Comm maneuver questions

[spiderweb]

Studying the Gleim maneuver book. Two questions:

1) Power-off 180. Seems like this is basically how I've always done power-off landings, if commenced abeam the numbers. I learned the term "key position" to apply anywhere, actually. For example, if I lose an engine at 5,000', aside from all the emergency procedures, the part about finding where to land includes being in the key position at about 1000' AGL. Obviously, power-off 180 is very different from the C172 compared to the Saratoga or Trinidad that I've flown. (C172 = almost normal procedure; Saratoga or Trinidad = TURN NOW.)

2) Eights. Is there an advantage to practicing (or taking the test) in these in a low-wing? I'm thinking reference points. . . .

Thanks!

 

[nosehair]

2) Eights. Is there an advantage to practicing (or taking the test) in these in a low-wing? I'm thinking reference points. . . .

Not that I can see. In either high wing or low wing, your line of sight is under the high wing or over the low wing. In either one, you never lose sight of the pylon. Oh, wait. Are you talking 8s on pylons, or lazy 8s?
Yes, lazy 8s in a low wing have a better view of the far horizon reference points.

What was your 1st question?

 

[spiderweb]

Not that I can see. In either high wing or low wing, your line of sight is under the high wing or over the low wing. In either one, you never lose sight of the pylon. Oh, wait. Are you talking 8s on pylons, or lazy 8s?
Yes, lazy 8s in a low wing have a better view of the far horizon reference points.

What was your 1st question?

8s on pylons

 

[flyingcheesehead]

2) Eights. Is there an advantage to practicing (or taking the test) in these in a low-wing? I'm thinking reference points. . . .

8s on pylons

Most of the maneuvers, including 8's on pylons, there isn't much of an advantage either way (high wing or low wing).

One notable exception, though, is that the steep spirals are much easier in a high wing - Since you need enough altitude to do three full turns and recover well above the ground, you're going to need several thousand feet of altitude and that makes it a bit hard to maintain a small enough turn radius to meet the required bank angles and still keep an eye on your center point.

I did most of my commercial maneuver practice in a low-wing, and then the last few hours and checkride in a high wing, FWIW. The only part that was bad about having a high wing on my checkride was the particular point where the examiner pulled the engine required an immediate and fairly steep (30-45º) turn to the right, which made it hard to judge how my glide was going during the turn and whether or not I needed to add drag or not.

Those sneaky DPE's... He pulled the engine during the 8's on pylons where you are, by definition, less than 1000 feet off the ground for the most part - Not a lot of options available that low.

BTW, something I did to help with the ride: I made a checklist for the maneuvers. I'll attach it here. Run through it if you can before each maneuver to make sure you're properly configured and have your mind on straight, and let 'er rip. The version I'm attaching is for the Arrow IV I started in, but I also have versions for the C182RG I took the ride in, and one for the multi ride on the Apache if anyone wants those. Hope it helps!

 

[TMetzinger]

A couple of things:

The power-off 180 is an accuracy manuever where you need to identify a point on the runway, then touchdown on or slightly past (200') that point. It's NOT the same thing as the emergency approach and landing where making the runway is a passing grade. I recommend picking the touchdown point somewhere down the runway (first fixed distance marker if the runway has it). Gear is normally already down for this manuever as it STARTS at pattern altitude on the downwind leg no more than 1000 AGL. Then I like to leave the prop forward and use the flaps and prop as "drag weapons" - I add the flaps in when I'm confident I'll be a bit high, and if I'm looking a little short, I can still pull the prop back. But with some practice you can manage to leave the prop alone.

For 8s on pylons - there's not a large difference between hi and low wings - in low you keep the wing a certain distance below the pylon and in high you keep the wing a certain distance above the pylon. As long as you remember that the primary controls are elevator for fore and aft pylon movement, and aileron for up and down pylon movement, and that the rudder is only for coordination, you'll be fine.

If you're planning on becoming a CFI, you might as well start verbalizing/teaching all the way through the manuevers.

 

[taters]

On the PO180 ,
if you think you are going to be short of the 1000 foot area deploy some additional flap (have some reserve flap)in ground effect, this will float you quite aways as the induced drag penalty is nil or little...works nicely

 

[Fearless Tower]

On the PO180 ,
if you think you are going to be short of the 1000 foot area deploy some additional flap (have some reserve flap)in ground effect, this will float you quite aways as the induced drag penalty is nil or little...works nicely

Also, if you are in an Arrow or any plane with a 'Johnson Bar', you still have a little flap left even with full flaps selected. That little extra pull on the lever can be just the thing you need.

 

[elmetal]

Also, if you are in an Arrow or any plane with a 'Johnson Bar', you still have a little flap left even with full flaps selected. That little extra pull on the lever can be just the thing you need.

shhhh you're giving away my perfect landing method!

 

[gismo]

Flaps, prop control??? I did the ASEL comm test in my Porterfield where slips are the only drag adjustment available. But touching down within 200 ft of the mark is childs play, you can land and stop in 200 ft if you try hard since you can be as slow as about 35 mph at touchdown.

 

[RyanShort1]

Also, if you are in an Arrow or any plane with a 'Johnson Bar', you still have a little flap left even with full flaps selected. That little extra pull on the lever can be just the thing you need.

Awww. That's cheating. If you're good enough, you don't need it anyway.

Ryan

 

[spiderweb]

Kent, thanks for that checklist! The place where I'll train uses an Arrow, but I don't know which version.

Most of the maneuvers, including 8's on pylons, there isn't much of an advantage either way (high wing or low wing).

One notable exception, though, is that the steep spirals are much easier in a high wing - Since you need enough altitude to do three full turns and recover well above the ground, you're going to need several thousand feet of altitude and that makes it a bit hard to maintain a small enough turn radius to meet the required bank angles and still keep an eye on your center point.

I did most of my commercial maneuver practice in a low-wing, and then the last few hours and checkride in a high wing, FWIW. The only part that was bad about having a high wing on my checkride was the particular point where the examiner pulled the engine required an immediate and fairly steep (30-45º) turn to the right, which made it hard to judge how my glide was going during the turn and whether or not I needed to add drag or not.

Those sneaky DPE's... He pulled the engine during the 8's on pylons where you are, by definition, less than 1000 feet off the ground for the most part - Not a lot of options available that low.

BTW, something I did to help with the ride: I made a checklist for the maneuvers. I'll attach it here. Run through it if you can before each maneuver to make sure you're properly configured and have your mind on straight, and let 'er rip. The version I'm attaching is for the Arrow IV I started in, but I also have versions for the C182RG I took the ride in, and one for the multi ride on the Apache if anyone wants those. Hope it helps!

 

[spiderweb]

Thanks Tim! One thing I am good at now is verbalizing as I do things, because I have to do that alllllllllll day long when I teach cello!

Then again, I'm far from an expert pilot! :wink2:

A couple of things:

The power-off 180 is an accuracy manuever where you need to identify a point on the runway, then touchdown on or slightly past (200') that point. It's NOT the same thing as the emergency approach and landing where making the runway is a passing grade. I recommend picking the touchdown point somewhere down the runway (first fixed distance marker if the runway has it). Gear is normally already down for this manuever as it STARTS at pattern altitude on the downwind leg no more than 1000 AGL. Then I like to leave the prop forward and use the flaps and prop as "drag weapons" - I add the flaps in when I'm confident I'll be a bit high, and if I'm looking a little short, I can still pull the prop back. But with some practice you can manage to leave the prop alone.

For 8s on pylons - there's not a large difference between hi and low wings - in low you keep the wing a certain distance below the pylon and in high you keep the wing a certain distance above the pylon. As long as you remember that the primary controls are elevator for fore and aft pylon movement, and aileron for up and down pylon movement, and that the rudder is only for coordination, you'll be fine.

If you're planning on becoming a CFI, you might as well start verbalizing/teaching all the way through the manuevers.

 

[spiderweb]

Also, if you are in an Arrow or any plane with a 'Johnson Bar', you still have a little flap left even with full flaps selected. That little extra pull on the lever can be just the thing you need.

I never thought of that!

 

[poadeleted20]

Flaps, prop control??? I did the ASEL comm test in my Porterfield where slips are the only drag adjustment available.

I did my initial CP in a Cessna 150, but that was in 1972, before the complex requirement was introduced. No doubt Lance either did the same, or got his initial CP in his Baron and then added the ASEL rating in the Porterfield. Once you've demonstrated complex proficiency at the commercial level, you don't have to do it again for an additional rating at the commercial level.

But touching down within 200 ft of the mark is childs play, you can land and stop in 200 ft if you try hard since you can be as slow as about 35 mph at touchdown.

But you still have to touch down within the selected 200-foot zone, not just stop within 200 feet.

 

[gismo]

I did my initial CP in a Cessna 150, but that was in 1972, before the complex requirement was introduced. No doubt Lance either did the same, or got his initial CP in his Baron and then added the ASEL rating in the Porterfield. Once you've demonstrated complex proficiency at the commercial level, you don't have to do it again for an additional rating at the commercial level.

Yep, Commercial AMEL first.

But you still have to touch down within the selected 200-foot zone, not just stop within 200 feet.

Yea but if you can land in 200 ft making the initial touchdown inside that distance is a cakewalk. Of course since it's a taildragger your initial touchdown might not be your final touchdown.

 

[spiderweb]

How often would you say people take the ride in a "non-complex" and then finish in a complex? I guess it is kind of silly, but I have 500 hours in one type, and the owner of the Saratoga won't let me use his airplane for the complex ride. (Can't say I blame him.)

 

[flyingcheesehead]

How often would you say people take the ride in a "non-complex" and then finish in a complex? I guess it is kind of silly, but I have 500 hours in one type, and the owner of the Saratoga won't let me use his airplane for the complex ride. (Can't say I blame him.)

Why? If you can fly the plane, you can fly the plane. There's nothing particularly hard on an airplane in the commercial ride.

 

[spiderweb]

Why? If you can fly the plane, you can fly the plane. There's nothing particularly hard on an airplane in the commercial ride.

Well, it is his plane. I guess you don't want your baby out on a test?

 

[gismo]

Well, it is his plane. I guess you don't want your baby out on a test?

Maybe he's afraid the airplane and/or it's paperwork might not pass muster if the DE chooses to look closely?

 

[jesse]

Maybe he's afraid the airplane and/or it's paperwork might not pass muster if the DE chooses to look closely?

That's about all I can think of. There is nothing about the commercial that is hard on the airplane.

If you're a reasonably current pilot you're not going to need that much preparation for the commercial in the first place so you might as well just do it all in the complex so that you can increase your familiarity in it.

 

[elmetal]

Maybe he's afraid the airplane and/or it's paperwork might not pass muster if the DE chooses to look closely?

That's probably a lot more like it

 

[Everskyward]

How often would you say people take the ride in a "non-complex" and then finish in a complex?

That's how I did it because my CFI said it would be less expensive that way. I don't know if it was or not but in the end it seemed like a PITA. I did the non-complex part in a Warrior (the only time I have in a Warrior). I trained for the complex part in a Arrow but something happened to it so I ended up doing the complex part in a C182-RG which was easier for me anyway since I was much more familiar with Cessnas.

 

[spiderweb]

Thanks, guys. I think I'm going to skip BWI this time and do it at the "local" airport in their Arrow.

I'm always so anal, and want to take the Gleim written prep 100 times until I get a perfect or near-perfect grade. I can just see I'm going to drag it out. . . .

 

[elmetal]

Good luck! That's my next step!

 

[bbchien]

In the Arrow, first determine if autoextend has been disabled. If it has not, then be sure to manually disable autoextend prior to the power off 180. You don't want the gear flopping out suddenly, putting you below the amount of energy you need to make the pavement.

 

[jesse]

In the Arrow, first determine if autoextend has been disabled. If it has not, then be sure to manually disable autoextend prior to the power off 180. You don't want the gear flopping out suddenly, putting you below the amount of energy you need to make the pavement.

In the Debonair the first thing I did during the power off 180 was drop the gear followed by an immediate turn to base. I don't like delaying the gear as doing so seems like an accident waiting to happen and you can make the runway in it from pattern altitude at a reasonably spaced downwind.

I've never flown an Arrow though. Perhaps they glide worse.

 

[TMetzinger]

In the Debonair the first thing I did during the power off 180 was drop the gear followed by an immediate turn to base. I don't like delaying the gear as doing so seems like an accident waiting to happen and you can make the runway in it from pattern altitude at a reasonably spaced downwind.

Same thing in the arrow - in the FAA docs they even talk about starting the manuever on the downwind leg with the gear already extended. In my Arrow I found that the gear could take many seconds to extend, and that's not something to do when you're deliberately putting the plane close to the ground and the runway. I teach that you're on downwind, gear down, pre-landing checks done, and the throttle goes to idle abeam your touchdown point. At that point you establish best glide speed and make the turn towards the runway. I like to get the turns done early and be lined up rather than making the base-to-final turn close to the ground. Then add drag as required with flaps or slips to make your touchdown.

 

[spiderweb]

In the Arrow, first determine if autoextend has been disabled. If it has not, then be sure to manually disable autoextend prior to the power off 180. You don't want the gear flopping out suddenly, putting you below the amount of energy you need to make the pavement.

That's a very good point! I have never flown an Arrow, and the Saratoga doesn't have autoextend (I don't think).

 

[Fearless Tower]

That's a very good point! I have never flown an Arrow, and the Saratoga doesn't have autoextend (I don't think).

Not sure if any Saratogas themselves had it, but alot of the PA32R Lances have the auto gear extension. If it has a separate pitot tube coming out of the left side of the fuselage behind the pilot, then it is installed.

 

[spiderweb]

Not sure if any Saratogas themselves had it, but alot of the PA32R Lances have the auto gear extension. If it has a separate pitot tube coming out of the left side of the fuselage behind the pilot, then it is installed.

Thanks. I don't think it has it then!

 

[flyingcheesehead]

In the Arrow, first determine if autoextend has been disabled. If it has not, then be sure to manually disable autoextend prior to the power off 180. You don't want the gear flopping out suddenly, putting you below the amount of energy you need to make the pavement.

The power-off 180 is generally started abeam the numbers, where the gear should already be down. But there are several other maneuvers that the auto-extend can mess with - It really messes up your chandelles.

That's why in that checklist I posted, many of the maneuvers start with "Auto-extend - disable" and end with "auto-extend - enable."

I HATE that system. Especially on the Arrow I, where there's no detent on the disable side and you have to hold the switch. I've only got two hands...

 

[poadeleted20]

Maybe he's afraid the airplane and/or it's paperwork might not pass muster if the DE chooses to look closely?

Or maybe he doesn't want the engine cycled rapidly and repeatedly between full power climb and idle descent on Steep Spirals and 180 power-off approaches. I spent yesterday with a commercial trainee in a Tiger, and the CHT cooling alarm was popping up repeatedly, with values up around 100 deg/min, which doesn't enhance the engine's longevity.

 

[poadeleted20]

If you're a reasonably current pilot you're not going to need that much preparation for the commercial in the first place

I realize that Jesse said he needed only 5 hours training in a Debonair to get a sign-off for CP, but speaking as one who's trained quite a few for that certificate over the years, his experience is well outside the norm. Ten hours of training specific to the CP (on top of 10 hours from the IR) is much more typical.

 

[poadeleted20]

In the Debonair the first thing I did during the power off 180 was drop the gear

That's a wise course of action. I've had two CP trainees in the last 18 months start (at their own insistence) flying this maneuver with the gear up, planning to extend it "when I've got the field made." In each case, on one of their first couple of approaches, I had to call for a go-around on short final because the gear was not down, and both were surprised on the "go" to find the gear handle was already up. Perhaps since they initially "tuned out" the gear warning horn, it no longer made an impression by the time they approached the threshold with it still beeping? In any event, both were happy thereafter to accept my "suggestion" that the drop the gear at the abeam position.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Perhaps since they initially "tuned out" the gear warning horn, it no longer made an impression by the time they approached the threshold with it still beeping?

That sounds remarkably like the classic youtube Cessna gear up video - the gear horn is blaring through the whole approach right up to the point where the fuselage starts scraping the runway.

 

[dmccormack]

I realize that Jesse said he needed only 5 hours training in a Debonair to get a sign-off for CP, but speaking as one who's trained quite a few for that certificate over the years, his experience is well outside the norm. Ten hours of training specific to the CP (on top of 10 hours from the IR) is much more typical.

CP dual was about 5 for me, but I had time in the airplane and practiced on my own.

 

[jesse]

That sounds remarkably like the classic youtube Cessna gear up video - the gear horn is blaring through the whole approach right up to the point where the fuselage starts scraping the runway.

That's all I could think about when I did the power off 180 on my checkride. I probably checked the gear 15 times.

 

[poadeleted20]

That sounds remarkably like the classic youtube Cessna gear up video - the gear horn is blaring through the whole approach right up to the point where the fuselage starts scraping the runway.

Had they intentionally delayed gear extension, or just clean forgotten it entirely?

 

[poadeleted20]

CP dual was about 5 for me, but I had time in the airplane and practiced on my own.

When had you gotten the other 15 required hours of dual?

 

[Fearless Tower]

Had they intentionally delayed gear extension, or just clean forgotten it entirely?

I believe they forgot it entirely.