Complex and High Performance Endorsements

[Henning]

Hmmmmm wondering if doing my primary in some of the first Tomahawks out there is going to give me a leg up here?

Use the do wheelies down the runway with touch and gos'

It's the exact same thing, same as the Seminole as well, when making low speed pitch changes, you need to use enough force to comand it to do what you want.

The only difference I find in the T-Tail vs the low Tail with the same wing is that the time between the nose wheel coming off the ground and the wheels coming off the ground is shorter, and I need more muscle at low speed regardless of trim because I don't get the advantage of prop wash on the tail. I do not find there a difference between the T/O distance overall though.

They do require more muscling to fly off and on the runway well, that I will grant, but with correct use of trim (lots of people ignore T/O trim and just set for climb trim, then complain about having to muscle the nose up, well duh.) they are still quite manageable by anyone with normal general strength.

 

[Henning]

The advantage to a T-Tail is your pitch changes with power are much smoother and follow aircraft speed without having the gust factor of the prop to create a transient oscillation. This increases your finess to change your rate of desent with the throttle on short final.

 

[Ventucky Red]

The only difference I find in the T-Tail vs the low Tail with the same wing is that the time between the nose wheel coming off the ground and the wheels coming off the ground is shorter, and I need more muscle at low speed regardless of trim because I don't get the advantage of prop wash on the tail. I do not find there a difference between the T/O distance overall though.

They do require more muscling to fly off and on the runway well, that I will grant, but with correct use of trim (lots of people ignore T/O trim and just set for climb trim, then complain about having to muscle the nose up, well duh.) they are still quite manageable by anyone with normal general strength.

Yeupp, I was taught to look at the tail and set the trim, then give it just a little back-pressure on the yoke when applying power for take off and the plane just flew it self off the runway..

As for landing it did require a little more input for the flair than the Warriors.

I always say I was fortunate to have leaned in that plane.. sad that Piper cut corners on the construction.

 

[James331]

Hmmmmm wondering if doing my primary in some of the first Tomahawks out there is going to give me a leg up here?

Use the do wheelies down the runway with touch and gos'

If it's anything like a Grumman it will help quite a bit.

 

[Gucci Pilot]

...I don't know what all you teach about it in flight, most everything I learned about both was on the ground, and I knew the systems better than the CFI since I worked on them. In flight there's 5 minutes of material to cover and then you have another 55 minutes to go into detail. How much longer can it be stretched out for?

That was my take on it. We spent a good amount of time talking about C/S props, MP & RPM(what I thought was the most complicated). Talked about techniques/procedures for throttle/prop combinations, cowl flaps, then went up for an hour for both endorsements. Most of my learning was done on the ground and then did the flights to tie everything together. Did my complex in the 172RG and the HP in a 172 XP so not much change between airframes

 

[FlyingIsGood]

IS there a flight school in the Houston area that has a suitable aircraft to knock out both at once? I've been wanting to get these as well, but the place I've used has an Arrow for Complex, and a 182 for the HP.

West Houston (KIWS) has a F33C Bonanza - but it's $360hr/dual.

 

[calereeves]

I've got my FAA practical tomorrow---so assuming it goes well, I want to move on to the same next steps. My flight school has a Seneca II, and considering I'd like to get HP, complex, and MEL, it seems most cost effective to move on to the Seneca next and knock them all out at once. Any issues with doing that?

 

[James331]

I've got my FAA practical tomorrow---so assuming it goes well, I want to move on to the same next steps. My flight school has a Seneca II, and considering I'd like to get HP, complex, and MEL, it seems most cost effective to move on to the Seneca next and knock them all out at once. Any issues with doing that?

Nope, that'll work fine.

 

[Henning]

I've got my FAA practical tomorrow---so assuming it goes well, I want to move on to the same next steps. My flight school has a Seneca II, and considering I'd like to get HP, complex, and MEL, it seems most cost effective to move on to the Seneca next and knock them all out at once. Any issues with doing that?

That works well, the Seneca II is a good first twin to move into. A good mix of docile and capable. I bought a turbo Travelair right after I got my Private.

 

[jordane93]

Make sure to study the POH especially the landing gear and constant speed prop and have good understanding of both and do the GUMPS check 50 times and then 50 more times.

 

[poadeleted20]

No, I had about 20 minutes of complex or HP specific training, and 4:40 of Cross Country, Night, and Hood training with landings that served double duty.

So you did have five hours of training in complex/HP aircraft before that endorsement was entered in your logbook. Thanks.

 

[poadeleted20]

By the way my Turbo Arrow did have cowl flaps - it was part of the STC mod for the intercooler.

So it didn't leave the factory with cowl flaps, right? That's what I thought. Heck, I could come up with a mod to put cowl flaps on my Tiger if I wanted, but that doesn't change the fact that neither Tigers nor Arrows have cowl flaps when the aircraft is in its type certificate condition.

 

[poadeleted20]

If it's anything like a Grumman it will help quite a bit.

Trust me -- be good with a Grumman won't help you with a T-Tail Lance. BTDT, and it wasn't pretty.

 

[poadeleted20]

I've got my FAA practical tomorrow---so assuming it goes well, I want to move on to the same next steps. My flight school has a Seneca II, and considering I'd like to get HP, complex, and MEL, it seems most cost effective to move on to the Seneca next and knock them all out at once. Any issues with doing that?

None as it's a Seneca II or later -- Seneca I's aren't high performance. Just make sure your instructor puts those 61.31 HP and complex endorsements in your logbook before you show up for the ME practical test.

 

[Sac Arrow]

So it didn't leave the factory with cowl flaps, right? That's what I thought. Heck, I could come up with a mod to put cowl flaps on my Tiger if I wanted, but that doesn't change the fact that neither Tigers nor Arrows have cowl flaps when the aircraft is in its type certificate condition.

Correct, I just interjected that as an aside.

 

[Henning]

So you did have five hours of training in complex/HP aircraft before that endorsement was entered in your logbook. Thanks.

No, I had an 1.5hr flight at the end of that got my HP and 2hr flight at the end of which I was signed off for Complex. Not only that, I was also checked out for further rental. So 3.5 total flying for both. In that time, 20 minutes was spent on dealing with the equipment. "Here, this is what you learned and how it functions." 99% of Complex and HP is theory and systems, not flying. If you don't have them prepared before you get in the plane then yeah, I can see it taking you 5 hours to teach it in the plane.

 

[poadeleted20]

No, I had an 1.5hr flight at the end of that got my HP and 2hr flight at the end of which I was signed off for Complex. Not only that, I was also checked out for further rental. So 3.5 total flying for both. In that time, 20 minutes was spent on dealing with the equipment. "Here, this is what you learned and how it functions." 99% of Complex and HP is theory and systems, not flying. If you don't have them prepared before you get in the plane then yeah, I can see it taking you 5 hours to teach it in the plane.

So now 20 minutes plus 4 hours 40 minutes is 3.5 hours? I give up. You're magic, Henning -- but if you ever get your CFI, don't expect the same from your trainees.

 

[PPC1052]

what was the one habit you had to break when making this transition...

My guess would be breaking the habit of not putting down the gear.

 

[Henning]

So now 20 minutes plus 4 hours 40 minutes is 3.5 hours? I give up. You're magic, Henning -- but if you ever get your CFI, don't expect the same from your trainees.

What are you teaching them that takes 5 hours flying?please...