehair said:
One "bad habit" you may have in small engines, is chopping the power, or slamming the throttle in for power.
This can be damaging in larger engines. Learn smooth throttle movements, fore and aft.
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Not a bad habit for little engines either. It's rapid changes that's tough on things.
 
ok I just spoke to the owner, I think we came up with a good plan (sorry for the thread hijack). their insurance requirement for solo flight is 10 hour of complex time. since, like henning said, I won't rent the lance all that often, but will rent the arrow, the plan is to do about 8 hours complex time in the archer then the last 2 in the lance. that satisfies the 10hr complex time plus a coupl'a hours for HP/lance checkout. boom.
 
Didn't have to break any habits when moving from simple FG to complex HP (basically, Cessna 150 to T-34B ), just develop some additional procedures, which the US Navy drilled into us pretty well before letting us go up in their airplanes.
 
eman1200 said:
ok I just spoke to the owner, I think we came up with a good plan (sorry for the thread hijack). their insurance requirement for solo flight is 10 hour of complex time. since, like henning said, I won't rent the lance all that often, but will rent the arrow, the plan is to do about 8 hours complex time in the archer then the last 2 in the lance. that satisfies the 10hr complex time plus a coupl'a hours for HP/lance checkout. boom.
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There you go. It's all about getting the most bang for your buck. Now you will have the Lance available to you when you want the bigger, faster, plane a couple times a year, or when someone else has the Arrow.

The good thing about being checked out in the most expensive plane in the fleet is it's typically available.
 
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nosehair said:
One "bad habit" you may have in small engines, is chopping the power, or slamming the throttle in for power.
This can be damaging in larger engines. Learn smooth throttle movements, fore and aft.
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Being ham fisted isn't good on anything, keep it smooth.

One one thousand, two one thousand.

I taught that for throttle work in a lil 108hp AA1, stays true for everything from a lawn mower all the way to a R985 and turbines.

Same deal with cowl flaps and flaps, don't need to "milk" them out, but don't slam them up and down.

OH yeah! Cow flaps, that's going to be another thing to learn, just use them to keep target CHTs, for the most part ground and climb they are full open, low power or fast decents they are closed, cruise whatever gives you your target CHTs, the owner should have numbers for max climb and cruse (not just the max in the POH).
 
Henning said:
Exactly. Figure you get both in the Lance in an hour, vs an Arrow for an hour and a 182 for an hour.
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Speaking as an instructor who's conducted this training, I don't see much likelihood at all of anyone with zero prior retractable or HP experience getting both endorsements in only one hour of flight training unless the instructor trades endorsements for cash. If my signature is going in the logbook, I'm going to have to be pretty well convinced this person isn't going to do a gear-up landing any time in the foreseeable future, and it will take a good bit more than a couple of trips around the pattern to convince me of that. The insurance companies have plenty of statistics to back up their refusal to insure folks in a retractable with less than something like five hours of dual, and I see no good reason why I should accept this risk with only one-fifth of the training time that they will.
 
eman1200 said:
ok I just spoke to the owner, I think we came up with a good plan (sorry for the thread hijack). their insurance requirement for solo flight is 10 hour of complex time. since, like henning said, I won't rent the lance all that often, but will rent the arrow, the plan is to do about 8 hours complex time in the archer then the last 2 in the lance. that satisfies the 10hr complex time plus a coupl'a hours for HP/lance checkout. boom.
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Based on my experience giving training in both, that sounds like a pretty good plan, although I might think that 7/3 or 6/4 might be a bit more appropriate -- that Lance is going to feel like nothing you've ever flown before, especially if it's a T-tail.
 
James331 said:
OH yeah! Cow flaps, that's going to be another thing to learn
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Not in an Arrow or Lance -- they don't have them. Or did you really mean "cow flaps", as in some sort of device to keep cows away if you have to land in a farmer's field? ;)
 
Ron Levy said:
Based on my experience giving training in both, that sounds like a pretty good plan, although I might think that 7/3 or 6/4 might be a bit more appropriate -- that Lance is going to feel like nothing you've ever flown before, especially if it's a T-tail.
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it IS a t-tail, and we did discuss 7/3, I just didn't feel like going into that much detail when I posted that lol.
 
eman1200 said:
it IS a t-tail, and we did discuss 7/3, I just didn't feel like going into that much detail when I posted that lol.
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Good luck. I've got a few dozen hours in T-tail Lances, and I still can't land them smoothly. Even the takeoffs tend to be a bit abrupt. If their instructors have some tips on that, I'd love to hear them.
 
Ron Levy said:
Good luck. I've got a few dozen hours in T-tail Lances, and I still can't land them smoothly. Even the takeoffs tend to be a bit abrupt. If their instructors have some tips on that, I'd love to hear them.
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I'm not even sure if this is worth 2 cents, but I've heard to approach 5kts faster than normal to help smooth everything out. I believe the abrupt rotation is just the nature of the beast.

I've also heard it flies like a truck.
 
Ron Levy said:
Speaking as an instructor who's conducted this training, I don't see much likelihood at all of anyone with zero prior retractable or HP experience getting both endorsements in only one hour of flight training unless the instructor trades endorsements for cash. If my signature is going in the logbook, I'm going to have to be pretty well convinced this person isn't going to do a gear-up landing any time in the foreseeable future, and it will take a good bit more than a couple of trips around the pattern to convince me of that. The insurance companies have plenty of statistics to back up their refusal to insure folks in a retractable with less than something like five hours of dual, and I see no good reason why I should accept this risk with only one-fifth of the training time that they will.
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:dunno: I got both of them, 1 each, during cross countries of my private. True, they took more than an hour, but the 182 wasn't much longer., and I got some stuff moved off the island at the same time.:lol: I saved money on the Cutlass since it made a 3.5hr XC into a 2 hr one and with the comparative rate I came out ahead. I had the endorsement logged at the end of each flight. I don't know what all you teach about it in flight, most everything I learned about both was on the ground, and I knew the systems better than the CFI since I worked on them. In flight there's 5 minutes of material to cover and then you have another 55 minutes to go into detail. How much longer can it be stretched out for?
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
I'm not even sure if this is worth 2 cents, but I've heard to approach 5kts faster than normal to help smooth everything out. I believe the abrupt rotation is just the nature of the beast.
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Perhaps, but landing fast creates other problems I'd like to avoid.

I've also heard it flies like a truck.
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You heard right.
 
Henning said:
:dunno: I got both of them, 1 each, during cross countries of my private. True, they took more than an hour, but the 182 wasn't much longer., and I got some stuff moved off the island at the same time.:lol: I saved money on the Cutlass since it made a 3.5hr XC into a 2 hr one and with the comparative rate I came out ahead. I had the endorsement logged at the end of each flight.
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So I gather you had about five hours training to get both (which is about where I would think it should be), not the one hour you suggested earlier. But if all you did in the way of complex work was two or three landings, that endorsement was a gift.

I don't know what all you teach about it in flight, most everything I learned about both was on the ground, and I knew the systems better than the CFI since I worked on them.
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Right. Perhaps some day you'll get your CFI ticket and then you'll understand from the instructor's end.
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
I'm not even sure if this is worth 2 cents, but I've heard to approach 5kts faster than normal to help smooth everything out. I believe the abrupt rotation is just the nature of the beast.

I've also heard it flies like a truck.
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Trim, trim, trim. Does it take a bit more strength to get the same reaction? Yes. It does not take more speed though, that is a bad crutch and is what earns it the name of runway hog, because it's not particularly if you fly it right. Don't be afraid to use some muscle to tell it what to do. If you pull that yoke to your gut, that nose is coming up. Don't take no for an answer.
 
I did about five hours in a Deb for complex and hp endorsements, which included lots of T&G's and some mountain flying. When I bought my Turbo Arrow, I had a five hour minimum dual instruction insurance requirement and that was just one big mountain training session with lots of landings at airports and a couple airstrips in the Sierras.
 
Ron Levy said:
Not in an Arrow or Lance -- they don't have them. Or did you really mean "cow flaps", as in some sort of device to keep cows away if you have to land in a farmer's field? ;)
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Lol, yeah cow flaps, helps with all the cow ...emissions


Don't approach faster than book, heck of you're not at full gross the book speeds are too fast.
 
Ron Levy said:
So I gather you had about five hours training to get both (which is about where I would think it should be), not the one hour you suggested earlier. But if all you did in the way of complex work was two or three landings, that endorsement was a gift.

Right. Perhaps some day you'll get your CFI ticket and then you'll understand from the instructor's end.
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No, I had about 20 minutes of complex or HP specific training, and 4:40 of Cross Country, Night, and Hood training with landings that served double duty. There's just not that much to learn in flight, you should understand it all before you get in the plane. If the insurance requires 5 hrs, sure, teach it in the plane, plenty of time.
 
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Meh, I'd want more then 5hrs complex time before I trusted someone to fly my plane.

It's not that complicated, but it's more then 20min of instruction to get the average 172 pilot smooth with MP/RPM and gear, especially if you have cowl flaps or a engine that shouldn't be fire walled for T/O or climb.
 
James331 said:
Meh, I'd want more then 5hrs complex time before I trusted someone to fly my plane.

It's not that complicated, but it's more then 20min of instruction to get the average 172 pilot smooth with MP/RPM and gear, especially if you have cowl flaps or a engine that shouldn't be fire walled for T/O or climb.
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Most rental outfits only care about what the insurance requires.
 
Ron Levy said:
Speaking as an instructor who's conducted this training, I don't see much likelihood at all of anyone with zero prior retractable or HP experience getting both endorsements in only one hour of flight training unless the instructor trades endorsements for cash. If my signature is going in the logbook, I'm going to have to be pretty well convinced this person isn't going to do a gear-up landing any time in the foreseeable future, and it will take a good bit more than a couple of trips around the pattern to convince me of that. The insurance companies have plenty of statistics to back up their refusal to insure folks in a retractable with less than something like five hours of dual, and I see no good reason why I should accept this risk with only one-fifth of the training time that they will.
Click to expand...

The CFII that I am using for this told me to plan for about 10 hours maybe a little more or a little less.. Tells me from what he has seen of my past flying he doesn't think we'll hit that threshold.

Would be nice to take a couple of days during the week and knock this out.. now there is an idea..


Anyway, thank all for the hints... I'll let you know how it works out..

John
 
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Ron Levy said:
Good luck. I've got a few dozen hours in T-tail Lances, and I still can't land them smoothly. Even the takeoffs tend to be a bit abrupt. If their instructors have some tips on that, I'd love to hear them.
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Hmmmmm wondering if doing my primary in some of the first Tomahawks out there is going to give me a leg up here?

Use the do wheelies down the runway with touch and gos' :rofl::goofy:
 
Ron Levy said:
Not in an Arrow or Lance -- they don't have them. Or did you really mean "cow flaps", as in some sort of device to keep cows away if you have to land in a farmer's field? ;)
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By the way my Turbo Arrow did have cowl flaps - it was part of the STC mod for the intercooler.
 
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