Complaint of the Week

Jaybird180

Jaybird180

Final Approach
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Jaybird180
I was thinking that we should start a thread where we nominate our top complaints of the week that we'd like to see fixed systemically in the aviation system and all of us write our congress critter, the FAA and anybody else to get attention on it.

From what I see posted here, we have no real effective grassroots lobby group that truly represents our interests. Maybe we can create one?
 
Sounds like a good idea,start a poll on how many on the board would participate. That requires some action rather than just reading posts.
 
Let's see where this thread goes first , then proceed from there
 
Can you give us an example? I haven't thought about this much or maybe at all. I lurk here and I only fly a couple hours a month. A start would help.
 
It's been two weeks since I've seen my bag. UA didn't load it on the SEA to SFO leg, LH lost it after trying to get it to me in Prague. Good enough complaint to start the week? :D
 
TSA/DHS requiring fences around airports

More generally, "security measures" that don't provide any actual improvement in security. An example would be the gate at KBED that could only be activated if you drove up in a car (apparently pedestrians, bicyclists, and small motorcycles have to be kept out).
 
Bob Noel said:
TSA/DHS requiring fences around airports

More generally, "security measures" that don't provide any actual improvement in security. An example would be the gate at KBED that could only be activated if you drove up in a car (apparently pedestrians, bicyclists, and small motorcycles have to be kept out).
Click to expand...

If you can't figure out the code to 99% of airport gate locks you don't know the tower, ground, or departure frequency.
 
Mike5250 said:
If you can't figure out the code to 99% of airport gate locks you don't know the tower, ground, or departure frequency.
Click to expand...

Huh? Was this meant to be a dig? Doesn't seem relevant to the post you replied to.
 
Bob Noel said:
TSA/DHS requiring fences around airports

More generally, "security measures" that don't provide any actual improvement in security. An example would be the gate at KBED that could only be activated if you drove up in a car (apparently pedestrians, bicyclists, and small motorcycles have to be kept out).
Click to expand...

That's a risk v reward argument and the deciding resolution come down to subjectivity. Not likely a good candidate but I agree with the thought behind it - something that affects us all and we disagree with the way things are currently done.
 
Mike5250 said:
If you can't figure out the code to 99% of airport gate locks you don't know the tower, ground, or departure frequency.
Click to expand...

Well, that might be clever but it wasn't a keypad, it was a prox badge, and it wouldn't activate without the magnetic field of a large amount of metal (e.g., a car).
 
Jaybird180 said:
That's a risk v reward argument and the deciding resolution come down to subjectivity. Not likely a good candidate but I agree with the thought behind it - something that affects us all and we disagree with the way things are currently done.
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And that's one of the problems... people who don't understand security. Security is not a matter of subjectivity.
 
Bob Noel said:
And that's one of the problems... people who don't understand security. Security is not a matter of subjectivity.
Click to expand...

Incorrect. Security isn't an absolute either. You have to have clear goals and work within your constraints to achieve them. Although incremental, it is a fallacious argument to say that fences add ZERO value to security. I personally think the value is not worth the inconvenience for legitimate users in many cases. But they do have some value. Is the value >= the cost? Dunno, that's subjective.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Incorrect. Security isn't an absolute either. You have to have clear goals and work within your constraints to achieve them. Although incremental, it is a fallacious argument to say that fences add ZERO value to security. I personally think the value is not worth the inconvenience for legitimate users in many cases. But they do have some value. Is the value >= the cost? Dunno, that's subjective.
Click to expand...

ok, so explain to me what value there is to a fence from a security POV?
 
Bob Noel said:
ok, so explain to me what value there is to a fence from a security POV?
Click to expand...


I agree with the fence. There is plenty of value. It's called "CPTED" or CEPTED spoken. It stands for CRIME PREVENTION THROUGH ENVIRONMENTAL DESIGN and is an integral part of many security solutions. Here's the thing: the fence isn't keeping out anyone who really wants to get in. Nothing really will with the right amount of determination. It discourages them because not only is it more difficult to get in for what probably will be a low paycheck in the end, it makes it more difficult to get back out should they be confronted by someone like me and decide to flee. It also helps keep larger equipment on the field vs being driven off the field by the would be thief. It also communicates to the general public that it is not a free entry area and that they shouldn't be there if they don't have a valid reason. Do you really want someone who has no knowledge of airport operations, signs and markings, or aircraft, blindly driving onto the field in their car so that they can come around the side of a hangar and into the front of your airplane while you are taxiing? Its happened.

Again, I agree, that anyone who has a good reason to be there will know how to get in, be it a field freq used as the code or a lockbox with a key in it. If someone hasn't been taught that by someone or told how to do it when they asked the airport staff, then in MOST cases, they don't have a great reason to be on that part of the field.

Just my opinion.


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And, most of the time, yes, the security measures are an inconvenience for legit users. But, that is part of the protection provided for your investment, and, again, if it's inconvenient enough that it bothers you, it also bothers the criminals.


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AT AEG, the fence is there primarily to keep the coyotes and bears out.
Doesn't do a good job, but it looks good
 
People who are <> me.

And NOTAMs.

All else is just kick-ass.


:D
 
So I came by the airport about 8pm one evening, a plane had just landed and the gate was inop. There was no contact information readily available, they were preparing throw grandma over the fence to get out, when I showed up. Fortunately I had a key to another gate.

Landed my glider at the airport at 8pm, no-one on the field, my crew and trailer following along behind shows up, we get to look at each other through the gate but have no idea how to get my glider to the trailer or my trailer to the glider? There is a phone number posted but no-one answers...

Brian

Oh the other one, installed the new gate at the airport, plane crashes, no-one bothered to tell the fire-department how to access the gate.
 
SPAJC said:
It discourages them because not only is it more difficult to get in for what probably will be a low paycheck in the end, it makes it more difficult to get back out should they be confronted by someone like me and decide to flee. It also helps keep larger equipment on the field vs being driven off the field by the would be thief.
Click to expand...


Difficult to get in? A pair of bolt cutters and two minutes and you'll have a hole enough to drive a car through.

Difficult to get back out? Never seen an airport where the gate didn't open automatically for exit if approached from the inside, or didn't have an exit button on a standpipe.

Flee: You'd be left in the dust by an token smart enough to run a set of bolt cutters. Don't kid yourself.

Larger equipment: See automated gates.

Maybe at your airport the gates won't open outward but that isn't the norm. Which made me LOL at most of that post.

I just copied out the funniest parts.
 
SPAJC said:
And, most of the time, yes, the security measures are an inconvenience for legit users. But, that is part of the protection provided for your investment, and, again, if it's inconvenient enough that it bothers you, it also bothers the criminals.


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Click to expand...


No, it really doesn't bother the criminals.

It gives the bureaucracy that erected it air cover when the criminals finally hit.

"But but but we out up a FENCE! What more would you have had us do? It's 'best practices' don't you know?"

Probably because their insurer won't allow snipers with night vision gear. Too much liability. Haha.
 
Do you bother locking the doors to your house or your car? If someone wanted to break in badly enough they would. Same with airport fences. They add a small deterrent.
 
Everskyward said:
Do you bother locking the doors to your house or your car? If someone wanted to break in badly enough they would. Same with airport fences. They add a small deterrent.
Click to expand...


Yes, but I don't fool myself and call either one a deterrent. Have had three vehicle break ins over my lifespan, and none on the house yet, but there are actual deterrents there, that aren't five dollar lock that can be bumped.

(Not to mention, most houses have windows and who'd bother going through a door? And who here hasn't had to break into their own car or house at least once in their lifetime? You learn quickly that it's a five minute job.)

The airport fence is a deterrent to one thing at airports: People interested in flying who want to visit and watch and maybe meet a pilot.

It's not "security". Neither is the crappy lock on most hangars and definitely not a typical airplane key.

Cessnas are "great". Only need a very small number of keys on a ring to open any Cessna. ;)

I know of at least three ways to bypass the gates at our home 'drome without even raising an eyebrow. Don't you?
 
denverpilot said:
Yes, but I don't fool myself and call either one a deterrent. Have had three vehicle break ins over my lifespan, and none on the house yet, but there are actual deterrents there, that aren't five dollar lock that can be bumped.

(Not to mention, most houses have windows and who'd bother going through a door? And who here hasn't had to break into their own car or house at least once in their lifetime? You learn quickly that it's a five minute job.)

The airport fence is a deterrent to one thing at airports: People interested in flying who want to visit and watch and maybe meet a pilot.

It's not "security". Neither is the crappy lock on most hangars and definitely not a typical airplane key.

Cessnas are "great". Only need a very small number of keys on a ring to open any Cessna. ;)

I know of at least three ways to bypass the gates at our home 'drome without even raising an eyebrow. Don't you?
Click to expand...
Besides going through our hangars or the FBOs no. But I haven't looked for other ways.

If you read my post you'll see that I wrote...

If someone wanted to break in badly enough they would.
Click to expand...

But I usually lock the doors to my house and car when I am not it it. I also have not had a break-in to either one even though I can be careless at times. Knock on wood.
 
Everskyward said:
Besides going through our hangars or the FBOs no. But I haven't looked for other ways.



If you read my post you'll see that I wrote...







But I usually lock the doors to my house and car when I am not it it. I also have not had a break-in to either one even though I can be careless at times. Knock on wood.
Click to expand...


I guess you're missing my point. They don't have to want it very badly. Car windows pop with amazing ease and front doors often have windows right next to them. Nothing all that difficult.

As far as the ways onto the ramp go, I obviously won't post them here because someone would be butthurt that I "compromised security". When in fact, our well fenced and gated ramp has absolutely no real security at all.

They do have cameras, but wander up to Ops sometime (do you guys have to go there to renew your badges or do you guys even have badges, since you come out through your hangar?) and count how many times anyone looks at the monitors and see where they're located, ergonomically, and where their eyeballs are most of the time. Heh.

And there's a way to tell almost for sure when no one is looking at the monitors, but I won't go into that. :)
 
denverpilot said:
I guess you're missing my point.
Click to expand...
I think you're missing my point. I never claimed locks or fences would keep everyone out but I think they discourage people looking for easy mischief. You would notice someone breaking a window in a parking lot. You would not notice someone simply opening the door.

As far as the airport goes, as I'm sure you know, it's not a SIDA airport even though it is busier than many which are. We have internal badges but nothing created by the airport.
 
Everskyward said:
I think you're missing my point. I never claimed locks or fences would keep everyone out but I think they discourage people looking for easy mischief. You would notice someone breaking a window in a parking lot. You would not notice someone simply opening the door.



As far as the airport goes, as I'm sure you know, it's not a SIDA airport even though it is busier than many which are. We have internal badges but nothing created by the airport.
Click to expand...


So were the fences put up out of a need to stop a plethora of "mischief" makers or were they purchased under the auspices of a different specific purpose?

If they get a "B+" or an "A" for stopping mischief then they must get a good grade for real crime, right? Heh. Nope. "F". Maybe a "D-" if grading on a curve. :)

Or are you saying the really expensive fences with cameras and electric gates and proximity card readers and all that, deserve one of those nifty new school "participation awards"? ;)

Have to grade them on the complete job role not just as a mild general deterrent. I think the only way that fence could stop you, really stop you, would be if you were so drunk you couldn't speak coherently. :)
 
denverpilot said:
So were the fences put up out of a need to stop a plethora of "mischief" makers or were they purchased under the auspices of a different specific purpose?

If they get a "B+" or an "A" for stopping mischief then they must get a good grade for real crime, right? Heh. Nope. "F". Maybe a "D-" if grading on a curve. :)

Or are you saying the really expensive fences with cameras and electric gates and proximity card readers and all that, deserve one of those nifty new school "participation awards"? ;)

Have to grade them on the complete job role not just as a mild general deterrent. I think the only way that fence could stop you, really stop you, would be if you were so drunk you couldn't speak coherently. :)
Click to expand...
Frankly, I think they are only a mild deterrent but that is what everything security-wise ends up being unless it is a fortress. I get the feeling that you would like either nothing or something impenetrable. I am fine with the in-between both in my personal life and around the airport.
 
denverpilot said:
Difficult to get in? A pair of bolt cutters and two minutes and you'll have a hole enough to drive a car through.

Difficult to get back out? Never seen an airport where the gate didn't open automatically for exit if approached from the inside, or didn't have an exit button on a standpipe.

Flee: You'd be left in the dust by an token smart enough to run a set of bolt cutters. Don't kid yourself.

Larger equipment: See automated gates.

Maybe at your airport the gates won't open outward but that isn't the norm. Which made me LOL at most of that post.

I just copied out the funniest parts.
Click to expand...


I didn't say it was a perfect system or that it would work as intended even 50% of the time. Just that it is intended to be a deterrent. Most of that post was more tailored to criminals on foot because they couldn't open the gate. Just to support your point, ours has two walk-through gates that are not secured. But most people i've seen, have trouble figuring that out.

Our gate does open automatically from inside by car. But i'd like to see you drive some of the equipment we have through it when it opens. Run over the fence maybe....

Anyways, I wasn't trying to say that it works well. Just why they do it. If I trusted that it worked well, I wouldn't feel the need to patrol it as much as I do.

And yes, I have caught people inside the fence during early morning hours...on-foot..for no good reason other than looking inside airplanes that don't belong to them and they have no business looking at. We've also had various pieces of avionics equipment stolen, tools, etc.... So I definitely think the fence has it's purpose and place and I also think that it HELPS....not works...HELPS...people will always be able to outsmart or circumvent the security. Or, figure out that they can just walk right in.

So don't kid yourself...when your s!@t gets stolen, you'll be p'd that the security wasn't in place to at least TRY to secure your investment.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Everskyward said:
Frankly, I think they are only a mild deterrent but that is what everything security-wise ends up being unless it is a fortress. I get the feeling that you would like either nothing or something impenetrable. I am fine with the in-between both in my personal life and around the airport.
Click to expand...


I'm cool with nothing. It'd make the value of the hangar go up. LOL.

No seriously, tons of airports with nothing and they get by just fine. Many even have public viewing areas.

God forbid anyone know the Broncos flew some football player into Dove Valley... LOL.
 
KA550 said:
People who think this is illegal.
Click to expand...

Completely legal.

Also annoying, inconsiderate, and makes you hard to see. You also don't give yourself much of a chance to visually check to make sure the landing surface is clear and in adequate condition.
 
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SPAJC said:
So don't kid yourself...when your s!@t gets stolen, you'll be p'd that the security wasn't in place to at least TRY to secure your investment.
Click to expand...


Nah. My insurance company will be ****ed.

I don't have any significant or heavy expectations of a 20-something working as an intern for Airport Ops doing the airplane version of Paul Blartt, Mall Cop.

No offense to airport interns, I'm just not going to blame them if a bad guy were to do something. Not the kid in the fancy airport pickup truck's fault.

As an aside, most airplanes aren't investments. They're liabilities. Heh. Very fun liabilities, but investment is on the other side of the balance sheet from airplanes. Haha.
 
Yeah I can agree with that....definitely a liability. And, our line guys, though very nice and helful guys, probably wouldn't notice if you drove the plane right through the terminal while you stole it....just sayin...


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denverpilot said:
I'm cool with nothing. It'd make the value of the hangar go up. LOL.

No seriously, tons of airports with nothing and they get by just fine. Many even have public viewing areas.

God forbid anyone know the Broncos flew some football player into Dove Valley... LOL.
Click to expand...


Does that mean you don't lock your car or your house? I didn't ever lock my jeep which had windows you could unzipper from the outside but I usually lock the Forester except when it is in my garage.

Philosophically, I don't insist that a system be perfect before it is implemented, nor do I see things in black and white. I can see the reason for fences and gates but I am not disturbed by either their presence or absence. At the home airport I do think fences are a good idea to limit people from strolling across busy ramps, but if they were not there, oh well.
 
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