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cyclepro

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Cyclepro
Hi, Im new here so forgive me if this is in the wrong place or it has already been brought up.
Im looking into colleges right now and im between University of North Dakota and Western Michigan University. Both seem to have great programs and both have their pros and cons but i cant decide. Which is a better university for commercial aviation?

I should add i will be also getting a degree in computer science or aviation maintenance. As for career goals ideally i would like to fly private jets. Whether that is for a corporation or a rich guy who cant be bothered.
 
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Not the answer you are looking for, but neither of those schools are academic powerhouses.

My advice would be to go to a good academic school and get a degree in anything NOT aviation related while earning your commercial ratings from a local flight school. Then you have a non-aviation degree that is valuable and from a good school PLUS you have your pilot ratings.
 
cyclepro said:
Hi, Im new here so forgive me if this is in the wrong place or it has already been brought up.
Im looking into colleges right now and im between University of North Dakota and Western Michigan University. Both seem to have great programs and both have their pros and cons but i cant decide. Which is a better university for commercial aviation?
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What exactly do you want to do? What is your ultimate career goal?
 
Go to: www.airlinepilotforums.com

They'll gave a great discussion on this. The short version. Airlines don't care where you got your degree. They don't really care what your degree is in. They care if you have one and your GPA.

What's best for you is your decision. Will you stay motivated to get a degree in another field or will the only thing that will work for you is a complete emersion in aviation? How are your finances? Your early years in aviation will suck less if you have little or no debt. Do you already have your pilots certificate? Some programs will require you to get one or more ratings or certificate from them. It's far more expensive to get training from the school.

We could get into a big debate on will your accounting degree help you if you lose your medical 10 years into your aviation career or not. What many found out was that their back up career wasn't there for them when they needed it. Some fields are better than others in this regard. The biggest problem is the "golden handcuff" mentality of employers.

Best of luck whatever way you choose.
 
Yup, two different things that get expensive and worse when mixed. Ratings up to CFI are six months of trade school if you can write a big check, a year to a year and a half of hustling and pay as you go if you don't have a wad to blow. Do not borrow money for flight training or college if you have student loans you won't be able to afford a flying job.
College is only necessary for checking a box(unless you are a STEM guy and if you ain't forget about forcing it) only tangible benefit of college is a plethora of young free women with the idea that they are smart independent and held to zero responsibility. Fun times.
Go cheap, don't take on debt and hustle. If parents can cover the bills go where you want, but if that is the case I wouldn't go to ND, or MI, and I would still separate college from flight training. If you can afford it take a semester go to a pilot mill get all your ratings then find a CFI job near whatever school has the hottest girls and best weather.
Pro tip if you are over iirc 20 years of age you are considered emancipated from a parents financial contribution to school and you will get more grants and better deals on tuition more joke school jobs and such. If money is short I'd go to work at an airport pick up your ratings while working then do the school thing as cheaply as possible with ratings in hand.
Note, women(if you keep one around or stick a bun in one), car loans, alcohol, and excessive love of consumerism will stop you dead.
 
If your ultimate goal is to become an airline pilot, I'd recommend NOT getting the aviation science degree. Get a degree in Business, Engineering, Computer Science, etc. You only need a Bachelor's degree in anything you want. Why put yourself in debt. Just fly on the side. I'm a junior majoring in Economics and later I'll go for my MBA. Hpefully I'll have my CFI before summer so I can start teaching my senior year
 
Welcome to PoA. Tell us a little more about yourself.
You'll get plenty of answers to your questions. Take your choice from among them.
 
jordane93 said:
If your ultimate goal is to become an airline pilot, I'd recommend NOT getting the aviation science degree. Get a degree in Business, Engineering, Computer Science, etc. You only need a Bachelor's degree in anything you want. Why put yourself in debt. Just fly on the side. I'm a junior majoring in Economics and later I'll go for my MBA. Hpefully I'll have my CFI before summer so I can start teaching my senior year
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While I agree that having a non-aviation degree makes you more marketable when the aviation times are hard, one thing to consider is that unless I'm mistaken, I believe you have to pursue an aviation degree program in order to meet the new relaxed ATP mins for approved aviation colleges. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it, if you go to ERAU and get a business degree, you would still need to meet the full 1500 hr ATP requirement for 121.
 
Fearless Tower said:
While I agree that having a non-aviation degree makes you more marketable when the aviation times are hard, one thing to consider is that unless I'm mistaken, I believe you have to pursue an aviation degree program in order to meet the new relaxed ATP mins for approved aviation colleges. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it, if you go to ERAU and get a business degree, you would still need to meet the full 1500 hr ATP requirement for 121.
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I think if you major in Aviation Management and not just regular business administration you can still get the 1200 hrs ATP. Not completely sure though. The way I look at it is why be at least $50,000 in debt only to make $15-18,000 as a FO in the regionals. That seems insane to me. Righ now I'm anticipating on graudating without any debts, while still recieving most, if not all my ratings
 
jordane93 said:
Righ now I'm anticipating on graudating without any debts, while still recieving most, if not all my ratings
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That is a good plan. Based on some other recent discussions, it will be interesting to see what becomes of the regionals in the next 10 years.
 
I'd get an engineering degree at the lowest cost one can manage, in case the medical goes south. A least one has a marketable in demand skill. Might even do engineering instead and fly on your own dime.
 
steingar said:
I'd get an engineering degree at the lowest cost one can manage, in case the medical goes south. A least one has a marketable in demand skill. Might even do engineering instead and fly on your own dime.
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Best advice. If I knew what I know now, I'd have started a trade career and flown on my own dime. Paying for flying is expensive, not having to fly other people where they want to go is priceless.
 
JoseCuervo said:
Not the answer you are looking for, but neither of those schools are academic powerhouses.
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They may not be Ivy League, but the aren't bush league, either. Both are RU/H-rated by the Carnegie Foundation, and both are "Top 200" National Universities in the USN&WR rankings. Other schools near them in that ranking you may have heard of include Texas Tech, University of Louisville (where I did graduate work), and West Virginia University.
 
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Fearless Tower said:
While I agree that having a non-aviation degree makes you more marketable when the aviation times are hard, one thing to consider is that unless I'm mistaken, I believe you have to pursue an aviation degree program in order to meet the new relaxed ATP mins for approved aviation colleges.
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That is correct.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it, if you go to ERAU and get a business degree, you would still need to meet the full 1500 hr ATP requirement for 121.
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That is also correct.
 
jordane93 said:
I think if you major in Aviation Management and not just regular business administration you can still get the 1200 hrs ATP. Not completely sure though.
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I am completely sure that is not correct. Here's the kicker from 14 CFR 61.160:
(2) Completes 60 semester credit hours of aviation and aviation-related coursework that has been recognized by the Administrator as coursework designed to improve and enhance the knowledge and skills of a person seeking a career as a professional pilot;
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Aviation Management programs meeting the standards of AABI (and ERAU, UND, and WMU are all AABI-accredited) do not have that much coursework which meets those requirements.
 
JoseCuervo said:
Not the answer you are looking for, but neither of those schools are academic powerhouses.

My advice would be to go to a good academic school and get a degree in anything NOT aviation related while earning your commercial ratings from a local flight school. Then you have a non-aviation degree that is valuable and from a good school PLUS you have your pilot ratings.
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I couldn't have said it any better myself.

That's exactly what I'm currently doing.
 
Fearless Tower said:
That is a good plan. Based on some other recent discussions, it will be interesting to see what becomes of the regionals in the next 10 years.
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If I get offered a job by a regional, I'm going to bite the terrible salary and deal with it. My dad is a pilot for Delta and offered me 2 pieces of advice. 1. Get a degree in something else besides aviation. 2. take the job with the regional ASAP. He went to ERAU and has the aviation science degree and a minor in BA. He thought he was going to lose his job but he really couldn't do anything else but fly with his degree. He also told me to think about if I fail my medical and can't fly. As for the regionals, he rejected a job becuase he was making good money as the Chief CFI and didn't want to take a pay cut. Although he got hired in '98 by Northwest, he still is low on the seniority list and tells me to take the job as soon as I can. But with the salary so low and student debt high, regionals really deter people from wanting to go fly for their company
 
Ron Levy said:
I am completely sure that is not correct. Here's the kicker from 14 CFR 61.160:
Aviation Management programs meeting the standards of AABI (and ERAU, UND, and WMU are all AABI-accredited) do not have that much coursework which meets those requirements.
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There it is
 
JoseCuervo said:
Not the answer you are looking for, but neither of those schools are academic powerhouses.

My advice would be to go to a good academic school and get a degree in anything NOT aviation related while earning your commercial ratings from a local flight school. Then you have a non-aviation degree that is valuable and from a good school PLUS you have your pilot ratings.
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That. And if you can get your CFI ratings while in school you can instruct to help with the bills and gain hours.
 
Ron Levy said:
They may not be Ivy League, but the aren't bush league, either. Both are RU/H-rated by the Carnegie Foundation, and both are "Top 200" National Universities in the USN&WR rankings. Other schools near them in that ranking you may have heard of include Texas Tech, University of Louisville (where I did graduate work), and West Virginia University.
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That is funny that you somehow hope to convince somebody that schools in Lubbock Texas and Louisville are somehow academic powerhouses. If the OP can't get into good schools and has to settle for lower-tier schools like you did, he should still look to find ones close and cheap to his current location, and not going into debt and relocating to UND or some Compass Directional University that nobody will ever care about.
 
JoseCuervo said:
That is funny that you somehow hope to convince somebody that schools in Lubbock Texas and Louisville are somehow academic powerhouses. If the OP can't get into good schools and has to settle for lower-tier schools like you did, he should still look to find ones close and cheap to his current location, and not going into debt and relocating to UND or some Compass Directional University that nobody will ever care about.
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Truth. Outside the ivies only alumni care about individual school glory.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Truth. Outside the ivies only alumni care about individual school glory.
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No it isn't.

I didn't go to an Ivy.

But I got a lot of eyes popping out visiting a vendor in Chicago when I mentioned taking classes in Cory Hall, birthplace of BSD. It was some 15 years later, but BSD was still around, though it had moved across the street to Evans.

I never considered the large public university I went to as an undergrad a "powerhouse," but some other folks did. Heck, I thought having a special parking permit for Nobel laureates was how it was done, at the time (for the record, only one of the 15 -- Glenn Seaborg -- could lecture worth a damn).

Maybe no airline will care, but it will make a difference in the engineering fields mentioned elsewhere in this thread, and a good choice opens doors through connections and internships that you simply won't get at Southwest Podunk U.
 
cyclepro said:
Hi, Im new here so forgive me if this is in the wrong place or it has already been brought up.
Im looking into colleges right now and im between University of North Dakota and Western Michigan University. Both seem to have great programs and both have their pros and cons but i cant decide. Which is a better university for commercial aviation?
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Find a college/university you like in Minneapolis, Dallas, Atlanta, or Chicago. Resign yourself to getting a degree in a field that you LOVE (not just think might be interesting) that will take 6 years to complete. Walk in to the major airline in one of these cities and ask for work. Sweep floors if you have to until you can promote from within to either maintenance or ops. Work your way through college at the airline and pick up a LOT of experience on the way. Get your A&P after 3 years if you go into maintenance.

Use a community college in your chosen town to do your lower division. One-tenth the cost. Transfer to the 4-year when you finish your 60 units of lower div. Get your degree in your LOVE field; if you bust your medical you have a career to fall back on. Start doing some flying on the weekends; pick up your CFI and start building time.

When you graduate, you should have made some friends in the flight department. Ask them what the best way would be for a recently graduated employee to apply for flight status. Ask what is the absolute minimum set of times to at least be considered. By this time you will know the operations and/or airframes inside and out and have some ready answers for questions that cold-call applicants don't have a clue how to answer.

Jim
Professional Engineer
Pacific Southwest Airlines maintenance employee #521 (college job and I loved it).
 
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ClimbnSink said:
Note, women(if you keep one around or stick a bun in one), car loans, alcohol, and excessive love of consumerism will stop you dead.
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Note: A good woman to come home to after a hard day in the library OR sweeping the hangar floor is one of life's greatest joys. Just keep the aforementioned bun in the oven until you graduate and latch onto a flying job or a permanent job in your college major.

Sink is right about majoring in lots of wimmen, beer, and flashy cars. Easiest route to a bummer of a job for the rest of your life.

Jim
 
Ron Levy said:
Aviation Management programs meeting the standards of AABI (and ERAU, UND, and WMU are all AABI-accredited) do not have that much coursework which meets those requirements.
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The university I attend and work for is 61.160(b) qualified. All graduates right now fall under the 1250 (d) clause. However once we repeat a few course then we will be under the 1000 (b) R-ATP.

All current and future freshman will fall under (b).
 
You're in the right place and welcome.

It's been said a bunch of ways, and I agree with all above. Forget the comm aviation degree program. No one cares that wants to pay you money later on. If you want to get the degree for your own knowledge, that's fine, but have no expectations beyond being book smarter about 'comm aviation'.

Here's what you do: Find the two best state funded schools in your state of residence. Apply to the eng school of each univ. Hope you get accepted, even if it's a provisional acceptance. Live at home, or room with a bunch of other eng students. Work part time at the local airport doing anything they will let you and study every second you can. Graduate with a decent degree, and hopefully some 'aviation' experience under your belt, even if it's only line boy for a few years. Nothing wrong with honest work.

After graduation, buy a cheap two seat trainer after you get a good eng job. Get all the ratings you can in your own plane, with your own instructor. Sell the trainer plane, and start teaching CFI part time until you get the hours, then apply to the regionals.

Then you can decide if you want to give up your cushy ~$64k annual salary to make $18k/year flying CRJs around the upper midwest for 4 years.

lol...
 
Unless I missed it, the OP still hasn't told us what his ultimate career goal is. Per Ron's post:

(2) Completes 60 semester credit hours of aviation and aviation-related coursework that has been recognized by the Administrator as coursework designed to improve and enhance the knowledge and skills of a person seeking a career as a professional pilot;

I don't have first hand knowledge, but what if you want to get an ATP with the relaxed standards (i.e. flying professionally is your goal) why not go to a school where you could possibly meet the requirements and get a minor in computers, IT, business, accounting, or the like. The suggestions to have something to fall back on are good ones. If you don't mind the extra time for the ATP, then go it on your own with a marketable degree in a field such as business, management, computers etc.
 
Why are we worried about extra time for ATP, most pilots are going to get it anyway long before the airlines are an option.
 
JoseCuervo said:
That is funny that you somehow hope to convince somebody that schools in Lubbock Texas and Louisville are somehow academic powerhouses.
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"Powerhouses"? No, I never said that nor did I want to say it. OTOH, they ain't outhouses, either, as you seem to suggest. Or are you one of those Ivy League elitists who feel that any degree from outside that conference is to be dismissed without further thought?

If the OP can't get into good schools and has to settle for lower-tier schools like you did,
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The school at which I earned my baccalaureate ranks 28th on the USN&WR list. How about you?

he should still look to find ones close and cheap to his current location, and not going into debt and relocating to UND or some Compass Directional University that nobody will ever care about.
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You think you can find some college that is both cheap and close to the OP's location which ranks better than the schools I mentioned? I'm guessing that anything "cheap" is at best an unranked Regional, and maybe less.

By the way, would you consider the 30th ranked University of North Carolina to be "some Compass Directional University that nobody will ever care about" as you so dismiss UND? We're not talking about the University of Southern North Dakota at Hoople, here.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Why are we worried about extra time for ATP, most pilots are going to get it anyway long before the airlines are an option.
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Because under the new rules, you will need an ATP of some type just to be a co-pilot with a regional. I suspect most will want that job at 1000 hours rather than waiting another year or two to get 1500. Keep in mind that regionals have over the last 10-15 years hired a lot of 500-hour CP's, and with that option no longer available, they will be scrambling for ATP-R's.
 
What Ron says is very true.

Keep in mind that the university program that saves you 500 hrs might cost more, maybe much more. One will have to weigh the costs and benefits. Either way, you'll be instructing or flying some other low wage job to get to the 1000/1500 hr mark. Those student loans won't pay themselves. On the other hand, seniority is still king. The sooner you start, the more senior you'll be. That's why it's really a personal choice. Only you can make that choice.


Ron Levy said:
Because under the new rules, you will need an ATP of some type just to be a co-pilot with a regional. I suspect most will want that job at 1000 hours rather than waiting another year or two to get 1500. Keep in mind that regionals have over the last 10-15 years hired a lot of 500-hour CP's, and with that option no longer available, they will be scrambling for ATP-R's.
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One advantage of the pilot programs at those schools not previously mentioned is they often have links to regionals to provide a pipeline into the right seat of an RJ, e.g., Arizona State's deal with Mesa Pilot Development. That can move you to the head of the hiring line.
 
Ron Levy said:
"Powerhouses"? No, I never said that nor did I want to say it. OTOH, they ain't outhouses, either, as you seem to suggest. Or are you one of those Ivy League elitists who feel that any degree from outside that conference is to be dismissed without further thought?
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Nope, I never said they were "outhouses", but if it makes you feel like you are effective at word gaming my comments by falsely attributing comments to me, then please proceed.

Ron Levy said:
The school at which I earned my baccalaureate ranks 28th on the USN&WR list. How about you?
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Haha..... Living in the past just a bit are you? That is funny you are clinging to some current ranking of a school that you sat in classes many decades ago. As if somehow the current ranking validates you. I have no idea where the University I graduated from is ranked, nor the school that was kind enough to bestow on me a graduate degree. Since it has been more than 2 decades since I last wrote them tuition checks, I don't see the relevance to my personal self-worth. I did scratch one of them a check today for some sort of fund raising campaign that they were kind enough to mail me a pretty letter asking for some of my money. How about you? (see what I did there??)



Ron Levy said:
You think you can find some college that is both cheap and close to the OP's location which ranks better than the schools I mentioned? I'm guessing that anything "cheap" is at best an unranked Regional, and maybe less.
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Yep, I do think I could find "some college that is both cheap and close to the OP's location" without even knowing where he is located. I am confident one of his original school choices included Out of State Tuition, for a "run of the mill" school like your Alma mater. Likely both of them had expensive tuition. And, it ain't difficult to find better schools than those, likely closer, and cheaper.




Ron Levy said:
By the way, would you consider the 30th ranked University of North Carolina to be "some Compass Directional University that nobody will ever care about" as you so dismiss UND? We're not talking about the University of Southern North Dakota at Hoople, here.
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Yep, there are quite a few University of North Carolinas, and I would quickly dismiss the vast majority of them for somebody taking on debt and relocating for an poor education like your Louisville experience.

But, please tell us, how much debt would you advocate some kid take to go to Compass Directional University?
 
I graduated college with a good GPA from a top 30 school (ASU's WP Carey School of Business) with a Business degree (concentration in legal studies). I started flying when I was 21 in my junior year of college. When I graduated (it took me 9 semesters FYI) I had my CFI and was working on my II. Yes, if I want to go to the airlines (and I don't!) I'll need 1,500 hours. But that's OK. Because all my eggs aren't in one basket, and that's the way I like it. If you lose your medical and your degree is in professional flight you're screwed.

Also from talking to others, they feel like going to ERAU, UND or similar they missed out on some of the flight training experience. The focus there is so much "Get your ratings and go to the airlines!" that you miss out on the best flying there is. Trying to skip the "boring" single engine, 120kt cross countries is trying to skip out on much of the adventure of flight.
 
Ron Levy said:
One advantage of the pilot programs at those schools
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Having been on both sides of this equation, I can tell you that coming from the inside as an employee with the same chops (ratings) will open a HELL of a lot of doors for you.

When I graduated from college after 4 years with the airline in maintenance, they offered me a right seat without going through the rest of the busswha.

I turned it down to go engineer the landing radar for Apollo, and I never looked back. THe airline was fun and games and hell of a lot of good looking females after your skin, so go for it if that is your dream.

Mine was different (cf Frost "The Road Not Taken") and I'm living my dream. Go for yours.
 
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