Commercial long cross country woes

benyflyguy

benyflyguy

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benyflyguy
Why does it seem tricky to get this long XC figured out. Based at KHZL. I have to pick up a friend at KYNG next week and bring him back to KHZL. No compensation. Just being a nice guy. So I figure I’ll make trip out solo and do long XC with a bit of jumping around
Plans that went to pot
1) KHZL to 1N7 to KMPO then KYNG. I thought I’d fly out to Blairstown restaurant and get take out for flight for bfast. Land at Pocono pick up an IFR clearance and head out. Sounds great?! Nope. Longest leg not 250. Arg!
2) switcharoo-KHZL to KMPO to 1N7 then KYNG. Still get take out at blairstown. Then the long leg is 304. Great! But wait. It’s not 250 from my starting point.

Plus I don’t think I’m allowed to shut down during the long XC to pick up take out right???
I might just need to fly out for fun to 1N7 and make that my starting point(that way I can get take out from donna’s for bfast). Hit KMPO on way to KYNG and someplace else on my way out.
It’s not cheap to do this flight so you want to make sure you get it right.
It’s frustrating to make this right. I did one already to learn that I messed up one part. >250 from STARTING point.
 
hhmmm, I thought it was pretty easy and self explanatory. and sure u can stop.
 
benyflyguy said:
Why does it seem tricky to get this long XC figured out. Based at KHZL. I have to pick up a friend at KYNG next week and bring him back to KHZL. No compensation. Just being a nice guy. So I figure I’ll make trip out solo and do long XC with a bit of jumping around
Plans that went to pot
1) KHZL to 1N7 to KMPO then KYNG. I thought I’d fly out to Blairstown restaurant and get take out for flight for bfast. Land at Pocono pick up an IFR clearance and head out. Sounds great?! Nope. Longest leg not 250. Arg!
2) switcharoo-KHZL to KMPO to 1N7 then KYNG. Still get take out at blairstown. Then the long leg is 304. Great! But wait. It’s not 250 from my starting point.

Plus I don’t think I’m allowed to shut down during the long XC to pick up take out right???
I might just need to fly out for fun to 1N7 and make that my starting point(that way I can get take out from donna’s for bfast). Hit KMPO on way to KYNG and someplace else on my way out.
It’s not cheap to do this flight so you want to make sure you get it right.
It’s frustrating to make this right. I did one already to learn that I messed up one part. >250 from STARTING point.
Click to expand...

It also has to be 300nm total.

It seems tricky because you can't legally count any of the return trip due to the passenger.
 
Are you Part 61 or 141? The requirement is a little different.

I did mine recently. Even though I am Part 141 I made sure my flight also qualified for 61 just in case.
 
eman1200 said:
hhmmm, I thought it was pretty easy and self explanatory. and sure u can stop.
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I was under impression that I don’t shut down. But I guess some planes you might have to do that is probably not a big deal.
dmspilot said:
It also has to be 300nm total.

It seems tricky because you can't legally count any of the return trip due to the passenger.
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That’s true and I realize that that’s why I need to make trip out count for the whole thing. Just trying to take advantage of the opportunity to fly further away from home. I have a flight to pick up a puppy for a friend fall through that would have made it easy.
RingLaserGyroSandwich said:
Are you Part 61 or 141? The requirement is a little different.

I did mine recently. Even though I am Part 141 I made sure my flight also qualified for 61 just in case.
Click to expand...
I’m part 61.

I think the best way to make this work is pick a destination west of KYNG to make the legs work better. That might work better. Lemme play
 
Did mine Denton to Tyler to Galveston back to Denton.

Totally took advantage of the good food options on the island. Especially since brunch at The Skyline was a bust (looking askance at @JCranford).

So yup, I shut down And caught an Uber
 
I think I figured it out. fly up to KAVP. Call that starting point. Then take off and land at KWBW off to KCAK and off to destination KYNG.
is exactly 301 nm. KWBW to KCAK is 255 nm.
Total trip will probably be a big longer as I will file for the long leg IFR to KCAK. Unless weather requires IFR the whole way that will work. If it requires IFR the whole way Will come up with different plan over the weekend.

So much for donnas for breakfast sigh...
 
Ugh. I’m getting more confused the more I read.

“10 hours of solo flight time or 10 hours with an instructor performing the duties of pilot in command that includes:
  • One solo cross country of at least 300 NM with full stop landings at a minimum of 3 points one of which is at least 250 NM from the starting point

  • So does the start and destination have to be at least 250nm or does one leg need to be at least 250nm. That’s where I’m getting hung up. The flight I planned works if one leg has to be >250. But not work if the start and destination have to >250???
 
benyflyguy said:
Ugh. I’m getting more confused the more I read.

“10 hours of solo flight time or 10 hours with an instructor performing the duties of pilot in command that includes:
  • One solo cross country of at least 300 NM with full stop landings at a minimum of 3 points one of which is at least 250 NM from the starting point

  • So does the start and destination have to be at least 250nm or does one leg need to be at least 250nm. That’s where I’m getting hung up. The flight I planned works if one leg has to be >250. But not work if the start and destination have to >250???
Click to expand...

One of your points has to be 250 NM from your origin point.
 
midwestpa24 said:
One of your points has to be 250 NM from your origin point.
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As I read more that seems like that is the key. This will work then. Hate to spend the dough on a trip and not have it count for anything more then fun!
 
Sure made that complicated. 250nm isn’t that far. Just pick somewhere and go. Make two stops on the way back. No rules on how long you stop for.
 
Why don’t you just fly to Cleveland Lakefront and then pick him up on the way back?
 
I have met my commercial cross country requirement, not only I had shut down, I didn’t start her back up until next AM. Not sure where you got the no shutdown requirement. Even in my PPL cross country I made it a point to grab breakfast and the engine wasn’t running at that time either
 
Nope stopping for food, but if you need the bathroom that is allowed.
 
Hey @benflyguy - do literally exactly what the reg says. Like a checklist. Don’t read into it ANYTHING else. LOL.

There ain’t no food mentioned in the FAR. LOL. Don’t make up stuff in ya noggin!

You could park for a week and fly back. It’s still a long XC. :)

To give a little WHY guidance, the entire point is to get you to go far far away where the airports and weather and stuff change.

I did most of mine... at night!!! Gasp!!!

(Helped with OTHER things I wanted in the logbook... and I was busy during the day once and the CFI was busy during another.)

Airplane, nor us, nor DPE checking the logbook later was Skeered! Airplanes weren’t afraid of the dark. ;)

Was a little worried I was sleepy on the way back from KRAP. Dinner was enormous.
 
technically were almost always on part of a commercial cross country if were flying solo LOL! We just don't normally fly 250nm away from our starting point.

I think what kind of sucks is I did way more than the mileage requirement on a trip out west...but had a non pilot passenger...damn isn't that the true spirit of a commercial...safely flying passengers over long distances and on longer legs

Knocked it out later on in a single day but can definitely have overnight stop as mentioned earlier.
 
Don’t put anything about the passenger in your logbook. Problem solved. (And if it’s truly a non-pilot passenger, that’s actually a _more_ challenging flight than a solo). More distractions, etc.
 
You're over thinking this as others have said. Here's what you can do to make it legal and easy.
1) Fly from HZL to 1N7. Log that as one line in your log book. "goin' to get grub" or something like that.
2) Next fly 1N7 -> 4N1 (new stop) -> KMPO -> KYNG. That flight get's it's own line in your log book. Checks all your boxes 318 total miles, 3 landings, 258 miles from your starting point to a point on your trip.
3) Fly back with passenger, log that as you will.

It is up to you on how you define and log a "flight".
 
Yes, you are definitely making this too complicated and reading stuff in the FARs that isn't there.

Disregarding the desire to stop for breakfast, it's simple. One of many possibilities:

HZL to 1G3 to 1G5 to YNG. https://skyvector.com/?ll=41.469897...54663&chart=301&zoom=7&fpl= KHZL 1G5 1G3 KYNG

Get out of the plane, eat, take a leak, get fuel, whatever you want to do, it doesn't matter. Log it all on one line is fine too.

Or you could switch around 1G3 and 1G5, or substitute another similarly placed airport. 1G5 is your furthest point away from HZL, and it's 262 nm away. Total trip length is 312 nm. Boom, you're done.
 
benyflyguy said:
I was under impression that I don’t shut down. But I guess some planes you might have to do that is probably not a big deal.
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Wrong impression. My long solo cross country included an overnight at a hotel after dinner and a beer.

As others said, you may be overcomplicating the simple, perhapssuffering from a mild bout of regulitis.

Regulitis. Disease which causes people of average or better intelligence to lose basic reading comprehension skills when looking at regulations. It is sometimes associated with the FAA-Anon movement whose followers believe all FARs have hidden meanings.​
 
midlifeflyer said:
Wrong impression. My long solo cross country included an overnight at a hotel after dinner and a beer.

As others said, you may be overcomplicating the simple, perhapssuffering from a mild bout of regulitis.

Regulitis. Disease which causes people of average or better intelligence to lose basic reading comprehension skills when looking at regulations. It is sometimes associated with the FAA-Anon movement whose followers believe all FARs have hidden meanings.​
Click to expand...

Objection! Speculation.
 
WannFly said:
I have met my commercial cross country requirement, not only I had shut down, I didn’t start her back up until next AM. Not sure where you got the no shutdown requirement. Even in my PPL cross country I made it a point to grab breakfast and the engine wasn’t running at that time either
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Same here. Colorado Pilots flyin to Devils Tower. Straight line going up. Stopped coming back the next day for breakfast in Torrington.
 
The flight I count for mine consisted of 11 legs, the longest of which was 78 nm. Total distance was 478 nm. The farthest landing from my starting point was 270 nm away. I shut down at every airport, some to get fuel, some to eat some of the picnic I had brought with, and all to get a stamp in my little book of my state's airports. I don't count the second day of the trip because it's not necessary, but I could have.

Your route KHZL-1N7-KMPO-KYNG doesn't quite qualify:
* Total distance: 305 nm >= 300 nm
* Number of full stop landings: 3 >= 3
* Farthest point of landing from point of origin (KHZL to KYNG): 213 nm < 250 nm

You just need to adjust your point of origin. Fly to 1N7, then start a new line in your logbook: 1N7-KMPO-KHZL-KYNG.

Or substitute literally any other airport for the westbound stop at your home airport KHZL, just for variety.
 
iamtheari said:
The flight I count for mine consisted of 11 legs, the longest of which was 78 nm. Total distance was 478 nm. The farthest landing from my starting point was 270 nm away. I shut down at every airport, some to get fuel, some to eat some of the picnic I had brought with, and all to get a stamp in my little book of my state's airports. I don't count the second day of the trip because it's not necessary, but I could have.

Your route KHZL-1N7-KMPO-KYNG doesn't quite qualify:
* Total distance: 305 nm >= 300 nm
* Number of full stop landings: 3 >= 3
* Farthest point of landing from point of origin (KHZL to KYNG): 213 nm < 250 nm

You just need to adjust your point of origin. Fly to 1N7, then start a new line in your logbook: 1N7-KMPO-KHZL-KYNG.

Or substitute literally any other airport for the westbound stop at your home airport KHZL, just for variety.
Click to expand...

Technically, I could have used an entire 20 stop, 4000nm+ trip I did.

9D9 = > HPT (fuel) => 7K8 => FSD (RON/fuel) => ECS (fuel) => BIL (RON/fuel) => GPI (FCA at the time, lunch) => COE (RON/fuel) => EAT (golf, RON) => SPB (RON/fuel) => MFR (lunch/fuel) => CXP (RON/fuel) => L06 => HII (RON/fuel) => BCE (lunch/fuel) => CEZ => FMN (RON/fuel) => BGD (fuel) => 1K4 (fuel) => OUN (RONx2) => K68 (fuel) => 3MY (RON, fuel) => 9D9

I only used one of the days out of that trip as the commercial. The DPE didn't recognize the identifiers, and got a laugh when he saw the length of it.
 
I find it super odd that you cannot count it if you have a non-pilot pax. just doesnt make any sense.
 
This XC was one of the random requirements I hadn't met when I decided to go ahead an get my commercial years ago. I had over 100 hours cross country, the longest of which was 800 NM, but none met every requirement. Either I wasn't solo, I didn't land at three points, etc. I took a day off work and just went and banged it out. At that point it wasn't difficult compared to other trips I had done, it was just an extra 4-5 hour trip for the logbook.

Same with the night, solo, takeoff and landings at a towered airport. In all of 1000+ landings in my logbook I only had 1 that met all the requirements. So I had to go one night to a towered airport and knock those out.
 
You're also over complicating this worrying about the exact timing and what happens in the flight. At your oral exam the examiner is (may) ask what your long XC was and you give him the route and move on.

Many aircraft (think C-152 with a "big guy" as a pilot) wouldn't be able to do that trip without shutting down to refuel, IMSAFE includes the pilot's wellbeing between bladder, food and water as part of the emotion,fatigue, and stress components.

When you get to oral exam answer the question that is asked, not the one you imagine. When you fly, fly the reg that is written not the one someone told you about.
 
WannFly said:
I find it super odd that you cannot count it if you have a non-pilot pax. just doesnt make any sense.
Click to expand...

Yes it is odd, and it makes no sense. Can one interpret a solo flight as one that is not dual?
 
airheadpenguin said:
Do you actually log "SOLO" next to flights where you're the sole occupant??? I know I don't
Click to expand...
i do, at times, just for the heck of it. but i wonder what the reasoning behind this rule is
 
airheadpenguin said:
Do you actually log "SOLO" next to flights where you're the sole occupant??? I know I don't
Click to expand...

There are some logbooks that have a "solo" column, but it is pretty rare. The intent of the rule to fly solo for commercial is unclear to me.
 
WannFly said:
I find it super odd that you cannot count it if you have a non-pilot pax. just doesnt make any sense.
Click to expand...

I'm not saying I necessarily agree with the requirement. But, if you consider that the likely intent is for somebody to complete a longer flight by themselves, without assistance, it makes sense. Just because someone isn't a pilot doesn't mean they couldn't be very helpful. I know non-pilots who can do all the navigating, communicating, looking out for traffic, all that stuff just as well as any pilot. Basically the pilot in these situations could just be a meat-servo for the passenger's instructions. Heck, if they had an autopilot, the pilot could literally do nothing other than takeoff and land for the whole flight. Hence, the only way to make sure they're not getting help is to not have anyone else on board.

sarangan said:
Yes it is odd, and it makes no sense. Can one interpret a solo flight as one that is not dual?
Click to expand...

No, a solo flight is one that is "solo" - "alone". There was a time decades ago (like the 40's), where "solo" just meant "non-dual received" (I found it in an old FAR once), but that is not the case now. It means "sole occupant".

airheadpenguin said:
Do you actually log "SOLO" next to flights where you're the sole occupant??? I know I don't
Click to expand...

You can, and should for the flights you need to meet the experience requirements of 61.129 for a commercial certificate. Some logbooks have a column for this, most electronic logbooks can handle this easily as well.
 
airheadpenguin said:
Do you actually log "SOLO" next to flights where you're the sole occupant??? I know I don't
Click to expand...

only if I know it's for a rating, like commercial. otherwise I'm mostly the opposite, I won't specify 'solo' but I may specify "local flight with 3 strippers, maintained at or above 5280' "
 
Tossing this into the mix regarding XC time....

 
RussR said:
I'm not saying I necessarily agree with the requirement. But, if you consider that the likely intent is for somebody to complete a longer flight by themselves, without assistance, it makes sense. Just because someone isn't a pilot doesn't mean they couldn't be very helpful. I know non-pilots who can do all the navigating, communicating, looking out for traffic, all that stuff just as well as any pilot. Basically the pilot in these situations could just be a meat-servo for the passenger's instructions. Heck, if they had an autopilot, the pilot could literally do nothing other than takeoff and land for the whole flight. Hence, the only way to make sure they're not getting help is to not have anyone else on board.
Click to expand...
Without the solo requirement, you could make these flights with a plane full of CFI's to help you, even to fly all of the actual cross-country mileage for you, as long as you acted as PIC and didn't receive instruction. I don't know if their intent was to eliminate this loophole by requiring the flight be made solo, but that is one of the effects.
 
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