Cold Wx Flying

dmccormack

dmccormack

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Display name:
Dan Mc
Looks like I'll be flying in some coooold air tomorrow (9 F at 0700 local)

I don't have the STC'ed air restrainer offered for the Chief, so I probably won't see normal oil operating temps in less than an hour's time.

So I may just have to fly longer.

:D

Anyone else flying behind an engine that has a hard time getting warm when it's cold?
 
The 172 I was flying this afternoon in temps in the low 30s didn't get particularly warm. 1/4 scale on the oil temp was about as high as I saw it shooting T&Gs for an hour.
 
I decided to reschedule the ferry flight. Weather was not exactly as forecast, and I decided I wouldn't have much fun freezing in my tiny, poorly heated cockpit (I was going to use up a personal day and fly, fly, fly and then finish by moving to new hangar at KWAY).

I've flown the Chief with temps around 25 and after an hour my feet were approaching frostbite (rest of me was ok, but definately cold). I'm not good enough to fly a tailwheel with boots -- I wear sneakers, so I can feel the pedals.

Oh well. I suppose it is somewhat hard on the engine to fly with the oil barely reaching operating temps anyway.

:dunno:
 
dmccormack said:
I decided to reschedule the ferry flight. Weather was not exactly as forecast, and I decided I wouldn't have much fun freezing in my tiny, poorly heated cockpit (I was going to use up a personal day and fly, fly, fly and then finish by moving to new hangar at KWAY).

I've flown the Chief with temps around 25 and after an hour my feet were approaching frostbite (rest of me was ok, but definately cold). I'm not good enough to fly a tailwheel with boots -- I wear sneakers, so I can feel the pedals.

Oh well. I suppose it is somewhat hard on the engine to fly with the oil barely reaching operating temps anyway.

:dunno:
Click to expand...
20F is about the coldest I like to fly the Porterfield but it's usually not my feet that get cold first. If that's your only problem you need this:

http://www.hammacher.com/Product/71850?source=FROOGLE
 
LOL!

I bought my wife a pair a few years ago since her feet are always cold. But the socks were too thick and she didn't like how they felt. Oh well....

I wear two layers when hunting or doing other outside cold weather stuff -- a thin, polypro liner with an thick wool sock outer layer. It has to be VERY cold before my feet get cold.

But that's wearing boots, of course....

That's a good idea to have limits, and I think I'll stick to temps over 25F in the Chief until I get the cold weather air restictor baffle in place, for the sake of my feet and the sake of the oil.
 
In the Aztec in the winter I'll normally wear jeans, two layers of socks (including some wool socks), a sweater over my shirt and a jacket over the sweater, with gloves handy. That usually keeps me plenty warm. So long as it's daylight and above about 10F out, I'm fine. If it's night and below 10F, I usually add fleece-lined jeans to the mix. Keeps me warm.

It's not actually that cold in my plane, but I'm a wimp and really, really, hate cold.
 
dmccormack said:
Then whatchya doin in Williamsport??? :eek:
Click to expand...

Williamsport isn't that cold. Except for one day last winter when it was -20F out, it's normally only around 15-30 in the winter. I can tolerate that so long as I don't spend too much time outside and have plenty of access to heaters.

But the real answer: Because I'm paid to be here. If I had my way, I'd be someplace warmer.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Williamsport isn't that cold. Except for one day last winter when it was -20F out, it's normally only around 15-30 in the winter. I can tolerate that so long as I don't spend too much time outside and have plenty of access to heaters.

But the real answer: Because I'm paid to be here. If I had my way, I'd be someplace warmer.
Click to expand...

In April of 1986 I traveled from Houghton, NY (near Rochester) to Lancaster, PA on a Suzuki GS450. Until I reached the crest of the big hill on 15 south of Williamsport everything was grey and there were still patches of snow.

As soon as I passed Sunbury I noticed buds and green. By the time I was in Lancaster it looked like spring!

I took the teaching job and we lived there 16 years.

Williamsport has a bit of a checkered history for my son and I -- our first canoe trip from Clearfield to Harrisburg we paddled the 12 miles of slack water to the dam on Memorial Day -- temperature was 93 and the lake was filled with powerboats, water skiers, and jet skis -- not the day to be paddling a canoe. When we arrived at the dam the promised portage was non-existent. We finally hauled everything up one side of the rip rap and slid down the other.

What made that day tolerable was the promise of dining at Wegmans (We'd been on the river 5 days by then). We both chowed down on Wegmans subs, fruit, and Chinese food, and carried back water, more fruit, and cannolis.

We put back in about 3 PM and didn't make camp until 830 PM (some wide spot on river right not far from the airport, but as remote a place as you can imagine so close to so much).

We did the trip again this year and it was much easier -- we paddled the lake on memorial Day weekend friday and the temperature never exceeeded 80.
 
When I was in college I rode my Kawasaki KZ700 and Suzuki Bandit 1200 in the winter a lot. This included on some fairly decent trips around Indiana. Once I rode the Bandit to Indianapolis to pick up a customer's car (about a 75 minute drive each way). I had the heat on full blast for the drive back, having left my winter riding gear on, and was still cold when I got back home. It must have been 90 degrees in the car.

I spent no shortage of time working on cars outside in the winter, too. Another college thing when I had no garage and the work needed to get done. The one time that was really bad was when I had a fuel pump die on me on a drive between Indiana and New Jersey (it died on the western end of Pennsylvania) and I had to lie on my back in the frigid cold changing it (in-tank pump).

Exposure to temperature extremes is not fun, even when it's not all that extreme, but enough to make your body temperature fluctuate outside of its norm. I pretty much always dress warmly now. My problems in the past were primarily lack of appropriate gear. I'm rarely unprepared these days for such events... but I do need warmer motorcycle gloves for winter.
 
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Try cutting urethane around a windshield in sub 30 degree temps.

Now that sucks.
 
I've yet to encounter gloves sufficient for winter riding. The best I was ever able to manage was latex under wool under my heaviest winter gloves. Even that stopped working below freezing, although I could still work the controls--barely.

I think the only thing likely to work is the heated gear they sell. I've just never ridden the kind of bikes you can plug that stuff into.
 
There are some snowmobile gloves that look like they'd do the job. My biggest problem is that I'm just not interested in paying that much for it.
 
SkyHog said:
Try cutting urethane around a windshield in sub 30 degree temps.

Now that sucks.
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Coldest temps I've expeienced were near Massena, NY on January 4th, 1981: -38 F (Not wind chill, actual temperature)

It didn't feel that cold because it was amazingly still.

But a week later back at Griffiss AFB winds were 30 MPH, temperature --minus 15. The entire base was limited outside exposure (3 minutes, IIRC) except for operations involving nukes.

I was on Guard duty outside a Nuclear Weapons Storage Igloo with a shotgun and a tiny hole in my parka from which I breathed and looked for terrorists. They were smarter than we.

I joked that I was "getting pretty cold out here sarge and I'm the only one with a shotgun..."

5 minutes later we were back in the Maintenance building, "You ok?"
 
dmccormack said:
I've flown the Chief with temps around 25 and after an hour my feet were approaching frostbite (rest of me was ok, but definately cold). I'm not good enough to fly a tailwheel with boots -- I wear sneakers, so I can feel the pedals.
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Trade it in on a Cessna 120 - the bottoms of my shoes got so hot I used to pull my feet back to cool them off before I had to use the rudder.

On the other hand, from the knees up there was no sensation of any heat in the cabin...:nonod:
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Trade it in on a Cessna 120 - the bottoms of my shoes got so hot I used to pull my feet back to cool them off before I had to use the rudder.

On the other hand, from the knees up there was no sensation of any heat in the cabin...:nonod:
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Sounds like my '97 Jeep Wrangler -- heater melted your shoes, torso froze.

I was able to fly the Chief from MGW to WAY this afternoon (Calm before the storm).

It's a nice T hangar on a field with a parallel grass trip.

Yay! :yesnod:
 
Woosies! The Big Dog of cold weather is here, and will now tell you about cold.

Minus 40 (F and C meet at M40) and skiing down a hill outside Quebec city at Christmas circa 1993. 30mph down the hill + M40 = windchill of -80F !!!!
They closed the hill after a few hours, saying they were afraid the machinery would break!
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Woosies! The Big Dog of cold weather is here, and will now tell you about cold.

Minus 40 (F and C meet at M40) and skiing down a hill outside Quebec city at Christmas circa 1993. 30mph down the hill + M40 = windchill of -80F !!!!
They closed the hill after a few hours, saying they were afraid the machinery would break!
Click to expand...

Was that Mount St Anne?
 
dmccormack said:
Was that Mount St Anne?
Click to expand...

not sure. all the signs had become brittle and snapped off.

The coldest I recall, in an airplane, was in Texas! I was moving a C150 right after a blue norther came through west Texas; I was eastcoast-bound. It was about m20 at altitude. I found out later this airplane had its cabin heater wired shut; it was from a place that never sees cold. Also, the wingroot vents kept popping open. Bitter temps, drafty as a windtunnel, plus inactivity for a couple hours added up to enroute hypothermia! The windows all frosted over solid from my breath, so most of the flight was 'internal' IMC. I had pulled out the emergency space blanket and had on all the extra clothes which I'd packed. When I got out of the airplane at the first stop, I was stiff as a board and creaked my way to the fbo , could barely chirp out a fuel request to the line guy. Sat in front of the heater with a hot drink for over an hour just to get my heart restarted and core temp above that of liquid nitrogen. Found some duct tape and sealed over the root vent inlets before I left...and I was almost out of the front so things improved from there but my joints have never recovered.
 
dmccormack said:
Looks like I'll be flying in some coooold air tomorrow (9 F at 0700 local)

I don't have the STC'ed air restrainer offered for the Chief, so I probably won't see normal oil operating temps in less than an hour's time.

So I may just have to fly longer.

:D

Anyone else flying behind an engine that has a hard time getting warm when it's cold?
Click to expand...


Cold? +9F cold? Not here in Alberta. We stop flying the school's airplanes at -25C, which is -13F. This winter we've had -38C (-36F) and windchills of -50C (-58F). Not too far north of us Edmonton registered -46C and a windchill of -58C (-51F and -72F respectively) a few weeks ago. That's cold. Death comes quickly to the careless.

Aircooled aircraft engines hate it. The combustion blowby gases contain water vapor that condenses in the cold case and lower cylinder walls, and this moisture mixes with the oil and forms acids that eat expensive engine parts. The oil never gets warm enough to boil off the water. Practicing forced approaches in such weather is asking for the real thing, since the engine cools off so much and might not respond in the overshoot.

And students hate it, too, but won't believe my story about the smoke freezing in the chimney one night, nor the one about not being able to talk outside because your words freeze and fall to the ground before the other guy can hear what you said. Makes for lots of noise when they all thaw out in the spring.

Dan
 
Flying in Canadian winters, C172 parked outside.
we had to
-drain oil and take home in gallon jugs, take batt home - leave both by furnace all night.
-arrive 2hrs before (often in dark, by car headlights), start chopping ice from around tires, scraping the inches of snow crust off airframe, put propane powered heater exhaust into top cowl.
-hand shovel 3 paths for tires to get out to packed snow taxiway.
-go inside, warm up with hot drink, come out and shovel/scrape more. Check to see if engine heater has cooked anything.
Reinstall batt and oil, yank preheater, give it a whirl.
Come back out, remove cowl, pull frosted spark plugs and warm them up (usually just the tops was enough)
Reinstall plugs, cowl, try again.
Prop turns twice and no start so get back out, tie plane back down, shovel place for car to get close, hook up cables and jump start.
Start!!
Wait til it will idle slow without quitting, then jump out and pull cables, get car out of way then go back into icebox cabin with rock hard frozen seats and wait til oil T shows a hint of life.
Stop engine, get out, preflight, put all the accoutrement away, change out of sweaty clothes, then go fly!
Dress like you will need to walk out, not for survival purposes but because the cabin will never get above -15C.
The cowl inlet had a home-made grill that occluded 80% of the ram air, it was the only way to get oil temp up to ~150, the guys with the factory winterizer said they never got theirs warm enough, some quit on final.
 
I don't have much to add to this thread, but the last "cold" day I went up (same day as my brother took this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0sg07A1244)) it was about 15F out without the windchill, so it was pretty close to 0. I was preflighting the plane and had my fingers underneath the aileron which was flipped up so that I could check to see that the safety wires were in and wired correctly. As I was doing that, a gust of wind caught the aileron and slammed it down on my fingers. I thought that was the end of my fingertips, but they remained functional and attached to fly another day :D
 
dmccormack said:
Anyone else flying behind an engine that has a hard time getting warm when it's cold?
Click to expand...

In the Luscombe we have a 1948 SB that allows a plate to be installed over our largest cowling vent during cold weather operations. There are also those contraptions that go around the oil sump. Lots of folks use duct tape over the other vents as needed.

I usually duct tape my windows closed to keep out the drafts and plug the wing root area with old socks.

Luscombe heaters are affectionately known as toe warmers :yesnod:.

Deb
 
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I use those little chemical heating pads for my toes. They work great! I've been flying with temps to 0F. I'm headed out to the airport and it is 10F.

I like to wear coveralls / winter gear when flying in the winter. I would hate to survive an off field landing only to freeze to death walking to a farm house. :yesnod:
 
N1347B said:
In the Luscombe we have a 1948 SB that allows a plate to be installed over our largest cowling vent during cold weather operations. There are also those contraptions that go around the oil sump. Lots of folks use duct tape over the other vents as needed.

I usually duct tape my windows closed to keep out the drafts and plug the wing root area with old socks.

Luscombe heaters are affectionately known as toe warmers :yesnod:.

Deb
Click to expand...


Duct tape is recommended by some of the northern Aeronca guys -- I'll have to try that...
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Flying in Canadian winters, C172 parked outside.
we had to
-drain oil and take home in gallon jugs, take batt home - leave both by furnace all night.
-arrive 2hrs before (often in dark, by car headlights), start chopping ice from around tires, scraping the inches of snow crust off airframe, put propane powered heater exhaust into top cowl.
-hand shovel 3 paths for tires to get out to packed snow taxiway.
-go inside, warm up with hot drink, come out and shovel/scrape more. Check to see if engine heater has cooked anything.
Reinstall batt and oil, yank preheater, give it a whirl.
Come back out, remove cowl, pull frosted spark plugs and warm them up (usually just the tops was enough)
Reinstall plugs, cowl, try again.
Prop turns twice and no start so get back out, tie plane back down, shovel place for car to get close, hook up cables and jump start.
Start!!
Wait til it will idle slow without quitting, then jump out and pull cables, get car out of way then go back into icebox cabin with rock hard frozen seats and wait til oil T shows a hint of life.
Stop engine, get out, preflight, put all the accoutrement away, change out of sweaty clothes, then go fly!
Dress like you will need to walk out, not for survival purposes but because the cabin will never get above -15C.
The cowl inlet had a home-made grill that occluded 80% of the ram air, it was the only way to get oil temp up to ~150, the guys with the factory winterizer said they never got theirs warm enough, some quit on final.
Click to expand...

Hey, all you guys who dream of being bush pilots in Alaska or the Yukon: Read the above and consider. Low pay, excruciating and frustrating cold, long winters, very short days in the winter, ice fog and all the rest. Summers are great, except for the bugs in some places, but real short. A few guys thrive on it but they're mostly people who grew up in such places. Those of us who come from suburbia will find it isolated and difficult.

Dan
 
Cold Canadian Prairies morning. Climb into your car. Find the battery weak. Go find someone and get a boost. Warm the car, drive to the airport. Get stuck in the snowdrifts on the access road. Slog through the snow to the hangar and get a shovel. Slog back and dig the car out. Get the car to the hangar, and this time plug in the block heater so it'll start when you want to go home.

Find the airplane blocked in by the snow the plow left in front of it. Dig it out. Try to push the airplane to the fuel pump. Airplane won't move too easily; wheel bearing grease all frozen stiff. Find three more guys to help push. Go inside to thaw out hands and face. Find office cold because the wind blew the pilot light out on the furnace. Relight the furnace. Go to make coffee and find the water frozen. Put the jug of ice in front of the furnace. Get the fuel key, go outside and fill the airplane's tanks really slowly (because the pump is half frozen and the mechanical meter is three-quarters frozen) and watch that you don't rub your clothing against the hose or airplane or you'll get static sparks. And the wind is blowing while you're doing this so that you're half dead when you're done. Go inside and thaw out hands and face. Jug is still frozen. Go out and scrape ice off airplane. Preflight airplane. Can't find ladder; dig it out of snowbank where the plow truck shoved it in deep and bent it. Go into the hangar and straighten out ladder. Go back out and finish preflighting. Get in cockpit and find the battery can't crank the engine because someone didn't plug the oil pan heater in last night. Kill the battery trying to start it. Take the cowl off and take the battery out. Go inside and put in on charge. Go into the office and thaw out hands and face. Go outside and look for extension cord; it's in the snowbank too, cut up by the plow blade. Go into the hangar and fix it. Go into the office and thaw out hands and face. Jug is still frozen, so no coffee. Go out and plug in oil pan heater. Stand around waiting for battery charger and pan heater to do their stuff. Go get battery, put it in, and reinstall cowl. Get in and start airplane. Wait 20 minutes for CHT and oil temp to start up. Taxi out to runway and find that the wind's been drifting snow across it and now the drifts are too deep to fight with, and it's 3 pm and getting dark. Well, tomorrow, maybe?

And now, these days, the students come into the hangar in the morning (where the thermostat is set at around 50F) to do their preflighting, and they say, "Brrr! It's cold in here."

Dan
 
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Dan Thomas said:
Cold Canadian Prairies morning. Climb into your car. Find the battery weak. Go find someone and get a boost. Warm the car, drive to the airport. Get stuck in the snowdrifts on the access road. Slog through the snow to the hangar and get a shovel. Slog back and dig the car out. Get the car to the hangar, and this time plug in the block heater so it'll start when you want to go home.

Find the airplane blocked in by the snow the plow left in front of it. Dig it out. Try to push the airplane to the fuel pump. Airplane won't move too easily; wheel bearing grease all frozen stiff. Find three more guys to help push. Go inside to thaw out hands and face. Find office cold because the wind blew the pilot light out on the furnace. Relight the furnace. Go to make coffee and find the water frozen. Put the jug of ice in front of the furnace. Get the fuel key, go outside and fill the airplane's tanks really slowly (because the pump is half frozen and the mechanical meter is three-quarters frozen) and watch that you don't rub your clothing against the hose or airplane or you'll get static sparks. And the wind is blowing while you're doing this so that you're half dead when you're done. Go inside and thaw out hands and face. Jug is still frozen. Go out and scrape ice off airplane. Preflight airplane. Can't find ladder; dig it out of snowbank where the plow truck shoved it in deep and bent it. Go into the hangar and straighten out ladder. Go back out and finish preflighting. Get in cockpit and find the battery can't crank the engine because someone didn't plug the oil pan heater in last night. Kill the battery trying to start it. Take the cowl off and take the battery out. Go inside and put in on charge. Go into the office and thaw out hands and face. Go outside and look for extension cord; it's in the snowbank too, cut up by the plow blade. Go into the hangar and fix it. Go into the office and thaw out hands and face. Jug is still frozen, so no coffee. Go out and plug in oil pan heater. Stand around waiting for battery charger and pan heater to do their stuff. Go get battery, put it in, and reinstall cowl. Get in and start airplane. Wait 20 minutes for CHT and oil temp to start up. Taxi out to runway and find that the wind's been drifting snow across it and now the drifts are too deep to fight with, and it's 3 pm and getting dark. Well, tomorrow, maybe?

And now, these days, the students come into the hangar in the morning (where the thermostat is set at around 50F) to do their preflighting, and they say, "Brrr! It's cold in here."

Dan
Click to expand...

I feel like my internal temperature dropped a few degrees just reading that :eek:
 
AKZ222-021500-
MIDDLE TANANA VALLEY-
INCLUDING...FAIRBANKS...FORT WAINWRIGHT...EIELSON AFB...ESTER...
NORTH POLE...MOOSE CREEK...TWO RIVERS...FOX...CHATANIKA...CHENA
HOT SPRINGS...SOURDOUGH CAMP
354 PM AKST FRI JAN 1 2010
.TONIGHT...BECOMING PARTLY CLOUDY. PATCHY ICE FOG. LOWS 20 TO
35 BELOW...EXCEPT AROUND 10 BELOW ON HILLTOPS. LIGHT WINDS.
.SATURDAY...PARTLY CLOUDY. PATCHY ICE FOG. HIGHS 20 TO 25
BELOW...EXCEPT AROUND 5 BELOW ON HILLTOPS. LIGHT WINDS.
.SATURDAY NIGHT...PARTLY CLOUDY. PATCHY ICE FOG. LOWS MOSTLY 20
TO 35 BELOW. LIGHT WINDS.
.SUNDAY...PARTLY CLOUDY. HIGHS 5 TO 15 BELOW. LIGHT WINDS.
.SUNDAY NIGHT...PARTLY CLOUDY. LOWS 15 TO 30 BELOW. LIGHT WINDS.
 
IR flight scheduled at 0800 Saturday - I think it's time oral checkride prep instead:

HAZARDOUS WEATHER OUTLOOK...UPDATED
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE MILWAUKEE/SULLIVAN WI
342 PM CST FRI JAN 1 2010

WIZ046-047-051-052-056>060-062>072-021030-
MARQUETTE-GREEN LAKE-FOND DU LAC-SHEBOYGAN-SAUK-COLUMBIA-DODGE-
WASHINGTON-OZAUKEE-IOWA-DANE-JEFFERSON-WAUKESHA-MILWAUKEE-
LAFAYETTE-GREEN-ROCK-WALWORTH-RACINE-KENOSHA-
342 PM CST FRI JAN 1 2010

THIS HAZARDOUS WEATHER OUTLOOK IS FOR PORTIONS OF EAST CENTRAL
WISCONSIN...SOUTH CENTRAL WISCONSIN AND SOUTHEAST WISCONSIN.

.DAY ONE...TONIGHT

A COLD ARCTIC AIR MASS WILL SETTLE INTO THE REGION...BRINGING WIND
CHILLS OF 10 BELOW TO 25 BELOW ZERO TONIGHT. A WIND CHILL ADVISORY
IS IN EFFECT FOR SOUTH CENTRAL WISCONSIN FROM 9 PM TONIGHT UNTIL 10
AM SATURDAY MORNING.

.DAYS TWO THROUGH SEVEN...SATURDAY THROUGH THURSDAY

THE PERSISTENT FLOW OF ARCTIC AIR ON NORTHWEST WINDS WILL CAUSE
WIND CHILLS OF 10 TO 25 BELOW ZERO SATURDAY MORNING...AND AGAIN
SATURDAY NIGHT INTO SUNDAY MORNING. WIND CHILLS DURING THE DAY ON
SATURDAY AND SUNDAY WILL GENERALLY BE IN THE SINGLE DIGITS BELOW
ZERO. A WIND CHILL ADVISORY IS IN EFFECT FOR SOUTH CENTRAL WISCONSIN
UNTIL 10 AM SATURDAY MORNING.

.SPOTTER INFORMATION STATEMENT...

SPOTTER ACTIVATION WILL NOT BE NEEDED TONIGHT.
Click to expand...
 
20 below F at my house in central Iowa this morning
 
It was -7F today in Lincoln, and I went flying for an hour. My desity altitude calculator said -850'!
 
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