Colorado Fatal 3/31/2013

Dang it! Sound like he was only 10 nm from his destination, and clear of the mountains.
 
No fire, sounds like fuel exhaustion once again. Why?
 
http://kdvr.com/2013/03/31/fatal-plane-crash-reported-near-castle-rock/

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingn...reported-small-airplane-wreck-near-centennial

https://flightaware.com/resources/registration/N55093

http://www.indeed.com/r/Jason-Bedford/8c47e12fa0108cea

http://www.qwaltec.com/contact.htm

http://www.empowernetwork.com/jbedford/blog/author/jbedford/

PPC issued Aug 2010. Recently purchased plane. Qwaltec(latest job) is located in Tempe AZ. Night time crash at 8:30 PM, 3 hrs before moon rise in Denver. Sunset at 7:23 PM MDT. Just speculating his route(close to work in Tempe)DVT-ABQ-APA. In a PA-28-140 with 36 gallons one could easily make either leg without a headwind. Fuel is $7.25 at ABQ, so possibly did not top off/lean properly/missed installing fuel cap/carb icing on descent. Fuel at APA is $5.40/gal. Descending to 6,885' msl pattern altitude at 10 miles out would definitely get one in trouble too as that is approximately 0 AGL coming in from the SSW.
 
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Oh, a night flight was it. I have never flown in the mountains, but isn't it pretty ballsy to fly single engine 180 hp in the mountains at night? Doesn't sound like the terrain contributed in this case, but seems like a bad idea from a flat-lander perspective. Only about a 2.5 hr flight. surely he didn't set out on a trek through the Rockies with less than 25 gallons or so?
 
No fire, had to be fuel exhaustion being that close to KAPA. Doubt he'd take off short of fuel for a 2.5 hour trip, lost a fuel cap, maybe?

Lot of good emergency landing sites by Franktown, wonder what happened after the engine quit (if it was actually fuel)
 
Every plane is dragged all the way to the site of the crash by a chain of errors.
 
Wouldn't he have been in contact with approach by then for class B clearance?
 
OkieFlyer said:
Wouldn't he have been in contact with approach by then for class B clearance?
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Nah, Class B floor at Franktown where he crashed is 9000', drops to 8000' over KAPA. No need to get a Class B clearance when approaching from Franktown.
 
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Boy did that thing hit hard..:yikes::sad::sad::sad:..

Ya got to give him credit.. He hit perfectly wings level...
 
OkieFlyer said:
Oh, a night flight was it. I have never flown in the mountains, but isn't it pretty ballsy to fly single engine 180 hp in the mountains at night? Doesn't sound like the terrain contributed in this case, but seems like a bad idea from a flat-lander perspective. Only about a 2.5 hr flight. surely he didn't set out on a trek through the Rockies with less than 25 gallons or so?
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If it was the PA28-140, it wasn't a 180 hp engine, probably the 150 hp and it's more than 3 hr flight. Very strange on FlightAware. Lists the aircraft as PIPER PA-28-140 but with the O-360 engine. Doesn't make sense to me.

As for flying in the mountains, ABQ-APA is 9.5 the entire way with the exception of the RTN-TAD area which is better done at 10.5 but that's a personal choice. Altho there is a more direct route, for something under 180 hp, the better choice is ABQ-TAFOY-FTI-CIM-PUB-APA. The route follows or is near I-25.

36 gal for ABQ-APA? Not exactly a good idea. Even on the best day with my PA28-180 hp and 50 gal in the tanks, I've never done that route in less that 3.2 hrs. Even going over either La Veta or Mosca Passes (and ONLY in the daytime!) it's still around 3 hrs.
 
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OkieFlyer said:
Oh, a night flight was it. I have never flown in the mountains, but isn't it pretty ballsy to fly single engine 180 hp in the mountains at night? Doesn't sound like the terrain contributed in this case, but seems like a bad idea from a flat-lander perspective. Only about a 2.5 hr flight. surely he didn't set out on a trek through the Rockies with less than 25 gallons or so?
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No, I've done it plenty of times in a Cherokee 150. With a little moonlight the mountains are easy to see, typically the the lights are in the low spots, I tend to stick to my well beaten paths on CAVU nights with a nice bright moon, a GPS with terrain and obstacles eases your mind too.
 
OkieFlyer said:
Oh, a night flight was it. I have never flown in the mountains, but isn't it pretty ballsy to fly single engine 180 hp in the mountains at night? Doesn't sound like the terrain contributed in this case, but seems like a bad idea from a flat-lander perspective. Only about a 2.5 hr flight. surely he didn't set out on a trek through the Rockies with less than 25 gallons or so?
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Since you brought it up...[shameless plug follows]

The Colorado Pilots Assoc is once again (actually twice again) presenting the High Altitude Airport/Mountain course on Sat June 8 and again on Sat Aug 24.

Details at:

www.coloradopilots.org/mtnfly_class.asp?menuID=92~92

Warning - this is NOT backcountry mountain flying. For that, head to one of the many specialty schools such as McCall's.
 
murphey said:
If it was the PA28-140, it wasn't a 180 hp engine, probably the 150 hp and it's more than 3 hr flight. Very strange on FlightAware. Lists the aircraft as PIPER PA-28-140 but with the O-360 engine. Doesn't make sense to me.
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FlightAware lists an O-320 and 180 hp. Error in database or an STC'd re-engine.

If he "arrived" at 8:30 then he would have been out of the mountains about dark if he took one of the passes. Not an impossible flight for a light Cherokee with full fuel leaving the ABQ area. There were showers around Saturday afternoon and clouds over the mountains. I wouldn't have flown in the hills Saturday but that doesn't mean that it couldn't be done. All that comentary is pointless since he made it to the Denver area.

Even if the engine quit (for whatever reason), there was no need to set it down hard. The powerlines in the area of the crash may have scared him. Their presence doesn't change the procedure for a night forced landing. Maybe he got disoriented...it happens, particularly inadvertent VFR into IMC at night.
 
CO poisoning? Just conjecture. No evidence. Insidious at night though, out near Franktown. Fairly dark getting to that area.

Just trying to think of reasons he'd be in the Franktown area anyway... no need to come that Far East to get to KAPA.

Maybe he wasn't really flying it...
 
denverpilot said:
CO poisoning? Just conjecture. No evidence. Insidious at night though, out near Franktown. Fairly dark getting to that area.

Just trying to think of reasons he'd be in the Franktown area anyway... no need to come that Far East to get to KAPA.

Maybe he wasn't really flying it...
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That's what came to my mind. Guess we will have to wait and see. Too bad, these accidents are happening way too often.
 
Clark1961 said:
FlightAware lists an O-320 and 180 hp. Error in database or an STC'd re-engine.

If he "arrived" at 8:30 then he would have been out of the mountains about dark if he took one of the passes. Not an impossible flight for a light Cherokee with full fuel leaving the ABQ area. There were showers around Saturday afternoon and clouds over the mountains. I wouldn't have flown in the hills Saturday but that doesn't mean that it couldn't be done. All that comentary is pointless since he made it to the Denver area.

Even if the engine quit (for whatever reason), there was no need to set it down hard. The powerlines in the area of the crash may have scared him. Their presence doesn't change the procedure for a night forced landing. Maybe he got disoriented...it happens, particularly inadvertent VFR into IMC at night.
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Fuel exhaustion. If it was dark he may have misjudged his altitude over the ground and flared too low and flew it into the ground. Would explain the path on the ground and the scrunching of the plane. If he flared too high then I would have expect little or no ground path and a pancaked plane. No fire still with that damage to the plane still sounds like fuel exhaustion to me. CO poisoning is a possibility but I would suggest much less likely.
 
denverpilot said:
CO poisoning? Just conjecture. No evidence. Insidious at night though, out near Franktown. Fairly dark getting to that area.

Just trying to think of reasons he'd be in the Franktown area anyway... no need to come that Far East to get to KAPA.

Maybe he wasn't really flying it...
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Chances of landing wings level if CO was involved are low. My bet is fuel. :(
 
murphey said:
Since you brought it up...[shameless plug follows]

The Colorado Pilots Assoc is once again (actually twice again) presenting the High Altitude Airport/Mountain course on Sat June 8 and again on Sat Aug 24.

Details at:

www.coloradopilots.org/mtnfly_class.asp?menuID=92~92

Warning - this is NOT backcountry mountain flying. For that, head to one of the many specialty schools such as McCall's.
Click to expand...

I was just looking at their website a few days ago. As soon as I get my own plane, I will be taking that course. Website says there is a fellow Okie CFI based in Enid, OK.

Whatever happened in the crash, it's a major bummer. I thought perhaps the Cherokee had a 180 hp STC. Perhaps it's a typo. Doesn't really matter, I suppose. I agree with Douglass, the crash site looks like he flew it into the ground.

I lost a friend several months ago in a crash. He stalled his PA-28 235 in IMC and his crash site was much different than this. His engine block was buried 3-4 feet underground, and the plane was pretty much just a pile of rubble. He was not instrument rated, and took off in questionable weather. Another friend, a few years ago, stalled his brand new Cirrus and drilled a hole in the ground. There was almost nothing but a burnt spot left in that crash. This looks a lot different than those two stall crashes.
 
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Given the evidence at hand, my suspicion is also fuel...

For the record, it's being reported locally that the accident flight departed from Sandia Airpark (1N1) a 4800' strip at 6600' MSL, on the other side of the mountains from ABQ. I wonder what his payload was, and if he felt compelled to leave fuel behind.
 
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The plane was last heard from Saturday night when radar pinged it around 8:40 p.m. and when a neighbor called police saying that she heard a plane stalling overhead.
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Interested to know what that means--does a plane make noise when it stalls, or was she talking about an engine sputter?
 
flightwriter said:
Given the evidence at hand, my suspicion is also fuel...

For the record, it's being reported locally that the accident flight departed from Sandia Airpark (1N1) a 4800' strip at 6600' MSL, on the other side of the mountains from ABQ. I wonder what his payload was, and if he felt compelled to leave fuel behind.
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At $5.69/gal 1N1 makes more sense than ABQ.
 
flightwriter said:
Given the evidence at hand, my suspicion is also fuel...

For the record, it's being reported locally that the accident flight departed from Sandia Airpark (1N1) a 4800' strip at 6600' MSL, on the other side of the mountains from ABQ. I wonder what his payload was, and if he felt compelled to leave fuel behind.
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If he refueld at 1N1, then the route is even easier because there's no need to "go around" Sandia Mountain (one of my fav ski areas). Route is slightly shorter, 1N1-TAFOY-FTI-CIM-PUB-LUFSE (optional unless transit COS) then into APA. A bit less than 3 hrs and 29 gal on the PA28-180 (best guess, of course, based on ForeFlight estimates)
 
ebykowsky said:
Interested to know what that means--does a plane make noise when it stalls, or was she talking about an engine sputter?
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I think the general population things that a stalling airplane is like the sound of a stalling or sputtering motor. They can only relate to the sound their car engine make when it isn't running right.
 
tmyers said:
I think the general population things that a stalling airplane is like the sound of a stalling or sputtering motor. They can only relate to the sound their car engine make when it isn't running right.
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Well, when a car "stalls", that means the engine has died, often times with a sputter. Though they are incorrect in this case, I can't blame them a bit. Average Joe doesn't know jack diddley squat about aviation or it's terminology.
 
I worked with Jason at Qwaltec. He was a very sharp and kind young man. I wont get into much detail. I'm a pilot as well(1963 Debonair) but not all that familiar with the make and type aircraft he had. I believe this was weather related to some degree giving the way the plane crashed, short impact zone. Temperature/dew point spread was 6 degrees F(dew point just above freezing) overcast or a good amount of cloud cover at around 2000 AGL at the time. Carb ice, airframe icing, vertigo or all the above. My thoughts and prayers go out to his family!
 
Everyone who goes through this life builds a story. I didn't know Jason, and this is hardly his full story (or even the most significant part of it), but he had the distinction of sending the last command from the Mission Control Center to the Space Shuttle on the last flight of the program.
 
murphey said:
Very strange on FlightAware. Lists the aircraft as PIPER PA-28-140 but with the O-360 engine. Doesn't make sense to me.
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FAA registry lists it as an O-320.
 
Jim_R said:
Everyone who goes through this life builds a story. I didn't know Jason, and this is hardly his full story (or even the most significant part of it), but he had the distinction of sending the last command from the Mission Control Center to the Space Shuttle on the last flight of the program.
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That's pretty cool.

Steeley Eyed Missile Man.
 
bnt83 said:
Wish I had lived through those years
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Enjoy these ones.

Someone will be saying the same thing about them when we are dead.

The grass is always greener in the past for some.

Although I must admit that my visit last week to the Pima Air and Space Museum touched a nerve since many of the aircraft sitting out getting crapped on by birds were the highly secret, classified mission, ****-hot airplanes of my youth.

It wasn't as secret or classified as those, but it was cool to see the F-111 up close.

I was annoyed they have a Cessna 140 on display though. It should be out flying somewhere.

This probably deserves a new thread but I gotta run. Errands and lunch...
 
I once flew from FTG to ABQ on one tank in a Cherokee 140 (seen in my forum avatar), but I filled it full (50 gallons), not to tabs (36 gallons). I aimed to do the same a couple more times, but always had to go to a restroom real bad halfway, so always landed somewhere like Raton or even Las Vegas. One other time, during my first visit to FTG for 2010 LSA Expo, I was very heavy thanks to a passenger and so burned a lot of gas by flying full power at Vy from ABQ to Las Vegas hills. I almost reached Denver when I realized that I have no reserves whatsoever and returned to COS to refuel. COS approache even asked if I was declaring an emergency. My credit card very much disagreed with my ADM... Maybe this guy forgot that he was on tabs and thought he was full in Sandia. Or could be a lost cap, too.
 
This particular Cherokee 140 had an O320 engine 160hp. Having flown that plane myself, I would speculate mechanical issues rather than weather or fuel exhaustion. I wasn't there, of course, so I don't know any more than anyone else. It's definitely not a plane I would have been flying over any terrain at night. From the look of the pasture he crashed onto, it doesn't look like there was much terrain, but then again there was probably no reference to horizon and I would imaging it would be very difficult to dead stick it with nothing more than a landing light.
 
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