Commercial Rating Questions

CC268

CC268

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CC268
I was going through today and calculating costs for the Commercial rating on an Excel sheet. I am using this checklist as a reference as it helps summarize everything.

http://faaflighttest.us/cprating.pdf

So assuming you already have the Instrument rating, really the only instructor time is for 10 hours complex time, 3 hours prep for the practical exam within the past 2 months, and then whatever ground instruction? (I suppose the 3 hours could actually be included in the 10 hours complex)

So maybe 20-25 hours of time paid to an instructor?

Really the rest of the rating can be done in my own airplane or will be covered in my instrument rating.

Multiengine add on would probably be another 15 hours plus ground instruction time?
 
Don't forget about the two dual cross countries. I did my multi add on at one of those weekend course things. I think I had 7 hours of multi time by the time I was done with the checkride.
 
jordane93 said:
Don't forget about the two dual cross countries. I did my multi add on at one of those weekend course things. I think I had 7 hours of multi time by the time I was done with the checkride.
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Ahh shoot okay for some reason I read those as if you could do them on your own and not with an instructor.

Just trying to get a ballpark estimate of how many hours I can expect to pay an instructor for the single engine commercial and multi engine I guess. I have looked at a few flight school and I suppose I can just use their estimates for instructor cost.
 
CC268 said:
Ahh shoot okay for some reason I read those as if you could do them on your own and not with an instructor.

Just trying to get a ballpark estimate of how many hours I can expect to pay an instructor for the single engine commercial and multi engine I guess. I have looked at a few flight school and I suppose I can just use their estimates for instructor cost.
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You're thinking of the long cross country. That one can be dual or solo. The commercial is one of the easier rides. You'll probably be ready in the minimum training requirements.
 
jordane93 said:
You're thinking of the long cross country. That one can be dual or solo. The commercial is one of the easier rides. You'll probably be ready in the minimum training requirements.
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Yea thanks for clearing that up. Do you think 20 hours flight instruction and 20 hours ground is reasonable for the single engine commercial rating? The flight school I got my PPL at estimates 15 flight instruction and 15 ground for it.

Multi-engine add on maybe 10 flight instruction and 10 ground?

Thanks for your help. It is appreciated.
 
I'd be shocked if it took 15 hours of ground, but 10-15 of flight time depending on how readily the aerodynamics of what you're trying to do click. Its all about managing the energy of the airplane. If you can do that well the landings are easy
 
CC268 said:
Yea thanks for clearing that up. Do you think 20 hours flight instruction and 20 hours ground is reasonable for the single engine commercial rating? The flight school I got my PPL at estimates 15 flight instruction and 15 ground for it.

Multi-engine add on maybe 10 flight instruction and 10 ground?

Thanks for your help. It is appreciated.
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20 hours of flight time sounds about right. Most of the ground can be done on your own. The only ground work I did was a mock oral prep for the checkride and a systems ground lesson covering mostly the landing gear system and the constant speed prop. 10 is a good number for the multi. You'll probably ready in less than that. Same thing for the ground. You can study most of the stuff on your own.
 
jordane93 said:
20 hours of flight time sounds about right. Most of the ground can be done on your own. The only ground work I did was a mock oral prep for the checkride and a systems ground lesson covering mostly the landing gear system and the constant speed prop. 10 is a good number for the multi. You'll probably ready in less than that. Same thing for the ground. You can study most of the stuff on your own.
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Thanks for the help
 
airheadpenguin said:
I'd be shocked if it took 15 hours of ground, but 10-15 of flight time depending on how readily the aerodynamics of what you're trying to do click. Its all about managing the energy of the airplane. If you can do that well the landings are easy
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Thanks for the feedback
 
Without knowing your skill level and knowledge level, pretty tough to give a real estimate.
 
Clip4 said:
Without knowing your skill level and knowledge level, pretty tough to give a real estimate.
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Above average skill level and self motivated with above average knowledge level :)

In all honesty though...it shouldn't be hard to get a decent estimate within +- $2000.
 
CFI seems probably the most vague in terms of cost and instructor time. Seems to be somewhat of a large spread in estimated costs for that one. I have seen anywhere from $4k to $7.5k
 
CC268 said:
CFI seems probably the most vague in terms of cost and instructor time. Seems to be somewhat of a large spread in estimated costs for that one. I have seen anywhere from $4k to $7.5k
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Depends how motivated you are to study in your own.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Depends how motivated you are to study in your own.
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Not trying to be full of it, cocky, etc...but you would be hard pressed to find someone who puts in the time that I do and self studies as much as I do (I thank my engineering degree for that).

To date I have read the following (and I only have a PPL + Instrument written done) - Pilots Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge, Airplane Flying Handbook, Risk Management Handbook, Say Again Please, quite a bit of the AIM, Instrument Flying Handbook, and currently reading Instrument Procedures Handbook. I may be missing a few things as well. Of course I can't retain all that info! But I have put in the time to do the best that I can do. I've had my PPL for a year. Every CFI I have flown with (which is quite a few) has always been pleased with my progress and self motivation.

Anyways...I have some decent estimates for everything except CFI at this point, which is a ways off anyways
 
Walboy said:
The trick is going to be access to a complex airplane for the checkride. I did mine several years ago at Chandler Air Service and had to follow their syllabus without deviation which included ground instruction. Most of it was unnecessary, but some of it was worthwhile.
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Yea so I accounted for the complex aircraft hours in my spreadsheet and actually used Chandler Air Service's rates for their Arrow. I did the aerobatic course at Chandler Air Service and they were awesome. I won't use them for the Commercial rating though as they are too far. But yea I will have to see if I can find a complex aircraft I can rent at KDVT. Worst case I can rent the Arrow at KSDL where I got my PPL...but you pay a premium over there thats for sure.
 
When I was completing my cpl, I did both checkrides in the same day. I combined the single engine land and multi engine training. For the check ride I flew the 172 in the morning and then the multi (Complex) maneuvers in the afternoon. Avoided trying to find a complex single and saved some money and time.
 
Matt L said:
When I was completing my cpl, I did both checkrides in the same day. I combined the single engine land and multi engine training. For the check ride I flew the 172 in the morning and then the multi (Complex) maneuvers in the afternoon. Avoided trying to find a complex single and saved some money and time.
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Could you PM and maybe provide more details about this? Might be interested in going this route.
 
Matt L said:
When I was completing my cpl, I did both checkrides in the same day. I combined the single engine land and multi engine training. For the check ride I flew the 172 in the morning and then the multi (Complex) maneuvers in the afternoon. Avoided trying to find a complex single and saved some money and time.
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I'm confused. As far as I know, you can't demonstrate the complex part of the single engine checkride in a multi.
What am I missing?
 
Remember where you read that?
 
I flew 8.1 for my commercial, 2.0 were because I needed my night dual XC. Would have been done in 6.1 without it. I had rest of the required complex hours from my complex endorsement and a few rental checkrides. And this was in a plane (M20J) I had never even been in before. Took 4 days.
It's a fun rating to get.
 
Matt L said:
Remember where you read that?
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Was this in reply to me?
If so, I read it in the commercial pilot ACS (and the PTS before that). The plane you use for the checkride needs to be the same category and class (and type, if applicable) that you are applying for...

Perhaps there's a combined single/multi process I'm unaware of? If so, I'm interested to know more.
 
\__[Ô]__/ said:
Was this in reply to me?
If so, I read it in the commercial pilot ACS (and the PTS before that). The plane you use for the checkride needs to be the same category and class (and type, if applicable) that you are applying for...
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If you already have your multi commercial (assuming the multi was complex), you can do your single add-on in a non-complex. You can also use two planes for your single commercial - do first flight for the maneuvers in the non-complex plane, then just do the landings in a complex.
 
mtuomi said:
If you already have your multi commercial (assuming the multi was complex), you can do your single add-on in a non-complex. You can also use two planes for your single commercial - do first flight for the maneuvers in the non-complex plane, then just do the landings in a complex.
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I'm aware of both of those scenarios.
The first (already having multi commercial) is not what was described.

For the second, I know people do the checkride in two planes. However, I'm unaware of any exception that allows one of those planes to be of a different category and class than you're applying for (what was described). That's what I'm curious about.
 
\__[Ô]__/ said:
I'm aware of both of those scenarios.
The first (already having multi commercial) is not what was described.

For the second, I know people do the checkride in two planes. However, I'm unaware of any exception that allows one of those planes to be of a different category and class than you're applying for (what was described). That's what I'm curious about.
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Maybe the DPE used common sense and did the CP-AMEL first, then added ASEL, even though the rides were done the other way around?
OP knows what happened, hope he'll shed some light.
 
That was my assumption as to what happened (and I'd argue it shows a lack of common sense by the DPE) until the poster said he saved money and time the way he did it.

There are significant differences between doing ASEL then AMEL vs. AMEL then ASEL.
The AMEL then ASEL route tends to be the more expensive route, sometimes by quite a bit.
If there is a way to somehow do the ASEL first while using the AMEL to count for the complex part, that would be of interest to people I know. That's why I'm asking.
 
I don't remember the exact process of the paper work but the DPE was ok with completing both rides in the same day. I did complete the SEL maneuvers first after the commercial oral, then we took a break and then started on the multi engine oral and flight. This was in 2012, so not sure if any PTS/ACS information has changed.
This process allowed me to skip trying to find and rent a SEL complex airplane and waste time flying a SE, which saved me some time and money.
 
mtuomi said:
Maybe the DPE used common sense and did the CP-AMEL first, then added ASEL, even though the rides were done the other way around?
OP knows what happened, hope he'll shed some light.
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Yes could be, I'm not sure of the paper work process.
 
Regardless of the paperwork, there's different charts of required items depending on which "direction" you're going. Example: Commercial maneuvers, not done in the multi... but done in the single... stuff like that.

(I did mine multi then single so I could use my own 182 for the single add-on.)
 
CC268, I do some instruction here in the phoenix area. Would be happy to talk with you about rates and schedules if you are interested. You are a fellow HW guy correct?
 
bijanmaleki said:
CC268, I do some instruction here in the phoenix area. Would be happy to talk with you about rates and schedules if you are interested. You are a fellow HW guy correct?
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Hey Bijan! Fellow HW guy here...we talked a bit in the PoA chat. As of now I have an instructor lined up for the Instrument rating, but I won't be starting the flying (already completed the written) until it cools off a bit (September or October I am thinking). However, if something falls through I will definitely keep you in mind and certainly for commercial as well. I will keep you in the loop - thanks!
 
Pm me on here or skype, same name. And in the meantime, we have a few good friends that do a little fun flying around here if you want to join in some breakfast runs or whatnot. M. Strieby up there at dvt has a mooney and is a good guy.

Also have you looked at the company reimbursement program, have a few friends involved. Cirino is the man to talk to up there about it.
 
Before the re-write, you use to be able to do the multi first with just the 10 hrs in a multi. Then they put in the dual cross country's and made you meet all the training requirement in the multi. That made it cost prohibitive to do it that way.

Bob
 
bijanmaleki said:
Pm me on here or skype, same name. And in the meantime, we have a few good friends that do a little fun flying around here if you want to join in some breakfast runs or whatnot. M. Strieby up there at dvt has a mooney and is a good guy.

Also have you looked at the company reimbursement program, have a few friends involved. Cirino is the man to talk to up there about it.
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PM'd
 
unsafervguy said:
Before the re-write, you use to be able to do the multi first with just the 10 hrs in a multi. Then they put in the dual cross country's and made you meet all the training requirement in the multi. That made it cost prohibitive to do it that way.

Bob
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Unless of course you need the hours anyway for career purposes. In fact schools like Embry Riddle do the commercial multi first, and add on the single if at all. This leaves both their students and instructors with more multi time on the way to an airline job...


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unsafervguy said:
Before the re-write, you use to be able to do the multi first with just the 10 hrs in a multi. Then they put in the dual cross country's and made you meet all the training requirement in the multi. That made it cost prohibitive to do it that way.

Bob
Click to expand...

It did, but I still did it that way. The typical weekend multi-add on seemed like a really bad idea for someone who eventually wanted to teach. Or maybe someday buy a multi. Not enough PIC time.

gsengle said:
Unless of course you need the hours anyway for career purposes. In fact schools like Embry Riddle do the commercial multi first, and add on the single if at all. This leaves both their students and instructors with more multi time on the way to an airline job...
Click to expand...

Which as someone else has pointed out doesn't matter much in today's hiring frenzy but used to matter a lot.

But I knew someone in the 90s who bought a multi, went from zero through all ratings in it, and then on to the airlines and never flew a single ever.

All just depends on what you want to do. I don't mind the price tag and the extra multi hours in the logbook at all. Probably won't actually help me do jack squat with it for a while, but they're still in the book. I wouldn't have felt proficient as an "older pilot" (damn, did I just write that) at one of the weekender multi courses. It would have felt a lot more like "barely passed with a rubber stamp" that way.

Plus we did one of the XCs as half day and half night and that was a nice intro to how "comforting" having a second mill turning out there is at night. Almost a third of my flight time is at night anyway, and I'm not particularly "scared" of flying singles at night... but there was a different feel cruising along in the multi in the dark on a completely overcast night with no moon a long way from home. Subtle, but it's there.
 
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