Communications ?

Speedy

Speedy

Pre-Flight
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Apr 29, 2012
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94
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Panama City Beach, Fl
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Speedy
What is the rule about changing frequency. Im flying with a buddy to go pick up an airplane. On the wat back home, I would like to be able to talk to him ove rthe radio.

Do I need to tell anyone we want to do this. It's going to be about an hour flight back home. No flight following.

Is this allowed ?

Thanks
 
Why not just use 123.45 or 123.5?

I usually use those for BS purposes.
 
MachFly said:
Why not just use 123.45 or 123.5?

I usually use those for BS purposes.
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Because you might as well at least try using the ones the FAA wants you to use... I'm not sure 123.45 is still "frowned upon" or whatever, but 123.5 is listed in the AIM as "Aviation instruction, Glider, Hot Air Balloon (not to be used for advisory service)."

No, nobody is going to care, but the first reply was the correct answer.
 
dukeblue219 said:
Because you might as well at least try using the ones the FAA wants you to use... I'm not sure 123.45 is still "frowned upon" or whatever, but 123.5 is listed in the AIM as "Aviation instruction, Glider, Hot Air Balloon (not to be used for advisory service)."

No, nobody is going to care, but the first reply was the correct answer.
Click to expand...

Aviation instruction? Are they talking about formation training when you have to talk to the other aircraft?
 
Speedy said:
What is the rule about changing frequency. Im flying with a buddy to go pick up an airplane. On the wat back home, I would like to be able to talk to him ove rthe radio.

Do I need to tell anyone we want to do this.
Click to expand...
You do if you're working with ATC and will not be monitoring their frequency. But since you're planning not to be talking to ATC, nobody cares as long as you stick to the one legal frequency for this sort of thing in the CONUS -- 122.75.
 
MachFly said:
Why not just use 123.45 or 123.5?
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Because those frequencies are assigned to specific users. Your unauthorized use of them would be in violation of FCC regulations and, since 123.45 is a flight test freq for Lockheed and Boeing, potentially subject you to civil action for any costs they incur due to your interference with their operations.
 
MachFly said:
Aviation instruction? Are they talking about formation training when you have to talk to the other aircraft?
Click to expand...
No, they are not. Those freqs are reserved for comm between authorized flight schools' aircraft and their FCC-licensed aviation ground station.
 
MachFly said:
Not at all.
If AIM recommends something different it doesn't mean that I'm required to do something in a specific way.
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That last part is more or less correct, but the first line is not. The FCC regulates the airwaves, and their regulations say that unauthorized use of radio frequencies is illegal. The AIM authorizes you to use 122.75 for air-to-air comm, so you can do that. OTOH, there is nothing authorizing you to use other freq's for that purpose, and there is the FCC regulation on unauthorized use of any frequency other than those you are authorized to use.
 
MachFly said:
Not at all.
If AIM recommends something different it doesn't mean that I'm required to do something in a specific way.
Click to expand...

Its an FCC rule, not an FAA rule. The AIM means nothing in this case.
 
Ron Levy said:
That last part is more or less correct, but the first line is not. The FCC regulates the airwaves, and their regulations say that unauthorized use of radio frequencies is illegal. The AIM authorizes you to use 122.75 for air-to-air comm, so you can do that. OTOH, there is nothing authorizing you to use other freq's for that purpose, and there is the FCC regulation on unauthorized use of any frequency other than those you are authorized to use.
Click to expand...

Okay well in that case it's a rule that's absolutely not enforced. You know that everyone uses 123.45 and neither the FAA or the FCC are doing anything about it.
 
MachFly said:
Okay well in that case it's a rule that's absolutely not enforced. You know that everyone uses 123.45 and neither the FAA or the FCC are doing anything about it.
Click to expand...
One of many rules that aren't enforced; however, given that this one is no burden to follow, I do not see an issue with doing it right!
 
MachFly said:
Okay well in that case it's a rule that's absolutely not enforced. You know that everyone uses 123.45 and neither the FAA or the FCC are doing anything about it.
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That may be so, but it is the rule, and the fact that nobody's been caught and violated over it doesn't change that fact. You either choose to play by the rules, or you don't. You're free to choose for yourself, but please don't recommend that others do things you know are not legal.
 
ChrisK said:
One of many rules that aren't enforced; however, given that this one is no burden to follow, I do not see an issue with doing it right!
Click to expand...

If it's just something that one person can do then I'd agree. The problem is that 123.45 is used by quite a lot of pilots and in order to start using a different frequency you need to get everyone to do that at the same time. If one pilot switches to 122.75 it will be pretty useless as everyone else is still on 123.45.
 
And when I'm wearing a different hat, I bust retrain anyone who even SAYS fingers.
 
Ron Levy said:
That may be so, but it is the rule, and the fact that nobody's been caught and violated over it doesn't change that fact. You either choose to play by the rules, or you don't. You're free to choose for yourself, but please don't recommend that others do things you know are not legal.
Click to expand...

Actually I didn't know it's illegal, but regardless of that. The OP asked for frequency to use, you guys told him what the AIM recommends, I told him what's realistically used by everyone. He can make up his own mind of what's better for him.
 
MachFly said:
Not at all.
If AIM recommends something different it doesn't mean that I'm required to do something in a specific way.
Click to expand...

Frequency 123.45 MHz is assigned to aircraft manufacturers for test purposes; it is also assigned to some North Atlantic sectors. Here in Seattle it belongs to Boeing, and I would guess that they use it in Wichita and Charleston as well. It is not a general aviation frequency.

Read up on anti-authority in any text on risk management.

Bob Gardner
 
MachFly said:
The OP asked for frequency to use, you guys told him what the AIM recommends, I told him what's realistically used by everyone.
Click to expand...
No, you told him what you think everyone uses, and you're quite wrong about that. All of the civilian formation training groups (FAST, FFI, etc.) teach otherwise.
 
MachFly said:
Actually I didn't know it's illegal, but regardless of that. The OP asked for frequency to use, you guys told him what the AIM recommends, I told him what's realistically used by everyone. He can make up his own mind of what's better for him.
Click to expand...

All the cargo guys in my area use this as a party line. I can't even count the number of times late at night I hear them telling each other on center freq. to "come up on fingers".

Funny to listen to and passes the time I guess.
 
Didn't think it would turn out into a brawl.

I'll use the one they want me to use 122.75

It's only an hour flight.

Thanks Guys
 
Alexb2000 said:
All the cargo guys in my area use this as a party line. I can't even count the number of times late at night I hear them telling each other on center freq. to "come up on fingers".

Funny to listen to and passes the time I guess.
Click to expand...

thank you
 
Speedy said:
Didn't think it would turn out into a brawl.

I'll use the one they want me to use 122.75

It's only an hour flight.

Thanks Guys
Click to expand...

Not your fault. This one always turns into a bit of a tussle ;)
 
Not that it really matters because we cannot use it, as I read it, per Title 47 part Part 87.303(a), (b) 123.45 is not assigned to aircraft manufacturers.

:D
Food for thought......
The frequencies 121.950 MHz, 122.850 MHz and 127.050 1 MHz are authorized for air-to-air use for aircraft up to and including 3 km (10,000 ft) mean sea level in the vicinity of Grand Canyon National Park in Arizona within the area bounded by the following coordinates (all coordinates are referenced to North American Datum 1983 (NAD83)):
36-27-59.9 N. Lat; 112-47-2.7 W. Long.

36-27-59.9 N. Lat; 112-48-2.7 W. Long.

35-50-00.0 N. Lat; 112-48-2.7 W. Long.

35-43-00.0 N. Lat; 112-47-2.7 W. Long.

The frequency 120.650 MHz 1 is authorized for air-to-air use for aircraft up to and including 3 km (10,000 ft) mean sea level within the area bounded by the following coordinates (all coordinates are referenced to North American Datum 1983 (NAD83)):

35-59-44.9 N. Lat; 114-51-48.0 W. Long.
36-09-29.9 N. Lat; 114-50-3.0 W. Long.
36-09-29.9 N. Lat; 114-02-57.9 W. Long.
35-54-45.0 N. Lat; 113-48-47.8 W. Long.
(dd) The frequencies 136.425, 136.450, and 136.475 MHz are designated for flight information services—broadcast and may not be used by aircraft for transmission.

(ee) The frequency 121.95 MHz is authorized for air-to-ground and air-to-air communications for aircraft up to 13000 feet above mean sea level (AMSL) within the area bounded by the following coordinates (all coordinates are referenced to North American Datum 1983 (NAD83)):

32-35-00 N. Lat.; 117-12-00 W. Long.
32-42-00 N. Lat.; 116-56-00 W. Long.
32-41-00 N. Lat.; 116-41-00 W. Long.
32-35-00 N. Lat.; 116-38-00 W. Long.
32-31-00 N. Lat.; 117-11-00 W. Long.

The frequency 120.650 MHz is authorized for air-to-air communications for aircraft over and within five nautical miles of the shoreline of the Hawaiian Island of Maui
The frequency 121.950 MHz is authorized for air-to-air use for aircraft over and within five nautical miles of the shoreline of the Hawaiian Island of Molokai.
The frequency 122.850 MHz is authorized for air-to-air use for aircraft over and within five nautical miles of the shoreline of the Hawaiian Island of Oahu.
The frequency 127.050 MHz is authorized for air-to-air use for aircraft over and within five nautical miles of the shoreline of the Hawaiian Island of Hawaii when aircraft are north and west of the 215 degree radial of very high frequency omni-directional radio range of Hilo International Airport.
The frequency 127.050 MHz is authorized for air-to-air use for aircraft over and within five nautical miles of the Hawaiian Island of Kauai.

The frequency 121.95 MHz is authorized for air-to-air communications for aircraft within the area bounded by the following coordinates (all coordinates are referenced to North American Datum 1983 (NAD83)):

33-46-00 N. Lat.; 118-27-00 W. Long.
33-47-00 N. Lat.; 118-12-00 W. Long.
33-40-00 N. Lat.; 118-00-00 W. Long.
33-35-00 N. Lat.; 118-08-00 W. Long.
34-00-00 N. Lat.; 118-26-00 W. Long.

The frequency 122.775 MHz is authorized for air-to-air communications for aircraft within the area bounded by the following coordinates (all coordinates are referenced to North American Datum 1983 (NAD83)):

34-22-00 N. Lat.; 118-30-00 W. Long.
34-35-00 N. Lat.; 118-15-00 W. Long.
34-27-00 N. Lat.; 118-15-00 W. Long.
34-16-00 N. Lat.; 118-35-00 W. Long.
34-06-00 N. Lat.; 118-35-00 W. Long.
34-05-00 N. Lat.; 118-50-00 W. Long.

The frequency 123.30 MHz is authorized for air-to-air communications for aircraft within the area bounded by the following coordinates (all coordinates are referenced to North American Datum 1983 (NAD83)):

34-08-00 N. Lat.; 118-00-00 W. Long.
34-10-00 N. Lat.; 117-08-00 W. Long.
34-00-00 N. Lat.; 117-08-00 W. Long.
33-53-00 N. Lat.; 117-42-00 W. Long.
33-58-00 N. Lat.; 118-00-00 W. Long.

The frequency 123.50 MHz is authorized for air-to-air communications for aircraft within the area bounded by the following coordinates (all coordinates are referenced to North American Datum 1983 (NAD83)):

33-53-00 N. Lat.; 117-37-00 W. Long.
34-00-00 N. Lat.; 117-15-00 W. Long.
34-00-00 N. Lat.; 117-07-00 W. Long.
33-28-00 N. Lat.; 116-55-00 W. Long.
33-27-00 N. Lat.; 117-12-00 W. Long.

The frequency 123.50 MHz is authorized for air-to-air communications for aircraft within the area bounded by the following coordinates (all coordinates are referenced to North American Datum 1983 (NAD83)):

33-50-00 N. Lat.; 117-48-00 W. Long.
33-51-00 N. Lat.; 117-41-00 W. Long.
33-38-00 N. Lat.; 117-30-00 W. Long.
33-30-00 N. Lat.; 117-30-00 W. Long.
33-30-00 N. Lat.; 117-49-00 W. Long.
 
Last edited:
cherokeeflyboy said:
Not that it really matters because we cannot use it, as I read it, per Title 47 part Part 87.303(a), (b) 123.45 is not assigned to aircraft manufacturers.
Click to expand...
But it is assigned to the flight test branches of those aircraft manufacturers, which you can see if you go to the FCC ULS frequency assignment web site.
 
Now perhaps this makes too much sense for it ever to happen, but wouldn't it be pretty easy to switch the uses of 122.75 and 123.45? It can't be an inconvenience to those who use 123.45 for its assigned purpose to turn a little knob a few clicks. I'd imagine that there are a LOT fewer of them than there are pilots who use (or would use) 123.45 for air to air.
 
Ron Levy said:
Because those frequencies are assigned to specific users. Your unauthorized use of them would be in violation of FCC regulations and, since 123.45 is a flight test freq for Lockheed and Boeing, potentially subject you to civil action for any costs they incur due to your interference with their operations.
Click to expand...

And Jim Wier (the D is silent) who has been known to sue pilots who disrupt his flight testing with random chit chat on fingers.

There was also an improper listing of 122.85 as air-to-air. It is not. It's an assigned frequency to some fixed operators and is shared with multicom when it will not conflict with another user.
 
jpower said:
Now perhaps this makes too much sense for it ever to happen, but wouldn't it be pretty easy to switch the uses of 122.75 and 123.45? It can't be an inconvenience to those who use 123.45 for its assigned purpose to turn a little knob a few clicks. I'd imagine that there are a LOT fewer of them than there are pilots who use (or would use) 123.45 for air to air.
Click to expand...
Frequency assignments aren't as simple as you make it sound. And why would it be simpler to do that than for those who want to chat in flight to use the correct frequency?
 
Ron Levy said:
Frequency assignments aren't as simple as you make it sound. And why would it be simpler to do that than for those who want to chat in flight to use the correct frequency?
Click to expand...
Perhaps the FFI and FAST ought to petition the FCC for a handful of air-air frequencies for formation flights?
 
gismo said:
Perhaps the FFI and FAST ought to petition the FCC for a handful of air-air frequencies for formation flights?
Click to expand...
It's the FAA whom they'd have to petition -- the FCC pretty much gives the whole 118-136 band to the FAA to engineer. I've gotten temporary frequencies from the FAA for AYA events before, and we work through the FAA's Operational Support Group for that. After we get the freq from the FAA, we go to the FCC for a license for the ground station on that freq.

Problem would be finding a frequency which would work over a wide region at pretty much any altitude below 18,000 without interfering with any other operation. The frequencies we get for the AYA events are generally limited to 1500 AGL and a 5-mile radius around the convention airport. But I suppose the question could be asked -- worst they can do is say "stick with 122.75".
 
Ron Levy said:
Frequency assignments aren't as simple as you make it sound.
Click to expand...

Well I don't know the process. How does it work? That's part of what I was curious about.

Ron Levy said:
And why would it be simpler to do that than for those who want to chat in flight to use the correct frequency?
Click to expand...
Because realistically, it seems like people simply don't use the correct frequency, and no amount of badgering will get them to use the correct one. And it seems many more people use 123.45 as an air to air frequency than use it for its intended purpose, so why not just let them have it officially? Unless reassigning frequencies is like moving mountains, it seems like letting 123.45 be air to air is pretty logical.
 
jpower said:
Well I don't know the process. How does it work? That's part of what I was curious about.
Click to expand...
You contact the FAA Regional Service Center and fill out the form they use. They review it, decide if your request meets their criteria for such assignments, and then the engineers pick a frequency from the ones available which works where you want to use it (location, altitude, transmitter power, etc) without interfering with other operations. I suspect there's an AC or FAA Order which has the approval criteria, but I've never looked for it.
 
Ron Levy said:
But it is assigned to the flight test branches of those aircraft manufacturers, which you can see if you go to the FCC ULS frequency assignment web site.
Click to expand...

I dont know about that Ron. It might just be a matter of Semantics. I based my post on the Regs as I understand them. Nowhere does it say "flight test branches of aircraft manufactures"

What it says is:
"§ 87.303 Frequencies.
(a) These frequencies are available for assignment to flight test land and aircraft stations:
123.175 123.225 123.400 123.200 123.375 123.450

(b) These additional frequencies are available for assignment only to flight test stations of aircraft manufacturers:
123.125 123.275 123.425 123.550 123.150 123.325 123.475 123.575 123.250 123.350 123.525
 
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