Company GA Policy

I don't work so company travel reimbursments are not the issue to me, but the tax man is. Last year I rented and flew from San Diego to Santa Barbara to deal with an issue with a rental property there. Plane rent, car rental, one night lodging, meals. How much of this is tax deductible? My guess is I'll just have to take the standard mileage rate.
 
The time/cost savings is very much a regionally-dependent variable. In the NE (DC, NYC, BOS, etc) and SoCal locations, the ground travel or alternatives are excruciating. I can drive from TUL to KC or DFW (275 miles) in 3.5-4 hours. I takes 2.5 hours to take the airlines including the time to drive/get through TSA. Hard to beat. If I was having to deal with the awful traffic and ridiculous travel, I'd be a thorn in HR's side trying to get GA approved.


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luvflyin said:
I don't work so company travel reimbursments are not the issue to me, but the tax man is. Last year I rented and flew from San Diego to Santa Barbara to deal with an issue with a rental property there. Plane rent, car rental, one night lodging, meals. How much of this is tax deductible? My guess is I'll just have to take the standard mileage rate.
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Not an accountant but I think all of it is. IRS doesn't care about mode of transportation.
 
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ggroves said:
Keep your hobby a hobby.
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I have never considered my GA flying a "hobby", and neither has the IRS.
Similarly, when I learned to program and build computers, I never considered it a "hobby". Both have proved to be very useful tools for me and the companies I worked for. I presume those companies could have hired outside experts to do the computer work and the transportation, but having an inside person with that expertise was a big benefit in efficiency and productivity. I don't really see a difference between the two skills or tools/toolsets. If used properly, any tool can prove its weight in gold.
If you haven't figured out how to use your tools properly, you might need to improve or upgrade them (e.g. get an IR or a better plane), but don't try to discourage others who are just starting out.
 
Tampico Trauma said:
we have hit a brick wall with the VP of HR who won't even entertain the idea.

I claim auto mileage.
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Be careful. I watched a VP get fired this way. He insisted on flying his own aircraft on sales calls. At first, he would calculate what a coach commercial ticket would have cost the company, and he submitted this value on his expense report.

He was told to cease and desist.

He then started claiming auto mileage for air miles. He was fired for 1) ignoring the request to stop, and 2) falsifying an expense report.
 
If I could redirect - the OP was asking for responses from people who allow GA travel and wanting to see your policy statement on it.

But otherwise, sounds like a great thing for AOPA to take up after PBOR2 - business immunity for when employees fly GA.
 
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RotorDude said:
but don't try to discourage others who are just starting out.
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Lighten up. Nobody is discouraging anybody. I'm simply sharing the realities of how companies think. It's not just about liability. It's also justification. You know the old saying...."time to spare, go by air".
 
ggroves said:
Be careful. I watched a VP get fired this way. He insisted on flying his own aircraft on sales calls. At first, he would calculate what a coach commercial ticket would have cost the company, and he submitted this value on his expense report.



He was told to cease and desist.



He then started claiming auto mileage for air miles. He was fired for 1) ignoring the request to stop, and 2) falsifying an expense report.
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At this point, I'm willing to risk it.

The policy on mileage reimbursement expressly allows the use of other vehicles.... Motorcycles, wife's convertible (she doesn't have one, of course)

I'll evaluate my options if we ever get to the point of C&D.

In the meantime, I'm sure that when I run into my division VP in a couple weeks, we'll reignite that discussion again and I can hopefully get a few more people in a position of influence on my side.

My HR manager has offered to go into his network and put together a GA policy.

I would see it as this:

Min of 1MM of liability with additional insured.
Signed waiver of liability by myself and spouse
Flights to be conducted in VMC during normal defined working hours with attention to hours of duty regarding fatigue.
Economic Benefit analysis (time and expense vs driving or human mailing tube) I'm not going to fly myself to Phoenix for a meeting when I can catch 4 RJ's a day, but if I'm heading there then to Yuma then to SAN....it makes sense

You know, I'm not going to fly fatigued. I just won't do it. But I'll work an entire day and hop in my truck and do 7+ hours because it's not worth staying in another hotel.

Minimum equipment is a must. Plane must be in annual, void of mechanical defects...something even above 91 requirements.

I would never take Dad's 1960 Skylark. But I did attempt to use the age and low TT and SMOH of my '93 Socata as a selling point.




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azpilot said:
My employer won't even let us use our own personal automobiles for work travel over a certain distance. I am in the Phoenix area. There is a guy in my department that has meetings in San Diego with a supplier frequently. Our new policy prohibits him from driving his personal vehicle to San Diego. It's a five hour drive from our building to theirs. He has to fly commercial or rent a car to get there. It's all about the insurance, and liability avoidance.
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It may also be about cost avoidance. It's far cheaper to rent a car from Hertz, et al for $50 a day, unlimited mileage than it is to pay an employee $0.50 per mile over a long distance.

My company has this rule as well. It eliminates those situations where a few think they can make a few $$ off of using their own vehicle.
 
petrolero said:
To allow that one guy to do it would require a policy and probably different insurance, so most companies will default to "nope!"
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Corporate non-owned aircraft liability insurance.

http://www.avweb.com/news/insure/182783-1.html
Corporate Non-Owned Aircraft Liability Insurance policies can be broader in the types aircraft covered provided they are only operated by pilots furnished by the aircraft owner such as chartered aircraft. With chartered aircraft the exposures are mainly contingent liabilities since the charter customer is not directly involved with the operation and maintenance of the aircraft. If the pilot is an employee of the corporation being insured, coverage may still be available, but would be rated in accordance with the pilot's experience and may be limited to certain aircraft types or models.

How much does it cost?

Corporate Non-Owned Aircraft Liability is a little more involved because corporate insureds usually require higher limits of liability. Also, the rating depends on whether any employees of the corporation will serve as pilots or if only chartered aircraft will be used (pilots furnished by owner). If employee pilots are involved the pilot experience and types of aircraft to be used must be factored in along with other information such as anticipated hours and geographical areas involved.
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-Jim
 
ggroves said:
Lighten up. Nobody is discouraging anybody. I'm simply sharing the realities of how companies think. It's not just about liability. It's also justification. You know the old saying...."time to spare, go by air".
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I don't doubt that many, perhaps even most, companies have that ignorant mindset. Clearly a reflection of the same within the general population. But for me personally, if I were shopping around, a company with a GA-enlightened mindset would have a big plus, while the reverse could well be show-stopper.
 
RotorDude said:
I don't doubt that many, perhaps even most, companies have that ignorant mindset. Clearly a reflection of the same within the general population. But for me personally, if I were shopping around, a company with a GA-enlightened mindset would have a big plus, while the reverse could well be show-stopper.
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It will definitely be something I factor in if/when I leave my current company.

I'm sure they would come from together if they knew I was hitching rides on my customers CJ's and King Airs too. But that's how business gets done and how we all get to be home with our families at night.


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paflyer said:
Do they have a problem if you ride your motorcycle for business?
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timwinters said:
Don't recall if they asked me if I owned one or not.
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paflyer said:
Originally Posted by paflyer \
Do they have a problem if you ride your motorcycle for business?



That was a rhetorical question. Meaning it's a perception vs reality.
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It's just a factor of what risks are baked into the company's insurance rates by the actuaries. Cars and motorcycles are common ground transportation and are probably baked into the rates while piston GA is not. In any case, a motorcycle's hull value is far less than a plane, carries one rider as opposed to 4+, and virtually never kills more than the rider nor seriously damages more than the motorcycle itself. Motorcycles don't land on houses or kill people on beaches, etc.

It's just not baked into most policies. It can be... if the business asks for it and pays for it. But really why would they given this...

ggroves said:
Most businesses would be correct on this for most use cases. Too many times, pilots want to extend their hobby into business use, where the use simply isn't justified. Almost no ones time is that valuable. Big airport to big airport just doesn't make sense given cheap airfares, weather delays and distractions for GA fliers, and risk.

We had a consultant a few years back fly his airplane from Pittsburgh to No. Va. for a meeting with us. The weather was marginal. He was late getting there, was distracted checking the weather during the meeting, and cut the meeting short to leave early to "beat weather".

Keep your hobby a hobby.
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This.

When you fly airline there is no faster, safer, and more reliable (on average) mode of transport MOST of the time**. So if you're late then it's not unreasonable. It's just luck of the draw due to weather or ATC delay and everyone relates to that. When you fly your own airplane and are late people ask why TF you didn't fly airline. If you have to be someplace at a certain time, go by airline. Not because you'll actually get there on time but because you can say that you took every reasonable measure to be there on time. Most people would view flying your own plane as somehow irresponsible when weather goes bad or mechanical issues arise. Airline ops are designed to mitigate all those common problems.

**There are places the airlines simply don't fly -- as inmost of the land mass of the world. There are times when I can access these places far faster with my small airplane than with a car or airliner. In my case, it's oil field towns out west. If you want to go from Denver to, say, Sheridan, WY by airline you're SOL. For many other cities there are connecting flights from smaller part 121 airports. You are often "traveling" 6 hours or more for a trip like that... by airplane. Those trips simply are not drivable in any reasonable time either. :no:

So this is why companies that have operations in those cities turn to chartered small bizjets and King Airs. There's just no other reasonable way to get their (non-pilot) people out there. In those situations a small plane might make sense but still most companies won't allow it because it only solves the problem for one person and they don't want Joe Pilot taking out 2 or 3 of his colleagues for some reason - and then who will their families sue? :yes:
 
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ggroves said:
It may also be about cost avoidance. It's far cheaper to rent a car from Hertz, et al for $50 a day, unlimited mileage than it is to pay an employee $0.50 per mile over a long distance.

My company has this rule as well. It eliminates those situations where a few think they can make a few $$ off of using their own vehicle.
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Before, when we could take a private vehicle, they would not reimburse more than the expected airfare and car rental would be.

For example, if round trip air fare and care rental was quoted at $350, but you drove 800 miles (@$.50 a mile = $400), they would only reimburse you $350.

In our staff meeting, we were told the reason for the policy change was that an employee had taken his car on an out of state work trip and got in a car accident. He failed to report it to the company, which our travel policy required him to do, and caused a big headache from an insurance point of view. We were told that this instance specifically resulted in the policy change.
 
Kiddo's Driver said:
I see what you did there...



On a different note, nice to see another Tampico driver on the board!



-Jim
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Yes... Another one of us who has to explain to every single controller what a Tampico is.

To quote another TB9 driver from the Socata board.... So fast the sky be cryin'!


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petrolero said:
... they don't want Joe Pilot taking out 2 or 3 of his colleagues for some reason - and then who will their families sue? :yes:
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Who do they sue if Joe Driver takes out the same, or more, people?
 
Tampico Trauma said:
Yes... Another one of us who has to explain to every single controller what a Tampico is.

To quote another TB9 driver from the Socata board.... So fast the sky be cryin'!


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That is Mike's quote. Mine is ripped off from a Howlin' Wolf song: "I'm built for comfort, I ain't built for speed."

I say Tango Alpha Mike Papa right after I say Socata Tampico. That way they know what to type into the computer. I have not had to explain what it is after I started doing that.
 
paflyer said:
Who do they sue if Joe Driver takes out the same, or more, people?
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They sue the company and its insurer whose defense will be that driving is a normal and reasonable mode of transportation, covered by their HR policy and, thus, their insurance. That case would be settled out of court by the insurer most likely.

Flying a GA plane would not be covered by HR policy nor by insurance and the company would be open to lawsuit directly with no insurance protection at all.
 
Kiddo's Driver said:
That is Mike's quote. Mine is ripped off from a Howlin' Wolf song: "I'm built for comfort, I ain't built for speed."

I say Tango Alpha Mike Papa right after I say Socata Tampico. That way they know what to type into the computer. I have not had to explain what it is after I started doing that.
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"I don't know... someone up the line put in "tampon" under type. Beats me."


:D
 
petrolero said:
They sue the company and its insurer whose defense will be that driving is a normal and reasonable mode of transportation, covered by their HR policy and, thus, their insurance. That case would be settled out of court by the insurer most likely.

Flying a GA plane would not be covered by HR policy nor by insurance and the company would be open to lawsuit directly with no insurance protection at all.
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How is flying not a normal and reasonable mode of transportation? Aren't you a pilot?

The point is that there's no legit reason why a properly current PP shouldn't be able to use an aircraft the same as a personal vehicle except for the perception by non-pilots that it's on par with bungee jumping in Mexico. And that's the ONLY reason it's not allowed by HR pinheads. Insurance is available.
 
JeffDG said:
E-mail retention is a PITA.

However, the important thing is, if you can destroy, to do it by policy and consistently enforce that policy.

The worst thing you can do is do a massive cleanup the day before a suit is filed.
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"You mean, like, wipe it with a cloth?" - HR Clinton

(I thought I'd add that to your most excellent quotes...)
 
So here's the latest. We are talking liability insurance with our insurance carrier. We're starting to talk about some numbers that seem out of whack, but for those of you that may have been through this before, I thought I'd run it past you.

What the insurance brokers have said (I'm getting this secondhand from our CTO) is that they would write a corporate police for GA, but only after the pilot has their own liability policy at $5 million with my company listed as additional insured. Then the company would have their own policy to cover any overages also at a $5 million dollar amount.

The $5 million corporate amount seems in the ballpark for what I've seen elsewhere, but I don't think that I can touch $5 million for myself anywhere. We've gone back to the insurance broker to see if they could even write a $5 million liability policy for me, but I don't think that will happen. When I was looking at insurance on a plane if I purchased one, I was only able to get $1 million and typically couldn't even get $2 million without 500 - 750 hours.

I'm thinking they may be throwing out that requirement knowing that it is unattainable, which is a crap thing to do.
 
I've talked to a guy that flies his own plane to work in D.C. He said it saves him tons of time vs sitting in traffic. Whenever the weather is bad he will carpool with other government workers.
 
jheyen said:
So here's the latest. We are talking liability insurance with our insurance carrier. We're starting to talk about some numbers that seem out of whack, but for those of you that may have been through this before, I thought I'd run it past you.

What the insurance brokers have said (I'm getting this secondhand from our CTO) is that they would write a corporate police for GA, but only after the pilot has their own liability policy at $5 million with my company listed as additional insured. Then the company would have their own policy to cover any overages also at a $5 million dollar amount.

The $5 million corporate amount seems in the ballpark for what I've seen elsewhere, but I don't think that I can touch $5 million for myself anywhere. We've gone back to the insurance broker to see if they could even write a $5 million liability policy for me, but I don't think that will happen. When I was looking at insurance on a plane if I purchased one, I was only able to get $1 million and typically couldn't even get $2 million without 500 - 750 hours.

I'm thinking they may be throwing out that requirement knowing that it is unattainable, which is a crap thing to do.
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Yes, it sounds like they are highballing it to get you and your company discouraged.
I'd go to progressive aviation minded carriers, like AOPA or AVEMCO, for a quote. In fact, if you are an AOPA member, call them up and ask them for advice and ideally a quote. If it is (hopefully) lower, hook them up with your employer.
As I said elsewhere in this thread, for me a GA-friendly employer would be an essential requirement. Ideally the top dogs should be fliers themselves.
BTW, as an employer I'd require any employee pilot who is flying on business to be IFR rated and current, and have minimum hours in type. Ideally even a CPL.
 
I haven't been told whom they are working with but that's something I've asked. These insurers have been with the company for quite a while, but not sure how up they are on aviation. I'm definitely following up with that. We fly drones commercially for surveying (I'm listed as one of the pilots as well) and the quote for that was crazy.

My suggested ga policy required IFR as a minimum with 10 hours minimum in the aircraft to be used.

I just got my instrument rating this week, so that times out pretty well.
 
Our company recently walked around handing a form to release driving records of employees to their insurer, not for the folks who drive company vehicles, but for the occasional run to a parts store or whatever for fixing things.

I turned them down and told them someone else can go get cheap SSDs at Microcenter or they can pay more on Amazon and let UPS do the driving.

I was doing it as a favor and as a "conscientious" employee anyway. If it's now a requirement to have the insurer looking at my personal info to stop on the way home, to hell with it. Find someone who'll deliver and charge you for it.
 
Yeah, my company asked not for driving records but details on my personal auto insurer. I told them to politely take a hike.
 
RotorDude said:
. . . BTW, as an employer I'd require any employee pilot who is flying on business to be IFR rated and current, and have minimum hours in type. Ideally even a CPL.
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It's a good thing you aren't my employer. I understand you would want to mitigate as much of the risk exposure as possible, but you'd be limiting the non-IR guys from flying on perfectly nice VFR days. Needing a CPL to fly for personal business? Would you require they have a CDL in order to rent a car as well?
 
I think there's a healthy share of pilots who would be willing to accept all liability for flying to and from company business. It's a damn shame that I fight a constant battle with my HR department over the fact that I do about 30 trips a year down 7 hours of highway each way that have sections that are far deadlier than the national average. I've had the close calls. I've almost bought the farm twice, hell, last April a big rig sideswiped me and fled the scene....

All while driving my own vehicle on a third-party administered reimbursement program?

But flying my own, modern plane in VFR conditions is akin to things only Evel Knievel would consider doing?

If my company gave a shiat about my well-being and safety, they'd make it easy for me to fly.

Next employer will be GA friendly or it's not happening.



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I've never worked for anyone that prohibited it and I've flown GA (when it makes sense) many times. I will only fly GA though if I think there will be a significant time savings that results in the company saving money. In addition I always pull up what an airline flight costs and I don't ask for a dollar more then what the airlines would have cost.

If the airlines can get me there quicker, I suck it up, and take the airlines.

If I need to go somewhere within about 500 miles of my home base, typically, GA is a more efficient operation and I default to it.
 
Exactly. My primary focus is between BFL and NYL. 7 hour drive, 6 hours of Airline time between security/flight/PHX Layover/flight and the choice of two flights per day at bad times for me.

It's a little under three hours in the Tampico. But I can also stop at TRM and see some of my farmers.

My biggest dealer is across the street from the tie downs at BWC, my second biggest dealer is 1 mi north of IPL....

Couple that with meetings in San Diego, Salinas, and Stockton on a normal basis and I could gain a day a week back if I flew.... All to destinations that the airlines can't touch.


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SoonerAviator said:
It's a good thing you aren't my employer. I understand you would want to mitigate as much of the risk exposure as possible, but you'd be limiting the non-IR guys from flying on perfectly nice VFR days. Needing a CPL to fly for personal business? Would you require they have a CDL in order to rent a car as well?
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What I said was "flying on business", i.e. company business, not "personal business". Sure, if you just fly your family to visit Grandma, I see no reason (as an employer) to ask for a CPL or IR. But if you fly to visit customer sites, I'd definitely require IR, and encourage CPL.
 
Here's one lawyerly-reason that some employers don't want a GA policy and don't want to risk the liability: the more specific your company "policy" is, the more it appears the company is controlling the flight. The more it appears the company is controlling the flight, the more liability some plaintiff's lawyer will try to impose on the company (rightly or wrongly). When a company policy starts dictating things about acceptable weather, minimum equipment on the airplane, flight planning, etc., it sure starts to look like the company is exercising a lot of control over the flight.
 
RotorDude said:
What I said was "flying on business", i.e. company business, not "personal business". Sure, if you just fly your family to visit Grandma, I see no reason (as an employer) to ask for a CPL or IR. But if you fly to visit customer sites, I'd definitely require IR, and encourage CPL.
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I apologize for the verbiage, but I meant on company business. Why is a CPL or IR necessary to complete a GA flight, regardless of purpose? It's not; your "policy" would just be limiting which pilots could fly themselves for company business unnecessarily. If the weather is bad, the VFR pilot drives, the IR-rated guy considers the severity of the weather before a go-no go. What did you prevent by requiring an IR or CPL for flying on company business? The possibility of a VFR-guy flying off into the clag for a business trip? Chances are the VFR-guy isn't going to be risking his life/license/job over a customer visit that could be made by driving.

My point is I just don't understand why you'd limit it to IR/CPL pilots. If you don't make them get a CDL to drive the rental car/personal vehicle, why require the equivalent for an aircraft?
 
SoonerAviator said:
I apologize for the verbiage, but I meant on company business. Why is a CPL or IR necessary to complete a GA flight, regardless of purpose? It's not; your "policy" would just be limiting which pilots could fly themselves for company business unnecessarily. If the weather is bad, the VFR pilot drives, the IR-rated guy considers the severity of the weather before a go-no go. What did you prevent by requiring an IR or CPL for flying on company business? The possibility of a VFR-guy flying off into the clag for a business trip? Chances are the VFR-guy isn't going to be risking his life/license/job over a customer visit that could be made by driving.

My point is I just don't understand why you'd limit it to IR/CPL pilots. If you don't make them get a CDL to drive the rental car/personal vehicle, why require the equivalent for an aircraft?
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First, I wouldn't require a CPL, only encourage it. I would require IR, however.
My reasons are based on my own perspective, having flown in both modes on business, over decades.
I consider myself a very conscientious and rule-abiding pilot, yet I can tell you that on almost every business flight as VFR-only, I was strongly tempted to push the limits. I didn't, then got my IR, and realized that the IFR ticket is more than just the ability to fly in poor weather, it is more of an attitude. You may still be a private pilot on paper, but by flying IFR (even in good weather) you force yourself into a professional regimen. Everything you do, before and during the flight, is a lot more structured and regimented. Assuming you are a conscientious pilot to start with, flying IFR channels you into the mindset of a pro, and your operation becomes more like an airline.
Yes, you may buy the farm both as VFR and IFR, but as IFR rated, proficient and current, you are more likely to get there and back in one piece, IMO.
The very fact that you went into the trouble to get the rating and maintain it, clearly demonstrates an attitude. And it is that attitude that I'd be looking for in an employee flying on business.
 
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