Colgan Q400 Down near KBUF?

dmccormack said:
We must have posted at the same time. :smile:
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Oops... :)

It seems that the immediate accident sequence started at #8 and if they had done something then they could have prevented the whole thing.

8. Explicit cues associated with the impending stick shaker onset, including the decreasing margin between indicated airspeed and the low-speed cue, the airspeed trend vector pointing downward into the low-speed cue, the changing color of the numbers on the airplane’s indicated airspeed display, and the airplane’s excessive nose-up pitch attitude, were presented on the flight instruments with adequate time for the pilots to initiate corrective action, but neither pilot responded to the presence of these cues.
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dmccormack said:
The difference is when nasty incidents lead to the deaths of 50 people.
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Very true as to the magnatude but bad medicine can kill people and bad lawyering can put people in Jail or send them to the death chamber as well. But you point is taken.

[qoute=dmccormack;554251] The PF in the BUF crash pulled back when warned of an impending stall.

What?!?![/quote]

Dan I thought that was the proper ( and counter intuitive) thing to do when it is a tail plane stall.

Edit: Just read the rest of the thread. I'll have to read the reports. Perhaps it wasn't a tail plane stall. sigh, I'm a bit confused have to go back and read again.
 
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AdamZ said:
Dan I thought that was the proper ( and counter intuitive) thing to do when it is a tail plane stall.

Edit: Just read the rest of the thread. I'll have to read the reports. Perhaps it wasn't a tail plane stall. sigh, I'm a bit confused have to go back and read again.
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That was the center of much early informed speculation. The report eliminates that concern from serious consideration and lays more blame on stall recovery training and rest/recovery policies.
 
So how do they make that determination? Is it the Flight Data recorder? I mean not to be morbid but when the plane slams into the ground the ice has got to shatter off the plane and the ensuing fire would melt it. Is it just a process of elimination?
 
Watching the Frontline show online this AM and noticed the name Matt on a schedule board in the crash pad they showed.

Tell me Teller, was that you? I wont tell.
 
AdamZ said:
So how do they make that determination? Is it the Flight Data recorder? I mean not to be morbid but when the plane slams into the ground the ice has got to shatter off the plane and the ensuing fire would melt it. Is it just a process of elimination?
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Not sure. I'm sure they consider reports of ice on previous and subsequent arrivals, though.
 
AdamZ said:
So how do they make that determination? Is it the Flight Data recorder? I mean not to be morbid but when the plane slams into the ground the ice has got to shatter off the plane and the ensuing fire would melt it. Is it just a process of elimination?
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I would expect it would be fairly easy to evaluate how the airplane reacted to the control inputs using data from the the flight recorder.

If it reacts just like an airplane with no ice then it probably didn't have a signficant amount of ice. If it reacted differently then there was probably ice, a mechanical problem, or something else that was affecting how the airplane flew.

Brian
 
brcase said:
I would expect it would be fairly easy to evaluate how the airplane reacted to the control inputs using data from the the flight recorder.

If it reacts just like an airplane with no ice then it probably didn't have a signficant amount of ice. If it reacted differently then there was probably ice, a mechanical problem, or something else that was affecting how the airplane flew.

Brian
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There's a NTSB animation on YouTube. Shows pretty dramatically what happens when you're completely oblivious to deteriorating airspeed, then pull up instead of reducing AOA...


Trapper John
 
That was really scary to watch, especially considering how fast everything went wrong. Was the final cause bad speed control, stall, improper reaction to stall?
 
sanforce said:
That was really scary to watch, especially considering how fast everything went wrong. Was the final cause bad speed control, stall, improper reaction to stall?
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tonycondon said:
yes..
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And that is why one has to look at training.

In the Frontline piece there was an interview with a former Colgan check airman who was there when the Q400 came on line. What he said was a great concern. That was no one was really qualified to fly the plane, even him, and he was being told to supervise transitioning aircrews.

The other item of concern was that there was a capt who falsified a W&B calculation. The FO reported him, the FAA revoked the Capt's certificate and the airline went to bat for the Capt who had clearly violated procedures. The NTSB was very concerned.

There was also a very good point made about training. That is the firewall between the major and their regional needs to be broken down so that the majors can also help the regional pilot become better trained. The point being that the level of training at the majors is much higher than at the regionals, with the major's brand on the tail of the regionals, the customer is buying the safety of the major and the regional should be at that level. It is a good point.
 
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