Commercial checkride on a non-complex A/C.

[amoel]

Hello guys,

Yesterday I flew, for the first time ever, in a non-Cirrus aircraft. After logging a total of 260 hours in Cirrus, and getting my PPL and IR, I wanted to fly a different airplane and possibly get my Commercial Rating going. So I got IFR current flying a complex (Arrow) with a CFII for 2.1 hours.

I have a couple of questions or asking for advice:

1.- First, a few months ago I flew from MYF to HND, and two days later I flew from HND to U08 and then back to MYF. This is a total of 500+ NM trip, where I was solo and the distance from U08 to MY is about 260 NM. Does this count as my solo 300+ NM trip although I did not fly it the SAME DAY?

2.- I am considering doing my checkride in two airplanes, Arrow for the complex part and Cirrus for the maneuvers... is this possible? advisable? I am considering this because I feel way more proficient in the Cirrus (non-complex).

Thank you!

 

[brcase]

Hello guys,

Yesterday I flew, for the first time ever, in a non-Cirrus aircraft. After logging a total of 260 hours in Cirrus, and getting my PPL and IR, I wanted to fly a different airplane and possibly get my Commercial Rating going. So I got IFR current flying a complex (Arrow) with a CFII for 2.1 hours.

I have a couple of questions or asking for advice:

1.- First, a few months ago I flew from MYF to HND, and two days later I flew from HND to U08 and then back to MYF. This is a total of 500+ NM trip, where I was solo and the distance from U08 to MY is about 260 NM. Does this count as my solo 300+ NM trip although I did not fly it the SAME DAY?

Yes, it doesn't matter that you took two days to do it.

2.- I am considering doing my checkride in two airplanes, Arrow for the complex part and Cirrus for the maneuvers... is this possible? advisable? I am considering this because I feel way more proficient in the Cirrus (non-complex).

Definitely possible, up to you and your instructor to determine if it is what will work best for your situation

Thank you!

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

 

[Gucci Pilot]

1. Flight counts

2. Totally doable. Talk to your CFI. If you can do the maneuvers better in the Cirrus I don't see why you shouldn't do them in the Cirrus.

 

[MAKG1]

1. Flight counts

2. Totally doable. Talk to your CFI. If you can do the maneuvers better in the Cirrus I don't see why you shouldn't do them in the Cirrus.

It's rather obviously allowable.

But, I'd be concerned about what you're saying to the DPE between the lines. A commercial certificate says that you are competent to fly any single engine land airplane under 12,500 lb (with a couple of exceptions) for hire with no further interaction with the FAA. Substituting another airplane because you're better at it says something quite different.

 

[jordane93]

1. Yes you can log it
2. The Arrow is a really easy plane to fly. The transition shouldn't be an issue. Talk with your CFI and work up a game plan.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Hello guys,

Yesterday I flew, for the first time ever, in a non-Cirrus aircraft. After logging a total of 260 hours in Cirrus, and getting my PPL and IR, I wanted to fly a different airplane and possibly get my Commercial Rating going. So I got IFR current flying a complex (Arrow) with a CFII for 2.1 hours.

I have a couple of questions or asking for advice:

1.- First, a few months ago I flew from MYF to HND, and two days later I flew from HND to U08 and then back to MYF. This is a total of 500+ NM trip, where I was solo and the distance from U08 to MY is about 260 NM. Does this count as my solo 300+ NM trip although I did not fly it the SAME DAY?

As Gucci said, yes. The FAA's position is, in essence, that unless you are being completely absurd, the determination of when a flight starts and ends is pretty much up to you. My commercial solo cross country covered 2 days.

2.- I am considering doing my checkride in two airplanes, Arrow for the complex part and Cirrus for the maneuvers... is this possible? advisable? I am considering this because I feel way more proficient in the Cirrus (non-complex).
[/QUOTE]
Yes. Only the takeoff and landing portion needs to be done in a complex aircraft.

 

[Witmo]

It's rather obviously allowable.

But, I'd be concerned about what you're saying to the DPE between the lines. A commercial certificate says that you are competent to fly any single engine land airplane under 12,500 lb (with a couple of exceptions) for hire with no further interaction with the FAA. Substituting another airplane because you're better at it says something quite different.

I would doubt any DPE would read anything between the lines. There was a time when you could get your commercial entirely in a Cessna 150 and many still believe the requirement to demonstrate you can put the gear up and down or move a prop lever is superfluous. I agree.

 

[James331]

Your flights good.

Just do the whole ride in the complex, you're just making things more complicated doing the ride between two planes, the maneuvers ain't that tuff, it's a simple ride, don't complicate it.

 

[Henning]

The answer to both is yes assuming the XC is in the Arrow, a two day trip out and back is fine.

 

[bgdriveway]

I did my commercial in a 172D and a 172RG. The examiner didn't even bat an eye.

 

[Brad Z]

Remember you need tens hours of complex time. Might as well use that time to perfect the maneuvers in the Arrow.

 

[SkyDog58]

You actually got to 260 hours without flying anything but a Cirrus? I know of no one who has more than 100 hours who has not flown several different makes & models.

NOTE: This is not an anti Cirrus post. I am just a bit perplexed that any pilot would not want to fly different aircraft.

 

[mondtster]

You actually got to 260 hours without flying anything but a Cirrus? I know of no one who has more than 100 hours who has not flown several different makes & models.

It's easy to get stuck in a rut if you own the airplane. I know I haven't sought out much in the way or rentals after I bought my own. (That doesn't mean I haven't flown a number of different airplanes though :wink2: )

That said, I'd suggest the OP using this opportunity as a way to expand their flight experience. Do the entire flight training and checkride in the Arrow. They're easy to fly, and I'd be surprised if any reasonably competent pilot took more than a few hours to figure it out.

OP, unless you're doing the checkride at your home base think of the logistics and cost of repositioning two airplanes for a checkride. That alone would motivate me to use just one airplane. But, as others have said, you can definitely take the checkride using two airplanes if that is what you really want to do.

 

[EdFred]

IF you've got the time in your Cirrus, and have command of that aircraft, don't waste money on renting the Arrow other than for the minimum hours. Did my commercial in a Cherokee 180 and a Sierra, because like you I had 245 hours in my PA-28 (and 25 in 3 others) and had all the commercial maneuvers down cold in that. I used the Sierra to show that I knew how to adjust the prop and raise and lower the gear. The DPE didn't question it at all, and it wasn't an issue for the ride. I actually had to fly my airplane to the airport that the check ride (and other airplane) was at, so there was no logistical issues.

Doing the check ride on a 20G35 day with moderate to heavy turbulence was however an issue.

 

[Lance F]

The IACRA form has entries for two different aircraft to be used in the flight portion of the practical. Must be a reason for that. Use both airplanes, save some money and fly the maneuvers in the plane you're most comfortable in. The DPE will prefer spending more time in a Cirrus than an old rental Arrow.

 

[Yeti Niner Five]

Your flights good.

Just do the whole ride in the complex, you're just making things more complicated doing the ride between two planes, the maneuvers ain't that tuff, it's a simple ride, don't complicate it.

Echo this. I asked my commercial DPE about doing maneuvers in the Citabria and was told, "The commercial checkride is so short, it's not worth the time." I ended up doing the whole ride in the Arrow. Not a big deal.

 

[Henning]

You actually got to 260 hours without flying anything but a Cirrus? I know of no one who has more than 100 hours who has not flown several different makes & models.

NOTE: This is not an anti Cirrus post. I am just a bit perplexed that any pilot would not want to fly different aircraft.

The parachute is the typical answer. I know several people now who have only had Cirrus aircraft and started training in them day one; because of the chute. That provided them the margin of comfort and confidence to pursue GA. I can't rightly say I blame them. I can't afford one though so I stick to twins or just accept the risk in whatever single. I'm not too fussed about dying.

 

[amoel]

Thank you ALL very very much for your comments and advice.

Yes, it is weird I have only flown Cirrus, I think it was a mistake to learn to fly in such an expensive and fast airplane, but that is the route I took... and then it was inertia, I only knew how to fly that airplane so I never flew any other thing and so on... Now I am happy to have flown the Arrow! I must confess it felt like flying partial panel the whole time, got so used to the glass in the cockpit and it took me at least 30 minutes of flying to get the hang of it, but was super fun.

I agree with all the answers regarding not complicating an easy thing and just use the remaining 7.9 hours I need in the complex to practice the maneuvers in the Arrow and complete the whole thing in that airplane (for all the reasons stated above).

Again, thank you very much for all your replies!

AM.

 

[Henning]

It's easy to get stuck in a rut if you own the airplane. I know I haven't sought out much in the way or rentals after I bought my own. (That doesn't mean I haven't flown a number of different airplanes though :wink2: )

That said, I'd suggest the OP using this opportunity as a way to expand their flight experience. Do the entire flight training and checkride in the Arrow. They're easy to fly, and I'd be surprised if any reasonably competent pilot took more than a few hours to figure it out.

OP, unless you're doing the checkride at your home base think of the logistics and cost of repositioning two airplanes for a checkride. That alone would motivate me to use just one airplane. But, as others have said, you can definitely take the checkride using two airplanes if that is what you really want to do.

If he intends to go back and keep flying the Cirrus after the rating, I would suggest he train the maneuvers to proficiency in both and when it comes to the ride itself, do it all in the Arrow. I don't really see the point in swapping planes mid ride. Like you said, the Arrow is not difficult, probably the majority of guys flying now earned their commercial in a PA-28-R. It will add no great effort to get the commercial maneuvers in the Arrow in addition to the Cirrus, and gives him a wider range of direct comparison between the planes.

Most people who are swapping to a fixed gear plane are doing so to save money. If you are in a unique situation where you are operating a Cirrus cheaper than an Arrow, then by all means, swap mid ride. That's not typical so that's not what I based my statement on.

Now, there is another option open to you that would broaden your experience even further. The Seminole is a twin engine trainer that is an Arrow with two engines, flies the same as to what you're used to. What you can do is your initial Commercial check ride as Multi Engine and fulfill the retract requirements, and then you can get into the Cirrus and add on the SE to your Commercial.

 

[jordane93]

Thank you ALL very very much for your comments and advice.

Yes, it is weird I have only flown Cirrus, I think it was a mistake to learn to fly in such an expensive and fast airplane, but that is the route I took... and then it was inertia, I only knew how to fly that airplane so I never flew any other thing and so on... Now I am happy to have flown the Arrow! I must confess it felt like flying partial panel the whole time, got so used to the glass in the cockpit and it took me at least 30 minutes of flying to get the hang of it, but was super fun.

I agree with all the answers regarding not complicating an easy thing and just use the remaining 7.9 hours I need in the complex to practice the maneuvers in the Arrow and complete the whole thing in that airplane (for all the reasons stated above).

Again, thank you very much for all your replies!

AM.

Nothing wrong with flying a Cirrus. Good luck on your commercial! It's one of the easier rides.

 

[Henning]

Thank you ALL very very much for your comments and advice.

Yes, it is weird I have only flown Cirrus, I think it was a mistake to learn to fly in such an expensive and fast airplane, but that is the route I took... and then it was inertia, I only knew how to fly that airplane so I never flew any other thing and so on... Now I am happy to have flown the Arrow! I must confess it felt like flying partial panel the whole time, got so used to the glass in the cockpit and it took me at least 30 minutes of flying to get the hang of it, but was super fun.

I agree with all the answers regarding not complicating an easy thing and just use the remaining 7.9 hours I need in the complex to practice the maneuvers in the Arrow and complete the whole thing in that airplane (for all the reasons stated above).

Again, thank you very much for all your replies!

AM.

Why not complicate things? This is a hobby, the complications are the fun part! Screw making it simple, toss in an extra level of complication to add efficiency and experience and toss in the multi. There's no extra written to take, and it's a fun complication that adds utility to your ticket in the future, as well as the ability to log ME time into anyone you can talk out of it; and that's easier than you may imagine. Don't be timid, enjoy the complication, it's all achievable even by reasonably stupid people.

 

[ja_user]

If you are renting, then just fly one aircraft. You really need to be commercial proficient in both anyway. Both airplanes need to be ready to fly, and you "could be" asked to fly something else in the arrow.

An arrow isn't hard to fly. Part of this rating should be getting into an aircraft that makes you get past that uncomfortable phase, the 10hours of complex should do that.

 

[DesertNomad]

You actually got to 260 hours without flying anything but a Cirrus? I know of no one who has more than 100 hours who has not flown several different makes & models.

That shocked me too. I have about 210 hours and have flown ten different types including a Decathlon, Turbo Lance, Bonanza, Diamond and others. I think the variety exposes you to a lot of different characteristics of flying... and that is worth something.

 

[Jaybird180]

If he intends to go back and keep flying the Cirrus after the rating, I would suggest he train the maneuvers to proficiency in both and when it comes to the ride itself, do it all in the Arrow. I don't really see the point in swapping planes mid ride. Like you said, the Arrow is not difficult, probably the majority of guys flying now earned their commercial in a PA-28-R. It will add no great effort to get the commercial maneuvers in the Arrow in addition to the Cirrus, and gives him a wider range of direct comparison between the planes.

Most people who are swapping to a fixed gear plane are doing so to save money. If you are in a unique situation where you are operating a Cirrus cheaper than an Arrow, then by all means, swap mid ride. That's not typical so that's not what I based my statement on.

Now, there is another option open to you that would broaden your experience even further. The Seminole is a twin engine trainer that is an Arrow with two engines, flies the same as to what you're used to. What you can do is your initial Commercial check ride as Multi Engine and fulfill the retract requirements, and then you can get into the Cirrus and add on the SE to your Commercial.

Doesn't a Comm applicant need to have a PP to qualify?

 

[EdFred]

Doesn't a Comm applicant need to have a PP to qualify?

Yes. But if you read 14CFR61.123 and 129 you'll notice something,

 

[Soldier64]

You actually got to 260 hours without flying anything but a Cirrus? I know of no one who has more than 100 hours who has not flown several different makes & models.

NOTE: This is not an anti Cirrus post. I am just a bit perplexed that any pilot would not want to fly different aircraft.

Before buying my Arrow I had 1200 hours in a Bell 206 (85 hours ish, I think) and then nothing but the AH-64D. Then I bought the Arrow and now in FW I have 158 hours in only my PA28R.

I've flown in a lot of other planes, but they belonged to the people I flew with so they aren't in my logbook.

 

[Jaybird180]

Yes. But if you read 14CFR61.123 and 129 you'll notice something,

Only thing I noticed is the reference to 61.73. Maybe someone else will notice it before you give the answer.

 

[EdFred]

Only thing I noticed is the reference to 61.73. Maybe someone else will notice it before you give the answer.

Maybe the question is better asked, "what DON'T you notice?"

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Doesn't a Comm applicant need to have a PP to qualify?

I am about to take a commercial glider ride and I don't have a private certificate.

 

[EdFred]

I am about to take a commercial glider ride and I don't have a private certificate.

But you do have "at least" one.

What the regulation says or doesn't say, is that you don't have to have a private pilot certificate in the category you are seeking, only a private certificate (in any category).

Of course, you knew that.

 

[RussR]

Regarding two aircraft for the checkride, I did that. I owned a Warrior at the time and used a 172RG for a few landings. I already had the 10 hours of complex training so I only needed enough in the 172RG to get used to it.

It worked out fine (and I passed), but the checkride itself it sure took a long time. Two sets of maintenance records to review and explain and convince the DPE of the airworthiness. Two sets of systems to get quizzed on. Two preflights. Two taxi trips to and from the runway, two sets of runups, etc., etc. A commercial checkride could really be done in maybe an hour or so of hobbs time, but due to all this is took me something like 3 hours of clock time. That's after the oral was done.

We did ALL the landing items in the 172RG, he didn't even count my one landing in the Warrior as credit for any of the items. Even so, that part did go pretty quickly.

But I did it that way because I already owned the Warrior, could practice as much as I wanted in it, and since I already met the complex time, I just needed a few in the 172RG to get proficient.

If I did NOT have the 10 hours complex, like the OP, it would have just been easier to practice the maneuvers during that 10 horus and then use that one airplane for the whole checkride.

My CFI checkride was also done in two airplanes, a 172 and a (different) 172RG, but that was not by choice. The 172RG broke on a flight while we were doing the oral, so we went in the 172. They got it fixed that day and we came back a little later and finished up. Two landings I think, or it might have just been a landing and a go-around.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Of course, you knew that.

Sure I did. I was responding to Jaybird indicating that it can be done.

 

[Everskyward]

Regarding two aircraft for the checkride, I did that. I owned a Warrior at the time and used a 172RG for a few landings. I already had the 10 hours of complex training so I only needed enough in the 172RG to get used to it.

It worked out fine (and I passed), but the checkride itself it sure took a long time. Two sets of maintenance records to review and explain and convince the DPE of the airworthiness. Two sets of systems to get quizzed on. Two preflights. Two taxi trips to and from the runway, two sets of runups, etc., etc. A commercial checkride could really be done in maybe an hour or so of hobbs time, but due to all this is took me something like 3 hours of clock time.

We did ALL the landing items in the 172RG, he didn't even count my one landing in the Warrior as credit for any of the items. Even so, that part did go pretty quickly.

But I did it that way because I already owned the Warrior, could practice as much as I wanted in it, and since I already met the complex time, I just needed a few in the 172RG to get proficient.

If I did NOT have the 10 hours complex, like the OP, it would have just been easier to practice the maneuvers during that 10 horus and then use that one airplane for the whole checkride.

My CFI checkride was also done in two airplanes, a 172 and a (different) 172RG, but that was not by choice. The 172RG broke on a flight while we were doing the oral, so we went in the 172. They got it fixed that day and we came back a little later and finished up. Two landings I think, or it might have just been a landing and a go-around.

I also used two airplanes for both the Commercial and CFI. It worked out OK but I don't think I would necessarily recommend it unless you really want to save the few dollars it takes to learn how to the commercial maneuvers in a complex.