commercial pilot privileges

Archimago

Archimago

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Archimago
Looking at 61.133
(a) Privileges -

(1) General. A person who holds a commercial pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft -

(i) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire, provided the person is qualified in accordance with this part and with the applicable parts of this chapter that apply to the operation; and

(ii) For compensation or hire, provided the person is qualified in accordance with this part and with the applicable parts of this chapter that apply to the operation.

The question I have has to do with qualifications. I know that I can't legally fly a 747 or anything above 12,500lbs or a turboprop. Lets say all of my experience (flight hours) is in Cessna, Piper, and Grumman AA5 airframes. Can I legally fly a Diamond DA 40 for example... Lets say I was hired to ferry an unfamiliar airframe for example.
Just to be clear... I wouldn't do that without training and I also realize that I probably wouldn't be insured either.... I guess I am looking for what I can legally fly and hopefully someone can point me to specific regs I could use to backup up..

Or if you think I am being a bit lazy... If I get a nudge in the right direction of where to find the answer, I would be much appreciated.
Working towards commercial rating,
Thanks!
 
Why can’t you fly a turboprop, as long as you have the endorsements as required, high performance or whatever else

You can fly anything you’re rated on, commercial single multi engine land, etc, unless it’s a SFAR aircraft, in my case that’s a robinson, think fixed wing people might have one or two like the MU2.

If you’re a CSEL, and you never touched a 182 before, you could ferry one never having sat in the thing before, insurance and owners might have other requirements
 
Larry in TN said:
Take a look at 14 CFR 119.1 and where it leads.
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Thanks for the pointer. I do need to review that part for sure.
It seems like part 119 does not deal with part 91 operations such as aerial photography, ag, banner towing, ferrying ops etc when not holding out. So, for example say;

An acquittance of yours approaches you to fly him and his Beechcraft Bonanza to another airport for maintenance. You have a commercial license/ single engine land. You have a complex endorsement (say all of your hours were in a 172RG). I am assuming that you can legally take that flight and charge your friend for the service even if it wouldn't be prudent to do so. Is there something in part 91 that says that I can or can't
 
BladeSlap said:
Why can’t you fly a turboprop, as long as you have the endorsements as required, high performance or whatever else

You can fly anything you’re rated on, commercial single multi engine land, etc, unless it’s a SFAR aircraft, in my case that’s a robinson, think fixed wing people might have one or two like the MU2.

If you’re a CSEL, and you never touched a 182 before, you could ferry one never having sat in the thing before, insurance and owners might have other requirements
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That is my thought as well, just wondering if a DPE asked me to point to the reg that supports that, where would I look?
 
Archimago said:
That is my thought as well, just wondering if a DPE asked me to point to the reg that supports that, where would I look?
Click to expand...


§61.133 Commercial pilot privileges and limitations.

(a) Privileges.

(1) General. A person who holds a commercial pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft—

(i) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire, provided the person is qualified in accordance with this part and with the applicable parts of this chapter that apply to the operation; and…


But no 121/135
 
Just my 2 cents, the DPE is looking to make sure you're not going to do something stupid, ie in violation of the regs, as a commercial pilot for hire. So if asked what you can do, I'd say all the things you already know - banner tow, instructing once you have your CFI, pipeline patrol, photography, and scenic working for a company that does that. Any scenarios for moving a person from one spot to another, for whatever reason, it's a pro-rated share just like private pilot. There's always some sort of hand waving attempt around that, but safe bet is just no. Moving an aircraft, no people in it, no cargo, sure. If there's anything that winds up the air carriers, er I mean the FAA, it's ad-hoc charters. Anything that looks or sounds like that is a no.

I'm just some person on the Internet, take the above for whatever it's worth.
 
Albany Tom said:
Just my 2 cents, the DPE is looking to make sure you're not going to do something stupid, ie in violation of the regs, as a commercial pilot for hire. So if asked what you can do, I'd say all the things you already know - banner tow, instructing once you have your CFI, pipeline patrol, photography, and scenic working for a company that does that. Any scenarios for moving a person from one spot to another, for whatever reason, it's a pro-rated share just like private pilot. There's always some sort of hand waving attempt around that, but safe bet is just no. Moving an aircraft, no people in it, no cargo, sure. If there's anything that winds up the air carriers, er I mean the FAA, it's ad-hoc charters. Anything that looks or sounds like that is a no.

I'm just some person on the Internet, take the above for whatever it's worth.
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I appreciate the response and I think you are right that I am probably overthinking it. So if I am not holding out, and someone approaches me to fly both them and their plane to some other airport for full compensation, that would be allowed, and I could do that in any single engine land airplane under 12500 (except taildragger and high performance as I don't have those endorsements).
 
Archimago said:
I appreciate the response and I think you are right that I am probably overthinking it. So if I am not holding out, and someone approaches me to fly both them and their plane to some other airport for full compensation, that would be allowed, and I could do that in any single engine land airplane under 12500 (except taildragger and high performance as I don't have those endorsements).
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Notwithstanding the insurability, absolutely correct and legal, and in fact it happens all the time. Lots of ferrying of aircraft around where the pilot has not flown that EXACT model of airplane before.

Because really, where's the line? What seems reasonable to you may or may not to someone else.

I was asked a couple of years ago if I could ferry a Tomahawk (PA-38). Now, I've never flown one before. But I've flown enough other airplanes of similar size and performance, and I can read the POH, and do some other things to make me feel comfortable. (The flight ended up not happening for other reasons.)

What about if you're asked to fly a BE-33, but you only have BE-35 time? Heck, some of those models are WAY more similar than comparing an early Bonanza vs a later-model Bonanza, especially when it comes to switchwork inside.

Yes, training is important and valuable, but sometimes we can really overthink things. If you can fly a 172N, you can probably figure out a 172P on your own.

The insurers really love to overthink things. Years ago I was disapproved to be added to a policy on a G36 Bonanza. I had adequate time in the A36, and adequate time with the G1000, but zero actual "G36" time, which is what the insurer required.
 
RussR said:
The insurers really love to overthink things. Years ago I was disapproved to be added to a policy on a G36 Bonanza. I had adequate time in the A36, and adequate time with the G1000, but zero actual "G36" time, which is what the insurer required.
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...and sometimes they underthink. A friend was trying to get me listed as an approved pilot in his Ovation. Yeah, I had decent C and J time as well as time in airplanes with similar performance, but I know how different the Ovation is and I would have required at least a 2 hour checkout. "Good to go" with zero time in type, said the underwriter.
 
Albany Tom said:
Just my 2 cents, the DPE is looking to make sure you're not going to do something stupid, ie in violation of the regs, as a commercial pilot for hire. So if asked what you can do, I'd say all the things you already know - banner tow, instructing once you have your CFI, pipeline patrol, photography, and scenic working for a company that does that.
Click to expand...
Keeping in mind that some of these still require additional authorizations/waivers. They just don’t fall under Part 119.

Any scenarios for moving a person from one spot to another, for whatever reason, it's a pro-rated share just like private pilot. There's always some sort of hand waving attempt around that, but safe bet is just no.
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That’s only if you’re providing the airplane. You can be hired to fly passengers or cargo in the employer’s airplane no problem.
 
Archimago said:
Thanks for the pointer. I do need to review that part for sure.
It seems like part 119 does not deal with part 91 operations such as aerial photography, ag, banner towing, ferrying ops etc when not holding out.
Click to expand...
You said you just needed to be pointed in the right direction. 119.1 leads you to 121.1, 125.1, & 135.1 (the x.1 section is usually applicability or definitions). All together, they have a bunch of situations where more than just a CPL is needed.

You won't find anything (much?) that tells you what you CAN do. The regulations will mostly tell you what you CAN NOT do.

As a commercial pilot, you can be hired to fly someone else's airplane. For most GA airplanes, no type-specific training is required. If you're legal to fly the airplane, you're legal to be hired to fly the airplane.

As a CPL, you get to decide if you can fly the DA-40 or BE-33 without any additional training. You decide what preparation you need. You might ask the owner/employer to take the airplane out by yourself for a familiarization flight prior to you flying his passengers. Back in 1990 I did some pilot service flights in a Seneca. I had time in C-310s, Seminoles, and C-402. I studied the Seneca POH and sat in the airplane reviewing procedures before the day of my first flight. Same with a C-414, which is basically a C-402, which I had significant recent time flying, with pressurization.

For the few months I was doing freelance pilot service I would make note cards on each airplane with weights, speeds, and any unique procedures. I'd review those before a flight to make sure I knew what I needed to know to fly that airplane.
 
Larry in TN said:
As a CPL, you get to decide if you can fly the DA-40 or BE-33 without any additional training. You decide what preparation you need. You might ask the owner/employer to take the airplane out by yourself for a familiarization flight prior to you flying his passengers. Back in 1990 I did some pilot service flights in a Seneca. I had time in C-310s, Seminoles, and C-402. I studied the Seneca POH and sat in the airplane reviewing procedures before the day of my first flight. Same with a C-414, which is basically a C-402, which I had significant recent time flying, with pressurization.
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One of the advantages of learning to fly “airplanes” rather than just learning to fly the Bugsmasher 2000 with the Lycinental O-320D2S3-5 engine.

Also one of the reasons that you need to be able to “read” and “understand” the English language.
 
Of course you can fly a 747, you just need a multi-engine, a type rating, and a whole lot of money. You don't even need a commercial certificate. I think what you meant is that you can't jump in and start flying for the airlines. FWIW, a type rating in a 737 is about $10,000. The first time you fly an actual 737 is during the checkride. https://www.avweb.com/flight-safety/737-typed-a-ga-pilot-goes-for-a-boeing-737-type-rating/

As far as the rest, again, the commercial has nothing to do with them. If it's over 200 hp, you need a high performance endorsement and if it's retractable, constant speed prop, and has flaps, you need a complex endorsement.
 
bflynn said:
The first time you fly an actual 737 is during the checkride.
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The first time I flew a 737 there were 126 paying passenger in the back on their way to St. Martin for vacation!

The checkride is in the simulator, as long as the simulator is sufficiently advanced (Level C or greater). With a checkride in a Level B sim you have to go out and do three takeoffs and landings in the airplane.
 
Larry in TN said:
The first time I flew a 737 there were 126 paying passenger in the back on their way to St. Martin for vacation!

The checkride is in the simulator, as long as the simulator is sufficiently advanced (Level C or greater). With a checkride in a Level B sim you have to go out and do three takeoffs and landings in the airplane.
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More than likely doing the checkride in the airplane per the article was to avoid an SOE Limitation on the type.
 
The prices have a great deal of range to them. I've read 5k to 50k, depending on who you talk to. The main point is, it isn't impossible.
 
Larry in TN said:
As a commercial pilot, you can be hired to fly someone else's airplane. For most GA airplanes, no type-specific training is required. If you're legal to fly the airplane, you're legal to be hired to fly the airplane.

As a CPL, you get to decide if you can fly the DA-40 or BE-33 without any additional training. You decide what preparation you need.
Click to expand...
Thank you! I need to go through the regs a little more.
 
Archimago said:
Thank you! I need to go through the regs a little more.
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Remember that not everything is the subject of a regulation. You won't find a Part 61 or 91 reg saying that you either do or do not need a checkout (not a regulatory term at all) or a certain time in type in an aircraft you are rated for. Silence is golden.

(There is a minimum time in type requirement for instructing in a multi, which pretty much illustrates the absence elsewhere.)
 
Sometimes when answering a question, less is more. The DPE for my commercial checkride asked what privileges the commercial certificate gives. I told him “people can pay me to fly their planes.” He said “okay, let’s move on.”
 
Larry in TN said:
The first time I flew a 737 there were 126 paying passenger in the back on their way to St. Martin for vacation!

The checkride is in the simulator, as long as the simulator is sufficiently advanced (Level C or greater). With a checkride in a Level B sim you have to go out and do three takeoffs and landings in the airplane.
Click to expand...
first time I flew a 767....I rolled it....and no one died and no metal was bent. :D
 
Archimago said:
Thank you! I need to go through the regs a little more.
Click to expand...
That's a big part of becoming a CPL and it's really not that hard. Both the regulations and the AIM.

Look for things that you do when flying but don't know why you do them then reference the FARs and AIM to see if you can figure it out. You'll be surprised out how much of what you do you do because that's what your CFI told you to do.

Here are some to get you started. A correct answer isn't enough, you need to find the source.

1. When remaining in the pattern, when should you start your turn to Crosswind?

2. When filing random RNAV routes for an IFR flight, when should you include intermediate waypoints?

3. What do the regulations require regarding traffic patterns when approaching to land at airports in Class G, E, D, C, & B airspace?

This type of study will also give you a head start on CFI training after your CPL.
 
Larry in TN said:
That's a big part of becoming a CPL and it's really not that hard. Both the regulations and the AIM.

Look for things that you do when flying but don't know why you do them then reference the FARs and AIM to see if you can figure it out. You'll be surprised out how much of what you do you do because that's what your CFI told you to do.

Here are some to get you started. A correct answer isn't enough, you need to find the source.

1. When remaining in the pattern, when should you start your turn to Crosswind?

2. When filing random RNAV routes for an IFR flight, when should you include intermediate waypoints?

3. What do the regulations require regarding traffic patterns when approaching to land at airports in Class G, E, D, C, & B airspace?

This type of study will also give you a head start on CFI training after your CPL.
Click to expand...
thanks! that's a good start.
 
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