Comm maneuver questions

[spiderweb]

Question: In your experience (those who took the ride), when planning the X-C, did any of your examiners require you to use a whiz wheel for calculations, or were you allowed a calculator or online X-C planning program? For my private, it was done with the whiz wheel.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Question: In your experience (those who took the ride), when planning the X-C, did any of your examiners require you to use a whiz wheel for calculations, or were you allowed a calculator or online X-C planning program? For my private, it was done with the whiz wheel.

My examiner wanted to see it all worked out the old fashioned way - E6B style, but only required that I come to the oral with it all prepared vice actually doing it in front of him.

 

[dmccormack]

When had you gotten the other 15 required hours of dual?

Lots of time can be logged as "Commercial training" which isn't focused on the maneuvers. In my case CAP training and checkout.

 

[jesse]

My examiner wanted to see it all worked out the old fashioned way - E6B style, but only required that I come to the oral with it all prepared vice actually doing it in front of him.

I did it all the old fashion way with the e6b, plotter, and hand written nav log with the WCA, variation, deviation, etc for the entire route of flight which was over 400 nm. VFR using rivers, rail road tracks, lakes, etc as check points. Fuel remaining for each segment. It took me a few hours....

 

[elmetal]

I've done a fair amount of long flying. Does the Comm long xc have to be roundtrip or can it be the next day?

Example: I flew from kfxe to kcrg, and then finishing at kcub.

next day I picked right back up kcub komn kfxe

would anything like that count or does it have to be all one timespan?

 

[dmccormack]

Question: In your experience (those who took the ride), when planning the X-C, did any of your examiners require you to use a whiz wheel for calculations, or were you allowed a calculator or online X-C planning program? For my private, it was done with the whiz wheel.

My Comm DPE said "Whatever works for you."

The examiner cannot require a method.

 

[Fearless Tower]

VFR using rivers, rail road tracks, lakes, etc as check points. Fuel remaining for each segment. It took me a few hours....

Good point - my examiner wanted to see real VFR planning using landmarks - not Navaids like VORs or airway routing.

 

[spiderweb]

I did it all the old fashion way with the e6b, plotter, and hand written nav log with the WCA, variation, deviation, etc for the entire route of flight which was over 400 nm. VFR using rivers, rail road tracks, lakes, etc as check points. Fuel remaining for each segment. It took me a few hours....

That's how I did it for the VFR--not even one VOR thrown in my plan.

I asked because, with something like a G1000 and all its backups, coupled with excellent online flight planners, like AOPA's, asking someone to prepare a VFR X-C just -has- to be about core pilotage and flying skills; something that demonstrates you know how to do all the calculations, understand how the winds affect things, and really know how to fly by DR if everything breaks.

Then again, as Jessie points out, it takes time to do it that way!

 

[elmetal]

Then again, as Jessie points out, it takes time to do it that way!

and it's a lot more involved in the cockpit as far as figuring out where you are what the wind is doing and where to go next. it's easy to adjust to a GPS or VOR needle.

 

[spiderweb]

Nothing was as good as the Gleim test prep CDs, but is there something similar online? Gleim doesn't work on Macs.

 

[poadeleted20]

I believe they forgot it entirely.

In that case, not exactly the same as the "deferred extension" situation, but the point is still taken.

 

[poadeleted20]

Question: In your experience (those who took the ride), when planning the X-C, did any of your examiners require you to use a whiz wheel for calculations, or were you allowed a calculator or online X-C planning program? For my private, it was done with the whiz wheel.

I know of nothing in the regulations, PTS, or Examiner's Handbook specifically requiring one to perform the calculations on a simple flight calculator as part of the XC planning task. As for use of computer flight planning programs (like DUATS or FltPlan.com) for that purpose, the PTS requires one to not only present, but explain the planning material. It's easy enough for the examiner to find out during the "explaining" part whether or not the applicant knows enough about the fundamentals to detect errors in the computer output due to operator error.

However, in addition to the preflight planning, the PTS also requires one to accurately compute heading, groundspeed, arrival time, and fuel consumption to the diversion airport while in flight, and that computer hooked to the internet back in the briefing room won't help you there, so proficiency with some sort of portable computation device is going to be necessary. That said, there's nothing in the books requiring one to use a manual device like a "whiz wheel" (E6-B, CR-2, or otherwise) versus an electronic calculator, although whatever it is, from a practical standpoint, it better be small enough to handle with one hand in the cockpit of whatever it is you're flying.

 

[jesse]

I know of nothing in the regulations, PTS, or Examiner's Handbook specifically requiring one to perform the calculations on a simple flight calculator as part of the XC planning task. As for use of computer flight planning programs (like DUATS or FltPlan.com) for that purpose, the PTS requires one to not only present, but explain the planning material. It's easy enough for the examiner to find out during the "explaining" part whether or not the applicant knows enough about the fundamentals to detect errors in the computer output due to operator error.

However, in addition to the preflight planning, the PTS also requires one to accurately compute heading, groundspeed, arrival time, and fuel consumption to the diversion airport while in flight, and that computer hooked to the internet back in the briefing room won't help you there, so proficiency with some sort of portable computation device is going to be necessary. That said, there's nothing in the books requiring one to use a manual device like a "whiz wheel" (E6-B, CR-2, or otherwise) versus an electronic calculator, although whatever it is, from a practical standpoint, it better be small enough to handle with one hand in the cockpit of whatever it is you're flying.

I used E6B Pro during the checkride on my iPhone for both the whiz-wheel type calculations and for calculating pivotal altitude based on the GPS groundspeed output.

 

[poadeleted20]

Lots of time can be logged as "Commercial training" which isn't focused on the maneuvers. In my case CAP training and checkout.

If you've read the FAA's latest response regarding the Thierault interpretation, the CAP instructor would have to specifically log training events appropriate to the requirements of 61.127 for the time to count, and that doesn't always happen. But this isn't a real surprise to me, because the Feds have, over the last 10 years or so, gotten very sticky about documentation of ground and flight training for certificates/ratings, demanding that all appropriate events are clearly logged if the time is to count for the aeronautical experience requirements, and that all required events be somewhere in there for the applicant to be considered eligible for the practical test.

 

[poadeleted20]

I've done a fair amount of long flying. Does the Comm long xc have to be roundtrip or can it be the next day?

Example: I flew from kfxe to kcrg, and then finishing at kcub.

next day I picked right back up kcub komn kfxe

would anything like that count or does it have to be all one timespan?

The FAA says that an overnight stop does not by itself reset the "original point of departure", so you can consider it one flight for this purpose. As for the rest...

(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles;

The total distance of 951 nm well exceeds the 300 nm minimum, the landings at five points exceeds the three required, and the distance from KFXE to KCRG of 258 nm exceeds the requirement for a landing more than 250 nm from the original point of departure. So, it looks good to me -- as long as it was all solo (i.e., no other living human beings in the airplane).

 

[poadeleted20]

Good point - my examiner wanted to see real VFR planning using landmarks - not Navaids like VORs or airway routing.

That point is required -- it must be pilotage/DR, not electronic nav (although I suppose using the buildings that house the VOR's as visual landmarks would be acceptable).

1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to pilotage and dead
reckoning.
2. Follows the preplanned course by reference to landmarks.
3. Identifies landmarks by relating surface features to chart symbols.
4. Navigates by means of precomputed headings, groundspeeds, and​

elapsed time.

They just don't specify what tools you may/must use to do those precomputations.

 

[poadeleted20]

I used E6B Pro during the checkride on my iPhone for both the whiz-wheel type calculations and for calculating pivotal altitude based on the GPS groundspeed output.

Using the E6B app on the iPhone sounds fine to me, but I don't think the examiner was required to allow you to use a GPS to figure GS for that part of the test. I believe s/he would have been within the rules to demand that you compute GS based on time and distance between ground landmarks.

 

[dmccormack]

If you've read the FAA's latest response regarding the Thierault interpretation, the CAP instructor would have to specifically log training events appropriate to the requirements of 61.127 for the time to count, and that doesn't always happen. But this isn't a real surprise to me, because the Feds have, over the last 10 years or so, gotten very sticky about documentation of ground and flight training for certificates/ratings, demanding that all appropriate events are clearly logged if the time is to count for the aeronautical experience requirements, and that all required events be somewhere in there for the applicant to be considered eligible for the practical test.

And my DE was very careful. My point is that the definition of "Commercial Training Dual" can be very broad, since the half manuevers are simply Private flying with tighter tolerances.

 

[elmetal]

The FAA says that an overnight stop does not by itself reset the "original point of departure", so you can consider it one flight for this purpose. As for the rest...

The total distance of 951 nm well exceeds the 300 nm minimum, the landings at five points exceeds the three required, and the distance from KFXE to KCRG of 258 nm exceeds the requirement for a landing more than 250 nm from the original point of departure. So, it looks good to me -- as long as it was all solo (i.e., no other living human beings in the airplane).

lol yep solo it was.

I've also done KGNV KCUB KLKR and back, KGNV KHWO KLAL KGNV (this one is only 245nm straight line. DAMN!)


I used to do a lot of flying by myself.

 

[jesse]

Using the E6B app on the iPhone sounds fine to me, but I don't think the examiner was required to allow you to use a GPS to figure GS for that part of the test. I believe s/he would have been within the rules to demand that you compute GS based on time and distance between ground landmarks.

Agree. But I use every tool they'll let me use on a checkride. If they take it away I'll fail to the next least reliable thing, which in this case, would be me with a stop watch.

 

[spiderweb]

Thanks, Ron!

I know of nothing in the regulations, PTS, or Examiner's Handbook specifically requiring one to perform the calculations on a simple flight calculator as part of the XC planning task. As for use of computer flight planning programs (like DUATS or FltPlan.com) for that purpose, the PTS requires one to not only present, but explain the planning material. It's easy enough for the examiner to find out during the "explaining" part whether or not the applicant knows enough about the fundamentals to detect errors in the computer output due to operator error.

However, in addition to the preflight planning, the PTS also requires one to accurately compute heading, groundspeed, arrival time, and fuel consumption to the diversion airport while in flight, and that computer hooked to the internet back in the briefing room won't help you there, so proficiency with some sort of portable computation device is going to be necessary. That said, there's nothing in the books requiring one to use a manual device like a "whiz wheel" (E6-B, CR-2, or otherwise) versus an electronic calculator, although whatever it is, from a practical standpoint, it better be small enough to handle with one hand in the cockpit of whatever it is you're flying.

 

[spiderweb]

I used E6B Pro during the checkride on my iPhone for both the whiz-wheel type calculations and for calculating pivotal altitude based on the GPS groundspeed output.

How do you like that app? I've been wondering. . . .

 

[jesse]

How do you like that app? I've been wondering. . . .

Well since I'm the one that developed it - I like it indeed The release that is pending Apple approval right now adds METARs and TAFs and displays them in both raw and translated versions.

 

[poadeleted20]

Agree. But I use every tool they'll let me use on a checkride. If they take it away I'll fail to the next least reliable thing, which in this case, would be me with a stop watch.

Good for you, because I know examiners who'll fail you on judgement if you don't use everything you've got in an abnormal situation (e.g., the 5-instrument display on your Garmin hand-held after a vacuum failure which takes out your AI and HI on an IR ride). Of course, after you start to use the GPS, they may take it away and see how you do (i.e., with nothing but mag compass, pitot/static instruments, and TC on that IR ride), and you must be prepared for that, too.

BTW, you got an Android version of that E6B app, too?

 

[jesse]

BTW, you got an Android version of that E6B app, too?

Unfortunately I do not - yet.

 

[spiderweb]

Well since I'm the one that developed it - I like it indeed The release that is pending Apple approval right now adds METARs and TAFs and displays them in both raw and translated versions.

Wow that's cool! And also, duh--I should have read your tag line!